de4bsa

The reason pros ask unit leaders to take on district responsibilities is b/c they are probably doing a good job within the unit, already have knowledge about the program, probably have an idea what the new job entails, and already have a relationship with the pro. It's not fair to the volunteer or necessarily the way it should be done, but it's much more convenient. What we (pros) probably should be doing is asking unit leaders to help us recruit someone else from their unit to take these positions. Of course, I had one CM tell me once that if he had a parent in his pack willing to do anything he had plenty of things that needed to be done within the pack. I really wish I could take a whole year and just focus on filling district level positions. Not worry about membership or new units, but just finding and training people for district positions. However, the job doesn't work like that so we are always looking for "quick fixes" so we can get back to membership, new units, and money.

"I am trying to figure out what your attempting to tell us and why? Is it for eliciting sympathy for the long day?" I thought I was very clear in why I made my post. I noticed some posts on here from volunteers who didn't understand the role of the DE or what they do on a daily basis. What part of that was hard to understand? Oh, and I'm not trying to elicit sympathy for the long day. I hardly know anyone anymore who doesn't work a lot irregardless of their line of work, so I wasn't looking for anything out of that post.

I think, in general, anyone who has ever been a DE would read my post and think, "Been there, done that." I think your "typical" work days in this job vary depending on what time of year it is. In the fall and late spring, 11 and 12 hour work days are the norm. Your days are spent doing boy talks at schools, meetings with perspective C.O.'s about starting new units, talking on the phone to volunteers, etc. Your nights are spent going to school nights and signing kids up in addition to monthly roundtable and District Committee meetings. However, in the summer my schedule slows go down quite a bit. I still set up meetings with perspective C.O.'s laying the groundwork for starting new units in the fall and I'm still working toward my FOS goal but there really isn't that much going on. Most units have their week of summer camp or day camp, but most don't meet on a weekly basis in the summer in my district so I'm not in contact w/ my volunteers as often. In the winter and early part of spring I try to keep my work days to the 9-5 variety as much as possible. There are always going to be evenings and weekends in this job, but I try my best to keep all of my meetings during a normal work day. I don't know if the day I described was "typical" but it wasn't all that unusual either.

"So, and I am not trying to be smug here, if you have a good District Committee and a group of District Volunteers that know the program and can get the job done you don't need to pay $70,000+ for a DE & DD. So no FOS as long as you do good Popcorn Sale to run the Council, wait with out DEs and DDs.... AH! an endless circle." You're probably on the right track with this sentiment more than you know. Early in my tenure my Field Director told me if I truly did my job well that if/when I left for another position the scouting program would continue to grow and prosper without a professional even being there. Volunteer committees would organize everything. New units, membership drives, the district popcorn sale, camps, FOS campaigns, everything. My district has never come close to operating like this so I must not be doing a very good job. During my first training in Dallas one of my instructors told a story about a local diner where a lot of his Unit Commissioners would go have breakfast. He said he would usually swing by and start mentioning different things he had to do that day. Inevitably, each UC would start volunteering to take care of some of those things and, before he knew it, his schedule was clear. Talked about sometimes being on the golf course by noon. I'm sure he exaggerated quite a bit to make an impression on us naive newcomers to the profession, but he wanted us to know how important having a solid volunteer structure was. If you don't see the value of a professional my first guess would be that your district is probably in pretty good shape volunteer wise. I think my volunteers see the value of my position because I'm heavily involved in almost everything. I distribute and pickup charter packets, I do virtually all the recruiting for my units, I'm at most of the roundups helping sign up kids and recruit parents, I'm heavily involved in the planning of both my district's day camps (although I get a lot of help in this area), I distribute all of the popcorn packets and set the schedule for pickup times when the popcorn comes in, I attend most Roundtables (don't run them) and make announcements about pertinent district and council information, I'm the person they call when they have a question or problem, I set up leader trainings and often conduct them myself. About the only things I'm not heavily involved with are planning camporees or my district's Eagle Board. Even with all of that I know some units still don't see a pro's value. I know I have a few volunteers who think my job should pretty much consist of knocking on doors and getting more leadership for the units in my district or even filling in when a unit has a vacancy in leadership. I also have some who think my job should be to raise money in the community to give directly to units. Eh, maybe in a perfect world it would work like that, but this isn't a perfect world.

