David CO

I'm sure he didn't. I never gave the boys any options. Showering was not optional. Just do it.

This was the problem. It is totally unacceptable and un-scout-like. If I was their teacher/coach/scoutmaster, I would have come down on them like a ton of bricks.

I don't recall him saying he was coerced or shamed into taking showers. He said it was required.

Swimmers were required to shower as a condition to using the YMCA pool. Students showered as a requirement of the physical education class. Setting conditions and requirements is not the same as coercing and shaming.

I would be cautious in using that argument. Some would say exactly the same thing about Boy Scout camping. Though it is common and seemingly benign, rampant abuse has occurred on scout camping trips. It is inherently dangerous to allow boys to go camping.

This is yet another example of cancel culture.

I would have put this into the context of secret societies, weird rituals, and totally inadequate supervision. This is not an account of legal vultures or foolish over-reach.

I wouldn't expect there to be many abuse claims based entirely on group showers or nude swimming. But the more I think about it, I suppose it could be suggested that such casual nudity in scouting made some scouts more susceptible to abuse by reducing their inhibitions. I doubt it is true. But the claim might be made. My oldest brother was 16 when I was born. As far back as I can remember, I always knew what adult male bodies looked like. I wasn't traumatized by it. It was just the way things were. Boys grow up into men. No big deal. I think being exposed to such facts at an early age makes a boy's own physical development much easier to accept. I saw three of my brothers go through puberty. It was no shock when it later happened to me. No trauma. No embarrassment about group showers or nude swimming. I just accepted it as normal.

I still agree with that viewpoint. I also agree with you, though. The world has moved on, and there is little point in debating it.

Yes you are. I think it is a valid topic of conversation. I just don't see any tie-in with the lawsuits or the bankruptcy. In the one case, boys were doing what they were told to do. Group showers and nude swimming were commonplace at that time. Schools and YMCA's often required it. It wasn't a secret. Parents knew their boys were showering and swimming nude. And, as you said, a father might shower at the YMCA with his boys. It was accepted practice at the time. In the other case, nobody at BSA, schools, YMCA, or anyplace I know of, told boys to have sex with adults. That was not an accepted practice. It was not done openly. It was not done with the approval of the parents. It was not legal. I don't think there is any comparison.

Funny how they didn't see a "moral obligation" before now.

Naw. The producers of these shows want the audience to be rooting for at least one of the contestants to survive.

Even I have to admit that practicing their marksmanship skills with live torpedoes might have been slightly over-the-top.

At one time, scouting was so popular they had to beat boys away with a stick. Obviously, that badge is no longer needed.

Sorry, but I think that is a terrible answer. It should be about right and wrong, not about who is most valuable to the unit or council. In many cases, this is how BSA got in so much trouble, siding with the people who contribute the most.

That's not my sword.

I agree. But school budgets are limited and not all sports are offered. I very much doubt that we will ever offer hockey or figure skating. Ice time is prohibitively expensive. So kids need to go to club sports if that is their area of interest. I have always felt that there is little point in putting down other programs. Sports and scouting are like apples and oranges. You can like one. You can like both. You can like neither. Your choice.

You might be a little biased against sports. Many people, including kids, would disagree that middle school sports are overly competitive. Boys often thrive on competition. Not all boys. Just like with scouting, competitive sports don't appeal to everyone.

Except for kilts. Uniform kilts would be an even worst idea.

Is that the standard now? The least bit uncomfortable. The women in the teacher's lounge make me cringe sometimes. Their conversations can get down-right raunchy. I just quietly get up and leave. Consequently, I spend very little time in the teacher's lounge. They sometimes comment about how I avoid the teacher's lounge because of their conversations. They think it's hilarious, and make a big joke of it. Nobody has suggested that they should clean up their conversations so I don't feel the least bit uncomfortable at work.

First, it needs to be established that it was actually sexual harassment. I had a baseball mother lodge a complaint of sexual harassment because someone asked her out on a date. She didn't want to be asked out on a date at baseball game. She thought it was inappropriate. Guys and gals have to be able to approach each other socially. Not a good idea to do it at work. People at work are there to work. Best to leave the socializing for social occasions. Is scouting a social occasion? I would say yes. As long as the approach is appropriate and decent, I have no problem with it. If someone won't take no for an answer, we have a problem.

OK. My concern has always been that councils do not have enough independence from national. Councils are supposed to be separate entities. But they're not. They are totally controlled by national. The new territory plan is just more of the same. Read the target goals. Why is the territory setting council targets? If councils are independent entities, shouldn't they be setting their own targets based on local needs? If the bankruptcy court needs proof that BSA actually runs the councils, it has to go no further than the new territories plan.

Yes. Look at the responses that followed. Look at them very closely. The problem is that BSA ignores customer response. It is a foolish way of doing business, and BSA is now paying the price for its arrogance.

BSA enrollment is dropping like a rock. I guess BSA has gotten an answer. Not the one it wanted, but an answer all the same.

I agree. Post them here.