ahofer

Ok, I thought we had worked out differences of opinion in this thread about what constitutes reverence or belief in "God" but now I'm not so sure again. I still think there's plenty of room for individual interpretation in the scout principles, if you can somehow avoid actually declaring yourself an atheist. And I think that believing in the possibility of God (in some form, including belief in and reverence for the mystery of nature and evolution) allows agnostics to include themselves in the scouts without any ethical lapse. To think otherwise is, to me, clearly religious bigotry, demanding that others worship as you do, and is contrary to the religious principles as well. The 1992 edition of BSA's Advancement Guidelines: Council and District Functions, states: "The Boy Scouts of America has a definite position on religious principles. The following interpretative statement may help clarify this position. The Boy Scouts of America: Does not define what constitutes belief in God or the practice of religion." End of story. If I believe that nature is God, and I have great reverence for it, you have no right to question my religious principles, and no right to question my membership in scouting.

Crew21_Adv: I understand the problem of posers creating controversy on web forumns; with Edge, I'm quite sure this is NOT the case, as I received a thoughtful, personal message from him this morning thanking me for my support, and I think there haven't been any posts on this thread by him since the first two. Thanks again for your thoughts.

scoutldr: GREAT reply. It's so encouraging to see a forum exchange that, for a change, brings people closer to an understanding instead of escalating out of control. When we remove the heat of emotion from the discussion, we ARE far closer than it first appeared. Thanks very much for listening with an open mind and striving for better communication. I see your points and agree with them. My own concern was also to get this scout (and other agnostic scouts) to think before they blurt out "I'm an atheist" before an Eagle board of review. I believe many who think of themselves as atheists may really be agnostic, and as I said in prior posts, all an agnostic has to do is really THINK about the creation around them to find a spiritual core. And that can be called God by anyone. As to who "owns" the BSA, you're right again, and I'm wrong -- at least by the legal definition. But, while the BSA may be a corporation, I believe that SCOUTING is the scouts, the leaders and the families involved. The BSA provides a service, but the Scouts themselves make scouting what it is, and what it can be again, if we can get it to spread further and attract more people who've been turned off in the past. No other youth activity comes close to providing what scouting does, in such a wide spectrum of valuable, honorable experiences, and like you, I do wish it was explictly open to everyone. In the meantime, I just wanted to encourage as many as possible to realize that they CAN be included without compromising their beliefs or the rules of the organization, if they just think about it clearly. Thanks again for your thoughtful reply.

scoutldr: I don't mean to ridicule anyone, and you're entitled to whatever beliefs and opinions you have, and I do respect that. If however, you think a scout is a troll because he doesn't believe what you believe, then I do think it's sad, especially if you're a scout leader. It doesn't matter whether he used the word first or not. As to whether he's an atheist or not, as I said in a previous post, at 17, and without a formal religious background, he may be confused as to the distinction between an agnostic and an atheist, and there's a big one. I meant only to provide him with support for the idea that if he merely questions what God might really be, perhaps believing that NO human can really know, then he's not an atheist, and it doesn't mean he's nonspiritual, immoral or irreverent. Thus, I think it's entirely consistent for an agnostic to profess belief that there is SOME kind of higher power or structure to the universe, beyond random chance, that caused the creation we see around us, in all it's complexity and beauty. If a scout can believe in this mystery, without believing that humans can ever understand and explain it, then that should be enough to qualify a scout as reverent. And I think there's no question that such a scout should be welcomed openly and encouraged to follow the path to Eagle. Agnostics don't need to create their own youth organization, there's nothing remotely like the BSA in existence, and thousands of us have been proud and loyal members for many decades. Those with narrow, rigid beliefs don't own the organization, we all do. If agnostics have to declare that they believe in a mysterious pattern behind the universe and choose to call it "God" in order to satisfy those who sit in judgement of them, I see no moral conflict there.

John-in-KC: Thanks for your post about Scouting's support for those of Buddhist and Hindu faiths. It's nice to see strong evidence of support for those who don't follow a monotheistic path.

Crew21_Adv (and others): Thanks for YOUR last post, I believe we've found common ground. As you pointed out, it's easy to become emotional about these issues, and I did so in my first post. My writings were never aimed at those of faith who respect those of other beliefs -- or those who question their beliefs. My frustration was only with those who told EdgeofThorns that he didn't belong in the scouts. In his first post, he first described himself as agnostic (questioning), and only later described himself as "atheist" (with quotations). Perhaps he's confused as to the distinction. Either way, though I feel he's undoubtedly a good, moral, respectful person, with every right to pursue the path to Eagle, and that it's a sad thing for others to tell him he doesn't belong in the Scouts.