I've noticed a few posts on here from volunteers who seem to have no idea what their DE does or how she/he spends the day. I thought I'd share my work today and hopefully shed a little light on the job for those who know little about it. I am a field DE meaning my home serves as my office. I live an hour away from my Council. This will probably be lengthy, but hopefully informational. 6:30-7:30- Get up. Shower, Eat breakfast (Girl Scout Tag Alongs), Watch TV. 7:30-8:15. Check email. I send a couple of messages and reply to a few messages from volunteers. 8:15-8:45. Get dressed and swing by my mom's to catch up with her for just a few minutes before I start my day. 8:45-9:00. Drive to first meeting of the day. 9:00-9:30. My first meeting today is with an attorney who has agreed to serve as Committee Member at Large on my District Committee (I'm literally in the process of rebuilding my entire District Committee). My focus in this meeting is to secure his help in FOS. I ask him to come up with 15 prospects that he would feel comfortable calling and email me the names on Monday. He says it shouldn't be a problem and seems confident he can raise me some money. I then mention that the firm he works at typically gives $500 to my FOS campaign but, for whatever reason, didn't give last year. He says he'll "fix that" immediately. I leave the meeting feeling it was very productive. At the very least I feel like I'll get that $500 contribution back this year. 9:30-10:15. I drive to the next town over just 10 minutes to the south. My first stop is at the local high school where I meet with the principal. I ask if the students will once again participate in our career interest survey this year. The results from the survey are supposed to be used to identify potential Explorer Post opportunities. However, I've never started a Post and probably never will because it isn't traditional membership and I am judged on trad. membership. Still, my SE wants us to do this each year so I do it to pacify him. The principal agrees and I chat with him for a few minutes about his upcoming retirement. My next stop in this town is my uncle's office. I use his fax machine to send my NCAA Tournament picks to my Council because we have an office pool going ($5 per person). I then casually ask if he'd like to increase his usual FOS gift of $200. He says he'll go to $250. After leaving his office I immediately call my Council office to get the pledge in the computer ASAP. My SE, like all SE's, is constantly comparing where we are this year to where we were last year at the same time. I have a staff meeting next week and every kid, and every dollar counts. 10:15-11:00. I'm now heading to the biggest town in my district which is a 25 minute drive to the south. I'm going to the local high school there with the hope of killing two birds with one stone. I want to speak to the new principal about the career interest surveys and I have an 11 o'clock meeting with a former SM of mine who is now going to be a UC (I'm also totally rebuilding my Commissioner staff). He's a teacher but 11:00 is his planning period. The principal is in with a parent. I wait for a few minutes but then I'm told it may be awhile. I leave my card and head upstairs. 11:00-11:45. I meet with my volunteer and once again go over what I need from him in regards to being a UC. I give him an application to fill out right then to make it all official. During our conversation he mentions another teacher at the school who just started a rock climbing club for the students. He thinks she and her husband would be ideal candidates to start a venture crew. He then takes me to her classroom (it's also her planning period) where I have an impromptu meeting with her about the Venturing program. She seems genuinely interested and I give her my card and tell her I will call her and will be better prepared for our next meeting. I leave satisfied with my second productive meeting of the morning (that might be a new record for me!). 11:45-1:00. Lunch with a friend. Many DE's have "working lunches" where they meet w/ volunteers or prospective volunteers. There's nothing wrong with that but I prefer lunch to be a break from work. If I eat by myself I'll read the paper, a book, or go somewhere where I can watch TV while I eat. We eat at IHOP. I'm surprised that a place that specializes in pancakes can make such a good Philly Cheesesteak. 1:00-1:20. My last stop in this town is to swing by an elementary school to ask the principal if I can talk to her students in a couple of weeks about cub scouts. I'm trying to get a new pack started. I have a good relationship with her and she readily agrees. Another good meeting. 