David CO

It is not polite to stand up and walk out during a live performance until there is a break. It disrupts the performance for both the performers and those guests who are enjoying the event. It's fine to leave between acts in a play, sets in a concert, or any other sort of pause or intermission intended for that purpose. Anytime we make plans to entertain teenagers, the need for pauses and intermissions should be anticipated.

Poor examples. Every time scout exec salaries are discussed, somebody starts making comparisons with compensation packages offered in other private sector businesses and argues that BSA needs to be financially competitive in order to recruit and retain good people. But why only compare BSA salaries with other business models? Why not also compare them with our military and clergy? High ranking military officers and religious leaders are often highly educated, skilled, and experienced people who work for far less than our top scout execs. Yet these dedicated people don't seem to be leaving in droves for better paying jobs. It is clear that most of our military and clergy are motivated by higher ideals than personal gain and self-promotion. Why can't BSA be expected to do the same? .

Service clubs are experiencing a startling decline in membership. Todays young parents aren't joining, and their children aren't witnessing the example of selfless acts of community service that SSScout recounts.

Children learn what we teach. Most "charitable" fundraisers nowadays, at church, school, sports, and scouts, have some sort of personal payoff for the kids. Service hours are not just for advancement, anymore. We also have them for Confirmation and graduation requirements. Everybody is getting in on the act. What used to be cheerfully and anonymously dropped into a collection basket is now in a computer coded envelope, recorded and reviewed annually. Quid pro quo religion. This is the world we have created and live in. I can't blame the kids one bit for learning what we have taught them.

On whether or not OA would treat tobacco use differently from recreational drug use, I don't know. I suppose some aspects of the infractions are the same, but others are not. Both should be reported and dealt with, but not necessarily at the same level, and not with the same severity. I do know that a school would treat it differently. Tobacco use would be dealt with by the principal or dean of students. Recreational drug use is an expulsion level offense requiring school board notification and action.

While the conduct of the SM and CC certainly do reflect on the Chartered Organization, it is the IH and COR who actually represent the CO. I would not feel that the CO was correctly notified unless the IH and COR were fully informed of the situation.

I wonder, why isn't this in the SM handbook? Could it possibly be that the roles of drug counselor, social worker, and probation officer were never intended to be part of a SM's job description? Even if the SM does a great job and everything turns out well, I still think the SE and CO should have stepped in on this one.

The women's one piece "scuba style" swimsuits are very much in style. They have a very "athletic" look and are relatively modest. I have also seen boys wearing surfer styled body suits, which are also very athletic looking, rather than just swim trunks. I don't know if it is for modesty or UV protection. Works either way for me.

Swimsuits communicate the message, "I'm here for swimming." Nothing more.

No problem with parents talking to their kids. Schools, churches and BSA have rules.

When Lenae says, "We should be teaching our boys..., " I wonder who she means by "we." Does she mean Scout Leaders? Male Scout Leaders? Before Youth Protection, it was not uncommon for respected male leaders to have a man-to-man chat with boys about respecting women. I don't do that anymore. I don't want to go there. Maybe Lenae and the other moms could talk to the boys, but I don't know that it would have the same effect.

I've lived much of my life in a beach resort town. The boys in my unit have all seen girls in swimsuits before.

I will agree that encouraging boys to leave their units in pursuit of the sash is not part of OA's original purpose and will probably not be found in any OA literature. In practice, however, this is what is being done. Anyone who reads the posts on this thread can clearly see it.

I still doesn't make any sense to me. If the purpose of OA is for members to return to serve their troop, why would OA encourage a boy to leave his troop in order to join OA?

Would it make a difference if the Scout were at camp to act as a representative of OA in an OA election, tapping out, or ordeal?

There is an interesting discussion taking place on another forum about the advancement consequences of a Scout's recreational drug use at camp. I'm curious. If the Scout were a member of OA, would OA impose any consequences, or would it be left to the unit leadership?

Oh, I forgot, In my state he could also lose his driver license.

I am more than a little concerned when I consider the possibility that youth members may read posts on this site and believe some of the half-truths and misinformation about the illegality and potential consequences of recreational drug use by minors. Recreational drug use by MINORS is not legal in any state in the USA. It is not legal in any grade school or high school in the USA. In fact, most states have enhanced penalties for bringing recreational drugs to school or to school sponsored activities. Many Scout units have schools as their CO. Many others have PTA/PTO. In both cases, they are considered school sponsored activities as far as the disciplinary rules go.

King Ding Dong, I got the joke. My school allows for the responsible use of knives in Science, Art, and Shop classes, the cafeteria, and Scout activities. Not so cranky, IMHO, certainly not more so than with drugs. We have zero tolerance for recreation drug use in any of our school sponsored activities, on or off campus. I must agree with Eagle 83 on this one. In addition to the other consequences mentioned, legal and advancement, expulsion from school would be a very real possibility if the CO were a school.

If the CO were a school, this would be very serious. 0 tolerance.

Stosh, do you think this issue needs to take on an all or nothing approach, or do you see a middle ground here? You mentioned two areas that might be improved, "less than authentic dress" and "rituals reflected of their religion." If OA insisted on authenticity and shied away from religious rituals, do you think that would do it? By the way, cultural appropriation issues go beyond OA. Take Chief Owasippe of Chicago Council's Owasippe Scout Reservation. Do I see a Western styled headdress on a Great Lakes tribal character?

So, when will we see a Ken Burns documentary on Scouting?

In the late 1980's and early 1990's, when the policy was decided, a unit Committee Member owned an island campground and made it available to the unit. On a remote corner of the island, there was a nest of bald eagles. It was illegal for us to touch the eagle feathers, but Native Americans from the reservation across the lake were allowed to collect them for NA ceremonies. In gratitude for allowing them access to the island property, the tribe would occasionally invite our unit to authentic NA ceremonies. Yes, there was some NA involvement in the decision. I think, as a political issue, cultural appropriation should be discussed under politics, not OA. The question on this thread is whether or not OA elections can be banned from a unit.

Stosh is not the first person from OA to suggest that our charter be pulled. I would have no objection if OA conducted elections without involvement from the unit, but I wouldn't consider it my place to suggest OA rule changes. I really don't feel that I have gone too far afield with this topic.

I have posted on this topic several times. The Chartered Organization owns the unit, lock, stock, and barrel. The issue our Chartered Organization was most concerned about, when deciding whether or not to participate in OA, was cultural appropriation. A decision was made to not participate in OA, and that decision is final. In fairness to our prospective Scouts, parents, and leaders, this policy is clearly stated. To answer the question, yes, the Scoutmaster can ban OA elections if that is the policy of the Chartered Organization.