DeaconLance

Nay. Arrangements for seperate services for Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Mormons, etc. should be made as at National Jamboree.

"I'll change my attitude towards the BSA when the BSA stops denigrating and excluding atheists, not before. I don't consider it bigoted to be against an organization that denigrates a class of people." So you don't believe in freedom of association? You don't have to like the BSA or its policies but the first amendment gives organizations the right to decide who its members will be.

How many people would sit through the leadership course if no beads were involved? My guess is very few. I also guess National knows this and that is why the beads are now attached to a leadership course rather than a Scoutcraft and Patrol Method course as BP intended.

sherminator505, No. However, in a unit with all female leadership (it is a possibilty) it will not exist.

To try and equate the Western definiton of atheism with the fact that some forms of Taoism, Buddhism, and Hinduism do not have a god in the Western sense is short-sighted. They are belief systems that believe in a higher path, a spirituality, and an afterlife and the BSA accepts that as sufficient.

scoutdad_tx, It is not apples and oranges. The OA is a service society as well, the Brotherhood of Cheerful Service. It exists to promote service to a Scout's unit and Council Camp. Which is perhaps another reason why Venturers should not be inducted. The Venturing outdoor program is high adventure oriented and does not usually involve Council Camps. The Corps of Discovery is based on Servant Leadership, the OA is as well and has used that motto since before Venturing was founded. The Corp may not intend itself to be an honor society, but ultimately as a recognition that is granted it takes on that characteristic.

BadenP, If my vote had mattered, I would not have voted for female Scoutmasters or allowed them in the OA, simply on the principle boys need male role models. Young Scouts also need older Scout role models, therefore I am against OA going CO-ED. But I am also a realist and I believe in and love Scouting even if management chooses a path different than I would like. Female Scoutmasters and Adult Arrowmen are here and I accept them and realize they are many excellent people among them.

Eamonn, Penn's Woods should never have sold Roaring Run. It was a beautiful camp with good facilities. That move never made sense to me.

sherminator505, OA is part of the Boy Scouting division. Boy Scouting is not Co-Ed, I do not want the Boy Scout division to go Co-Ed. That said I would not quit or make my sons quit if it did go Co-Ed. My reason has to do with development. Girls are generally more mature in the middle school/high school age group and because of this they tend to take over Co-Ed organizations in this age group. I see it in Church youth groups, I see it in school organizations, and I see it in Venturing. Boy Scouting needs to be boys only so they can come into their own without the added issues that having girls around will cause. Boys that do want a Co-Ed experience have only to wait till 13 and 9th grade to join Venturing. Since OA was founded within and is an integral program of Boy Scouting but not Venturing and Boy Scouting is not Co-Ed, I agree with the policy of no Venturers who were not Boy Scouts. Now a question for you. Why not support a seperate Venturing program like Corps of Discovery?

Many seem hung up on the Scouting's National Honor Society which is a bad subtitle for the Order. I remember when I was inducted it has the subtitle was National Brotherhood of Scout Honor Campers. The purpose of the Order is to recognize those campers who best exemplify the Scout Oath and Law (not the Venturing Oath and Code) in their daily lives, to develop and maintain camping traditions and spirit, to pormote Scout camping, and to crystalize the Scout habit of helpfulness into a life purpose of leadership cheerful service to others. Camping is inseperable from the Boy Scout program, one cannot advance without doing it. Venturing has five activity areas only one of which involves camping and even then the Outdoor Bronze and Ranger Awards may be earned with a minimum of camping. Review the Ranger 8 core and 18 electives, only 3 of the cores and 2 of the electives require any camping. Boy Scouting and Venturing programs are different programs. If it is felt that Venturing needs an honor society let them have their own. I suggest supporting the Corps of Discovery. http://www.sageventure.com/COD/

LIBob, Religious Emblems are not BSA awards. They are awards of the faiths bestowing them that the BSA permits to be worn on the scout unifom. The BSA does not create Religious Emblems. It is up to the faith to create the program and award then approach the BSA for official recognition.