1:20-2:20. I make the 25 minute drive back and meet with one of the few "go to" volunteers I have in my district at her office. I pick up Family FOS cards from a presentation she did for me the night before. We got $100 from a 16 boy pack. Normally, this wouldn't be considered all that bad for my economically depressed district. However, the boys in this pack are from a private Christian school and we both thought we'd do better than that. I then broach a subject I've been avoiding, which is her becoming my Day Camp Director. I recruited a guy to be my director just last year and my Council sent him to camp school. He was gung-ho for awhile but now says his son has lost interest in scouts. Consequently, he has now lost interest in being my camp director. I hate asking this lady because I feel I pile enough on her already. She says she is very interested but doesn't know if she can make that kind of commitment with her busy work schedule and already fulfilling her role as a Unit Commissioner/FOS presenter/Trainer/Whatever else I ask her to do. She asks me to let her think about it. I should note that her only son is nearing his Eagle Scout and hasn't been a Cub Scout in quite awhile. I leave feeling guilty for even asking her, but I honestly don't have another good candidate. 2:20-2:45. I make the short 10 minute drive back to my "office," where I pick up the mail and pack a gym bag in hopes of sneaking in a workout sometime today. In the mail is a FOS check for a $100. I'm pleased. 2:45-3:30. I make the 45 minute drive to my next meeting in the northwest corner of my district. 3:30-4:15. This meeting quickly goes awry. I have already recruited kids and leaders for a pack I'm starting in this town. This meeting today was supposed to be for the Charter Rep. of the church to sign off on the other adult apps., fill out his app,. sign the charter agreement, and pickup money from the church. It doesn't go how I planned. I have yet to meet with this man but in my meetings with the pastor she assured me he was the man for the job and I thought this was just a formality. He assures me the church will let them use the building, but that is the extent of his, or the church's, involvement. He's a perfectly nice guy, but he's not budging on his stance. I leave thinking I'll have to charter another unit under "Parents for Scouting" and get a parent to be the Charter Rep. I'm now worried the paperwork for this unit won't be in by next week's staff meeting like I projected. Missing projections is bad news. 4:15-5:00. 45 minute drive back from where I came. 5:00-5:20. I know I won't have time to workout before my next meeting so I swing by my sister's to visit my little 4-year old nephew for a few minutes. I drink a glass of iced tea, eat a few of her Girl Scout cookies (Samoas this time), watch a few of minutes of "Peter Pan" with my nephew and I'm off again. 5:20-6:30. I make the hour or so drive to my next meeting on the eastern end of my district. 6:30-7:00. I'm meeting with the pastor's council about their church starting a cub pack and a troop. I don't have much time because their Wed. night service starts at 7:00, but I've already been in talks with one of the members of the council so they have a pretty good idea about what I want. This church (like most I deal with) says they are willing open the building for meetings, but can't provide leadership. They do agree to appoint a charter rep. to oversee both units and form a committee. I know as they are talking that the "committee" won't function in any real way and will simply be names on paper. Still, they're willing and I need the units ASAP. I ask them to have the paperwork completed by next week and then we'll set school night dates for the pack and troop. 7:00-8:00. Drive the hour back home. On the way I talk to my wife who says she is going to the gym. Despite the couch and TV calling my name I tell her I'll meet her there. 8:00-8:30. I spend 15 minutes on the stairmaster and 15 minutes on the treadmill. I don't go as hard as I usually do but I figure what I did was better than nothing. 8:30-8:45. Head home. 8:45-9:00. I thoroughly enjoy a chicken sandwich from McDonald's (not being sarcastic, it really was good) that my wife picked up for me on her way home. I then eat a few more Girl Scout cookies for dessert (Samoas again). Well, that's about it. I'd say the numerous meetings are fairly typical although the distance I covered today is atypical for me. I visited 3 of the 4 counties in my service area and put 282 miles on my car today. Although I travel a lot I don't usually have meetings that are so geographically spread out in one day. For me, like most DE's, 10, 11, and 12 hour days aren't uncommon but it's not like that everyday. Working from my home I take advantage of the freedom I enjoy that DE's that work from the Council office don't. Occassionally, I'll call it a day around 3 o'clock to mow my lawn, clean my garage, or even play golf. Today wasn't one of those days, though. Well, hope that was helpful to those of you who don't know a lot about our jobs. (This message has been edited by de4bsa)(This message has been edited by de4bsa)