Crew21_Adv: I apologize if you were offended by anything in my previous post; I intended no disrespect to any person, and if that's the way it came across, then I'm guilty as charged, and will try to avoid it in the future. My frustration is not aimed at any person who declares their religious faith; rather it is with those who would judge others and impose their standards on them. I've never criticize anyone for their beliefs, and I do respect them; for all I know they're right and I'm wrong -- I only believe that no human knows for sure. I do NOT feel that others should believe what I believe. But if a person feels that all others must believe as they do in order to be a moral person, then I say that person is intolerant, disrespectful, and when taken to extremes, it does make them a fanatic. And there's plenty of religious exrremism, both in this country and around the world. Edge didn't start any name calling -- he just detected the scorn and disrespect implied by the first response to his post. He certainly didn't call anyone else names. The only name calling I saw was by Scoutldr. And shame on him for it. I don't mean to be a spokesperson for anyone, but I do know that there are MANY people that share my line of thought. And many of them wish that such a valuable organization as the BSA could have a slightly lighter touch on the religious issue. Although many posts and other sources point out that the religious requirement is tolerant of all faiths, it is still very much Christian-oriented, with many scout sites explaining that to be reverent you must believe in a single supreme being (God). But where does that leave Buddhists, Hindus and others who DON'T believe in a single supreme being? Where would it leave a Native American who believes in the spirits in all things, and no supreme God? And where does it leave a perfectly moral individual who simply questions whether ANYONE knows the truth about God and creation? I can't believe that these scouts should be excluded from all that is good about this organization. And questioning religious beliefs does not make one irreverent or disrespectful.

EdgeOfThorns: don't listen to those who call you a "Troll" or belittle you because of your lack of explicit religious beliefs. Those who hold others to their strict interpretation of "God" represent all that's WRONG with the BSA. It's unfortunate that the national organization is held captive by the bible belt, but know that there are many thousands of scouts, leaders and parents who share your dilemma. Those who believe that a strictly defined religious belief is a requirement to leading a "moral" life and to membership in this organization are themselves acting immorally, and intolerantly. Many of us believe that any intelligent being would have questions about the world and the universe, it's origins and their place in it. Whether your concept of God is an actual separate supreme being, a higher power, or a spirit that binds us all together with the universe and it's evolution, you can be said to be a spiritual person. If you believe that people and other creatures are more than physical beings, then you can see yourself as a spiritual person. If that sense of yourself leads you to follow the moral guidelines -- the best part -- of the world's religions, then that should be enough. No physicist truly knows the origin of the universe, and if you need to use the word "God" to describe the mystery of creation, then you don't need the trappings of organized religion. In fact, if you believe there's spirit in all things, but not a single specific God in control of everything, why then, you're much closer to the beliefs of Native Americans that the BSA likes to celebrate so much! If that spirit leads you to have reverence for life, and for our world, then you're reverent, and no follower of any specific religion can tell you otherwise. The BSA as a whole is made up of MANY different kinds of people, good people who want to do what's right and what benefits others and our planet. Remember that only a small percentage of BSA members are religious fanatics -- the rest of us are with you. Go ahead and think about whether you question how the universe, life and conciousness came to be, whether you feel there's a mystery in it that science is unlikely to every fully explain, and whether the spirit of humanity leads you to act in a moral fashion. If so, then you can describe yourself as a spiritual, moral person, and that should be more than enough for this requirement. The main dictionary definition of reverent is: adjective feeling, exhibiting, or characterized by reverence; deeply respectful: a reverent greeting. If you're deeply respectful, then you're reverent. End of story. PS: to the poster who said that EdgeOfThorns IS a troll: shame on you! You don't define what reverence is for every person, and a "godly" person would never say anything like that. With those words you proved YOURSELF unreverent! (Disrespectful of others). PPS: My son is also 17, also working on his Eagle project, and facing the same dilemma as EdgeOfThorns. Thanks to this forum for letting me vent a bit at the national organization and religious extremists who believe they own the organization, and use their intolerance to keep those with different beliefs out.