BSA Religious Principles (Reprinted from the 1992 edition of BSA's Advancement Guidelines: Council and District Functions.) The Boy Scouts of America has a definite position on religious principles. The following interpretative statement may help clarify this position. The Boy Scouts of America: 1. Does not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion. 2. Does not require membership in a religious organization or association for enrollment in the movement but does prefer, and strongly encourages, membership and participation in the religious programs and activities of a church, synagogue, or other religious association. 3. Respects the convictions of those who exercise their constitutional freedom to practice religion as individuals without formal membership in organized religious organizations. In a few cases, there are those who, by conviction, do not feel it necessary to formally belong to an organized form of religion and seek to practice religion in accordance with their own personal convictions. Every effort should be made to counsel with the boy and his parents to determine the true story of the religious convictions and practices as related to advancement in Scouting. Religious organizations have commended the Boy Scouts of America for encouraging youth to participate in organized religious activities. However, these same organizations reject any form of compulsion to enforce conformity to establish religious practices. 4. If a boy says he is a member of a religious body, the standards by which he should be evaluated are those of that group. This is why an advancement committee usually requests a reference from his religious leader to indicate whether he has lived up to their expectations. Throughout life, Scouts are associated with people of different faiths. Scouts believe in religious freedom, respecting others whose religion may differ from theirs. Scouting believes in the right of all to worship God in their own way.

I think the problem is Woodbadge was originally about teaching scoutcraft and patrol method. It was the pinnacle of training in these subjects and the beads designated someone as a scouter who could pass on that knowledge to his scouts. Then the BSA decides they want a top notch business model management/leadership training course, which is fine, but they co-opted the Woodbadge name and insignia as the carrot by which to entice scouters to take the course. The leadership training course should have been a seperate program with different insignia. They could have created a new award to entice scouters to take the course and let Woodbadge remain about scoutcraft and patrol method.

The old DLTA and DLCTA were small chest medals like the Scouter's Key. They replaced them in 1988 with the neck medals but those were discontinued in 2001. Now there are only the knots. Neck medals would not count against the chest medal limit but then how many neck medals should one wear without looking ridiculous? I would think two.

I didn't leave it off. What I mean is the limit is 5 but the only way you could fit 5 is if they were all training medals. You can only fit 3 if you wear Eagle, Silver, Ranger, Religious Emblem, etc. due to their larger size.

Considering that the Insignia Guide limits chest medals to 5*, I think the BSA should limit knots to six and reinstate some sort of precedence to them as well as removing a knot once the next higher is earned. Wearing what you earn is fine but at some point it becomes overkill and you start looking like a third world dictator. *In reality the only way to squeeze 5 on is if an adult was wearing the Scouter's Key, Scouter's Training Award, Den Leader's Training Award, Den Leader Coach's Training Award, and the Skipper's Key other wise your looking at a max of three medals.

I use a short piece of leather lace with a small safety pin. The pin goes through one end of the lace, the back top of the patch, then the other end of the lace.

pohsuwed, I can agree with you that an Eagle who earns all merit badges should be recognized. I disagree that it should be a square knot. The original reason for squareknot emblems was to provide an easy to wear recognition in place of medals. This remains largely the case today with a few exceptions. I propose, rather than a new squareknot, a new device to be worn on the Eagle squareknot. Perhaps silver crossed palms, like the bronze crossed palms that go on the Honor Medal in extreme risk cases, to represent this achievement. This would probably be easier and cheaper for the BSA to produce since they would need so few of them. Fr. Deacon Lance

Just a shout out to the forum from a new guy. I am currently an Assistant Scoutmaster for my oldest (of 4) son's troop. I am an Eagle Scout and Brotherhood member of the Order of the Arrow. I am also a Byzantine Catholic Deacon and Chairman for the Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy of Pittsburgh's Committe on Scouting. Deacon Lance