Too much to really respond to since I last read this thread, but I'll address a couple of things. No, designating your UW gift to your favorite charity doesn't mean that charity gets "extra." Again, the only way a UW charity gets extra is if the donor designations exceed the original allocation. Yes, each local UW has a board that basically decides which NFP's will receive UW money and how much that money will be. This is why UW doesn't like donor designations. In essence, it can mess up their decisions on how money is allocated. nldscout, I don't dislike volunteers. Well, I take that back. I honestly do dislike a select few volunteers and I know I have volunteers who dislike me. Actually, the volunteers from this troop I like on a personal level, but their insistence on soliciting has caused me professional headaches on more than one occasion. I wish the structure of the program was setup differently so units could solicit more because I know that fundraising endeavors can be a hassle for the unit leaders. In the 6 years I've been a professional I've learned to put aside a lot of personal opinions and spout the "company line" on a variety of topics (For example, I hate Family FOS but that's for another time). That said, I couldn't let the UW situation go like nothing had happened. First and foremost, even if I had wanted to my SE wouldn't have let me. Secondly, I really do feel that could've opened up a can of worms for the UW and the Council that I rely on for a living.

Unit Fundraising Gifts and Tax Exempt Status There seems to be a lot of confusion over what kinds of activities are allowable for a Pack or Troop to use in raising money for unit treasuries, and whether a unit is in itself tax exempt. Quoted from the National office of the Boy Scouts of America: It has been the long-standing position of the IRS and the BSA that units such as packs, troops, teams, posts, and crews are NOT covered by the BSAs group exemption, and that the BSAs tax exempt status under IRC Sec. 501(3) does NOT extend to units. Units are not, in themselves, legal entities. They are chartered to partner organizations of the BSA such as churches, PTAs and civic groups. Since a unit is owned by its chartering organization, each unit takes its tax status from that organization. Units are NOT subordinate organizations of the Boy Scouts of America. Even if a unit is considered tax exempt, it is still prohibited from soliciting gifts or grants for unit support. As stated in the BSA Charter and Bylaws Article XI, Sec. 1, Clause 2: Contributions shall be solicited in the name of the Boy Scouts of America only through or by the authority of the Corporation, and shall be limited to the National Council or chartered local councils Youth members shall not be permitted to serve as solicitors of money for chartered organization units, for the local council, or in support of other organizations. Adult members and youth members shall not be permitted to serve as solicitors of money in support of personal or unit participation in local, national, or international events.. To summarize, this means that the only means of fundraising for a unit, or any member in a unit, is through approved fundraisers after submission of a Unit Fundraising Permit. The council Popcorn sale has been approved by the National BSA as a local council, and unit fundraiser. Other ideas are such things as car washes, other product sales, wreath sales after approval from the district and council. Paul, the above came directly from a article written by my SE for our Council's monthly newsletter. While people can in fact give their money away anyway they choose it is a direct violation of BSA policy for units to actively solicit that money. If you are currently doing that with your unit, you shouldn't be. If you can't see what that unit did through the UW was wrong I don't know how else to explain it to you. The UW had already allocated $3,000 to my Council. When the SM pulled his stunt the director of the UW thought she had to honor that b/c she thought the troop was a 501©3. So, she was going to take half the Council's allocation and give to the troop. Where is the outcry over that? Your response makes it sound like you think I robbed the troop out of $1,500. All I did was make sure that the troop didn't, in essence, "rob" the council out of money that was promised to them. Good luck getting any DE fired for saving their council $1,500. The UW director was thrilled she didn't have to honor that b/c she realized what a nightmare that could be. Industrious unit leaders everywhere could convince co-workers to allocate their UW pledges to their particular unit. Actually, UW directors all over the country hate donor designations and don't push it. If donor designations to a particular agency exceeds what the UW had already allocated to that agency then the UW has to cut funds from other agencies to honor those designations. That happened a couple of years ago in my area. If the SM wanted his co-workers to donate to his troop he should've just asked them. Of course, that is still a violation of BSA policy, but it's better than taking it out of your council's pocket or potentially hurting other non-profits.

Beavah, you make a lot of good points. It's just hard to see it that way when fundraising is such a time consuming struggle for me. Last year, I finished roughly $3,000 short of my FOS goal. When I hear that a SM convinced people to give $1,500 to his troop I can't help but get angry. My thought process is, "Do what you're supposed to do and teach the boys to earn the money. If you know of people willing to donate to scouting, send them my way." It's selfish and short-sighted. On some level I know that but on another level I can't help it. Honestly, part of my motivation was to stick it to the adults in that particular troop. Isn't that awful? It sure looks awful as I type it. I've had several discussions with them about their habit of soliciting. When the thing w/ the UW came up I got mad. I'd had it with them. The result is probably going to be everything you said it would be. Upset donors, upset kids, upset leaders. When my SE and I left the meeting we were patting ourselves on the back. Now, after reading some of the points you've made, I'm not so sure we handled it 100% correctly. It's just hard to make those points to an upset SE in a contentious staff meeting.

