David CO

This is the same argument that James West and William Boyce had 100 years ago. Boyce wanted to expand scouting to include working class boys. West wanted to build a program that would appeal more to middle-class and white-collar households. The executives have always wanted an elitist scouting program. That's where the $$$ is.

Of course it will be good for councils. It will be great for the executives. It's not good for the scouts.

No, I think it really is the expense. 1 out of 7 kids are raised in low income families on food stamps. Poverty is a real thing.

The higher the price of admission becomes, the less likely it is that boys will learn personal responsibility and self-reliance by paying their own way. I would be astonished if any of the boys in my unit would think it's worth it. Not if they're paying for it.

Though calling it a BS shirt would more accurately convey my feelings about the scout uniform, I think I'll stick to calling it either a scout uniform or a BSA uniform. I never know when the nuns might be standing behind me with a ruler in their hands.

I totally agree with your daughter. I too am fabric sensitive. All of the scout shirts feel horrible to me. I won't wear one. So I don't wear the uniform. Uniforms aren't required to participate in scouting. I am hesitant to recommend that anyone alter a uniform shirt, or customize a different shirt to resemble a uniform shirt. I also don't go along with wearing parts of the uniform with non-uniform wear. In my mind, it is all-or-nothing. Wear the uniform or don't wear it. Your choice. All of my shirts are made of French terry knit cotton. Incredibly comfortable. Very practical outdoors. Looks a little casual for dress wear, but it doesn't show much if you wear it with a nice sweater or sports jacket. A teacher can get away with it. I think it would be a great material for scout uniform shirts.

Hi Nathan. I'm a teacher. Sure, I know of many ways, other than merit badge work, to teach a topic. One could argue that school provides a better learning experience than a merit badge. But that's school work, not scouting. A merit badge pamphlet is deliberately brief. It's not a textbook. Yes, we could design an online textbook to teach merit badge topics. We could even have on-line classes with pre-recorded lectures and labs. I'm sure there would be some learning value in having a distance education class, but it wouldn't be scouting. I have seen merit badge mills that "teach" merit badges in a school-like setting. We should avoid that. We should also avoid turning merit badge counseling into an on-line distance education program. Scouting shouldn't be like school.

BBLM. Black Bear Lives Matter.

We have an entire forum devoted to the patrol method. Is there a polite way for me to suggest that this conversation be moved over to that forum?

No. We have never used the high adventure camps. Too expensive.

Well I'll be. There really is such a place as Transylvania University. I thought you were joking at first. I'll bet they have a lot of night classes.

Moderators have been letting this off-topic topic go on for some time now. Have they not noticed, or are they greatly relieved that we are no longer talking about the riots and they don't want to spoil a good thing?

That's a very interesting observation. I have to agree. School administrators have become increasingly cautious about group projects. About 40% of my class time was spent on group projects, usually in small groups of 4 or 5. My last principal didn't like it very much. I don't know if it had anything to do with students being unable to handle conflict resolution or consensus building. I know the modern trend in education is leaning towards individualized instruction. Teaching to the test. Personal interaction and coping skills can't be measured on a standardized test. Therefore, they are unimportant. At least in the eyes of a school administrator. Does this effect scouting? I don't know. Maybe parents and scouts want to copy the learning techniques they learn at school and use them in scouting. I did the opposite. I took some of my scouting skills and used them in the classroom.

Which is pretty much the same reaction most of the country had when the BSA bankruptcy was announced. Scouting isn't as important to people as it used to be.

I think some people forget that Chartered Organizations (and their representatives) are often made up of people who don't drink the scouting Kool-Aid. They don't wear the uniforms. They don't speak the lingo. They don't revere BSA. Scouting is just one small part of what they do. A very small part. They don't eat, drink, and breathe scouting. Sometimes, they are not even all that keen on having a scout program. It's not a very good idea to quote the scout oath/law to them as if they are the Magna Carta, Declaration of Independence, and Ten Commandments all rolled up into one. The CO's are probably not interested. If there is a problem, meet with the CO and explain your concerns. Treat them like adults. Treat them with respect. Don't make demands and threats. Don't quote BSA rules. Just lay out your concerns and trust that the CO will try to accommodate you (if it can).

My CO doesn't like to be talked to like a child. A scout is obedient. What kind of way is this to talk to grown men.

My impression is that most Chartered Organizations don't take the chartering agreement very seriously. I think my CO has actually been better than most. But even my CO doesn't feel that BSA can dictate to them.

I haven't heard that one in quite a while. We used to have a member on this forum who was constantly telling the people he disagreed with to get out of scouting. Usually in bold type. I don't know if he actually thought anyone would obey him (and get out of scouting). I certainly didn't.

Obedient to a business? No way. BSA can say anything it wants, but in the end, we only have to do what the law requires. Nothing more.

We had this discussion many years ago when I first joined the forum. I think of BSA as a business, just like any of the other businesses I have had dealings with over the years. I usually compare BSA to a textbook publisher. As a teacher, I deal with textbook publishers all the time. I do have an ethical and legal obligation to honor their copyrights. I don't take their materials and make illegal copies. That's stealing. I do not let a textbook publisher come into my classroom and tell me how to teach. They often have definite ideas about how the course should be taught, and they do often include these gems of advice in the teacher's editions, but it is my choice to accept or reject their advice. All businesses try to develop customer loyalty. It's good business. A business might advertise a statement that their customers are like family. But they're not family. They're just customers. A good consumer can read through all the hype. BSA tries to develop a steady customer base by giving people the impression that BSA is a club, and we are all members. We're not. We are just customers. BSA gives us a lot of phony-baloney talk. Sometimes we need to give it right back to them. So what is it I need to follow? I need to follow the law. That's it. I owe BSA nothing more. Neither do you.

I don't think you're missing anything. I just disagree with you.

So do I. I didn't use the popcorn sales as an example because the OP is specifically asking about non-council fundraising. If his unit is going to do its own soliciting for funds, he will need to come up with some sort of phony-baloney explanation to give to council.

Even if the original town of Burnside, KY was the birthplace of scouting, it is now somewhere beneath Lake Cumberland. The town was relocated when a dam was built in the 1950's to create the reservoir.

The fact is we do. Try not to do it so blatantly that you can't come up with a plausible explanation if council calls you on it.

Exactly my point. The car wash is used as a fig leaf to cover up the fact that the unit is soliciting for donations. They are not selling a product or service for fair market value. They are not earning their own way.