There are a number of reasons why the troop shouldn't have done that w/ the United Way. First and foremost, it's against BSA policy. Actually, I'll stick a pin in that and come back to it. The United Way has to dispense donor designations to the entities that are to receive it. It wouldn't take long for other units to find out that a local troop got a four figure check from the UW b/c a SM was slick enough to convince his co-workers to designate their UW gift that way. What that troop did could conceivably end up being a nightmare for the UW and, more importantly, the other agencies the UW funds. I've got 50 units in my district. If all of the units took that same approach then the UW basically would start raising money for scout units only. The Red Cross, Hospice, Homeless shelters, etc. would all have their allocations severely cut. The other problem is the message it's teaching the boys. I thought part of the purpose of the scouting program is to teach boys self-reliance, independence, hard work, the value of a dollar, etc. Which kid values camp more? The kid who participated in popcorn sales, car washes, and pancake breakfasts or the kid whose SM convinced the biggest car dealership in town to write a big check to his troop. Now, let's take the pin out and again be reminded it is against BSA policy. I have volunteers who constantly remind me what is and isn't BSA policy. I sometimes think they have every rule and statute memorized by heart. However, with many of my units the BSA policy of units only receiving funds through money earning ventures is ignored. So, if you're a volunteer and accepting donations for your unit then you are violating BSA policy. You can justify that anyway you want but it is what it is.

"My big dollars will go to the Troop. To the IRS, it's all the same." Myth. Most individual units are not 501©3 entities. Even the ones that are probably don't meet the standards to be one, but some poor schlub who reviews these things saw "Boy Scouts" somewhere on the form and granted it. Just last week in my Council we had this situation come up. A SM in my district convinced his co-workers to designate their United Way pledges to his troop. The allocations to his troop added up to half of what the United Way had designated to go to our Council. The UW director said they legally had to send half of our money to the troop b/c they are required to honor donor designations. My SE and I met with the UW director and asked if the UW bylaws said anything about being required to give to 501©3 organizations. When she replied "yes" then we assured her that the funds couldn't go to the troop. We then had the unpleasant task of informing the troop committee, (who insisted we meet in front of the boys) parents, and other leaders that they wouldn't be getting that money. They weren't happy but they also didn't have much to say when we informed them that they had broken two sets of bylaws (The BSA and United Way). Be careful of unit level giving.

"Hawk Mountain a not very large council, serving the area around Reading PA, has not had a dropped unit in a very long time. The Council is fortunate in having an outstanding Council Commissioner,Darnall Daley. They say the reason for their success is in part due to the fact that once a year a meeting like the one outlined as the 45 day meeting is held. All CO heads, the DE,UC and unit leaders are at the meeting. It works for them!! " That is a very impressive feat. Again, I say God bless 'em! That council is definitely the exception and not the rule. I'd wonder if being a small council helps in being able to have all those meetings. Not a lot of units, not a lot of ground to cover, couldn't hurt. If I would've had all those meetings when I first began I would've laid the groundwork for something that could've possibly been good for the program in my district. Unfortunately, the time I would've spent in those meetings and training C.O.'s and Executive Officers in what their role is would've taken me away from having an immediate impact on making my numbers. So, I probably would've laid the groundwork but wouldn't have been around to reap the rewards b/c I would've been fired for not making my numbers. See, in the scouting profession the less time you spend in any one place the better. My problem is I've now been the DE in the same district for 6 years. It's hard to be consistently successful in the same position serving the same territory that long. The shortcuts I took early in my tenure to make numbers are now coming back to haunt me. Now, again, I'm not saying there aren't exceptions to the rule. I'm sure someone will post back with something like, "We had the same DE for 15 years and made Quality District every year, etc." Hey, I've got no problem saying that DE is simply a better professional than I am. IMO, the premise for a professional scouter is "Make your numbers and move on." Go to a different district, or council, or get a promotion to a different job. The DE who got a promotion w/out having any Commissioners is a perfect example. He moved on before that could come back to haunt him. My SE got to his position doing largely the same thing. He had success in short stints at many different stops. The success was always impressive enough for him to keep getting promoted. Unfortunately, he's now been the SE in our council for 9 years. His career has stalled b/c our Council has fallen on hard times. Just like always, he was very successful the first 4 years at our Council. However, for different reasons he didn't move on after those 4 years. He had to stick around and the last 4 years have been terrible. Well, I kind of went on a rant and got off topic. Any DE making all those charter meetings has to be thinking long term. Long term in one position in scouting usually doesn't work out very well.

I tried the by the book way early in my tenure with a couple of Exec. Officers. They knew nothing about the units except that they used the building and everything was OK "as far as they knew." Both of the EO's seemed confused when I pulled out the recharter packets. After meeting with the first one I left the recharter packet and told him I'd get back with him. I then called the SM and told him of my meeting. He had no idea why I would give the packet to the EO b/c "he wouldn't know what to do with it." The second EO I met with was just as confused by what I was saying about unit health, unit inventory, etc. He suggested I "talk to the lady who is the leader." He then insinuated that if the church's involvement was to be much more than providing the building that maybe I should find a different church for them to meet at. I started catching on pretty quick after that. The last thing I needed was to spend my time finding new C.O.'s for 40 units. Have I deprived other Exec. Officers the opportunity to fulfill their jobs by not properly explaining it to them? I'd say there is no doubt that I have. It appeared it was going to cause me some headaches, so I didn't do and haven't really ever done it since. Again, it's a step that looks great on paper. There are also instructions included with every charter packet that instruct units that they should recharter with an equal or greater amount of youth. How often you think that happens? Sure does look good on paper, though. I'm sure there are some districts (though very few) that even complete that step. God bless 'em. Those districts and DE's are definitely fulfilling that duty much better than I. I appreciate the C.O's that take an active and interested part in the unit. Unfortunately, those C.O.'s are the exception and not the rule.

"I honestly don't know how that effects a unit's tenure, though." After re-reading anarchist's post about how lapsing cost his unit tenure, I guess I now know.

LOL. The directions for the proper steps to take on rechartering printed on the packet are priceless. Another example of the BSA printing something that looks great on paper but isn't really that practical. First, I'm down to 2 functioning UC's. If they were solely responsible for getting these packets out to the units they would have to quit their jobs. As a DE, I either personally deliver the recharter packets to someone from the unit (usually the unit leader) or mail it to them (Yeah, I know it's not SUPPOSED to be done this way, see my above comment about things that look great on paper). If I have a unit that has no experience with the process I sit down with them and explain it to them. I'd guess about 90% of the C.O's in my district view the scouts as just a group that uses their building once a week. If I took a recharter packet to an Executive Officer to discuss the unit's needs, etc. I'd get the biggest "deer in the headlights" look you would ever see. There isn't really all that much incentive or consequence for a unit to recharter on time. Some units really strive for the "Quality Unit" recognition, but most don't care. I had a CM tell me one time that if the kids have fun then that's all the validation she needed to be a Quality Unit. Rechartering on time is much more important to professionals. If enough units don't recharter on time, then there aren't enough Quality Units to make Quality District or Quality Council. If you're not making Quality Something as a professional in the BSA, then there is always a supervisor to answer to. I keep joking that one day I'm going to secretly record a staff meeting where my SE is ripping the DE's for late recharters. Then, I'm going to play it for all my late recharter units and beg them to recharter on time if, for no other reason, then to save me a butt chewing. If your unit is two months late, then they are officially "off the books" as a unit. So, if you're charter is due on Jan. 31, then you go off the books on April 1 if your charter still isn't in. Once a unit is off the books then the kids can't earn awards, attend summer camps, advance, etc. However, you can turn your charter in even after going off the books and you're good to go again. I honestly don't know how that effects a unit's tenure, though. This is timely for me because I've been calling my February units all day checking to see if their charters are complete and when I can get them. Some are ready, others have already informed me "we'll be late." Same old story.

A couple of years ago I asked someone from national if there was ever any thought given to bringing in people with corporate management experience and plugging them into SE positions. His response was that the BSA prefers that employees work their way up the ladder within the organization. However, I'm in agreement with you. I don't see how my current experiences as a DE are in any way paving the way to being a competent SE. I think part of the thinking is if you can successfully manage and encourage volunteers to do the work of scouting, then you can manage employees who have a paycheck on the line to do the work. That still doesn't address the fiscal responsibilities of being a SE. Your comment about businesses giving to local units is actually well thought out. The goal SHOULD be to grow the program and not the structure. That said, right now I'm part of the structure. When a unit "beats" me for money all I can think about are my FOS CA's and heat from my boss. I never consider that a kid is getting chance to go to camp when he otherwise wouldn't. It's a shame really. Early in my tenure I came to the conclusion that the BSA has some structual problems. The structure is set up so that Councils and units are really in competition for the same dollar. So, entities that should be allies often find themselves as enemies (so to speak). I wish I were smart enough to present a solution but I'm not. Well, I better get off of here. I'm wasting time. I have FOS calls to make. LOL.