David CO

I'm guessing that he had already read and understood the new BSA policy, including local option, before he applied to be a Scout leader for a Catholic church-owned unit. He also knew, since he had previously experienced it first-hand, the policy of this Catholic diocese. He knew he was going to be rejected. He is just trying to cause trouble.

Yes, this new policy is certainly going to be disruptive and unfair. In order to protect itself from lawsuits, a church-owned unit will probably need to establish and document new policies and practices to show that the unit is part of the church's ministry, and not just a generically "sponsored" unit. Many units operate on a "school year" schedule, which for many, starts in just a couple of weeks. Not much notice, is it?

The Knights of Columbus have some degree of independence from the parish and diocese, so their units may or may not have been counted in the tally of units chartered by the Catholic Diocese of Bismarck. In practice, the KC's usually follow the lead of their bishops.

We have over 1000 kids in our parish, and about 40 Scouts. Most of those are Cub Scouts. Boy Scouting has been the least popular of all our youth programs. Scouting has survived in my parish because of a small, but highly motivated, group of dedicated Scouters. I have been one of them. The vast majority of my parish could not care less about Scouting. Scouting exists, not because it is popular, but because it has raised few objections. We are now faced with a very serious objection. A valid objection. Participation in BSA will not be decided by the 4% who register with the unit. It will be decided by the other 96%. Some have objected to the fact that decisions about participation in BSA will likely be made by non-Scouters. This is true. It has always been true. It should be true. A decision to sever ties with BSA will certainly effect our Boy Scouts. Some suggest that it will hurt them. I don't know. I suspect that some boys would be upset, while others shrug it off and move on to other activities. A decision to keep the units would also effect the 96% who are not Boy Scouts. These boys can be hurt, too. A Scout program can act as a magnet for all sorts of hurtful language directed at devoutly Catholic youths. Some diocese and parishes will immediately drop their units with great fanfare. Some will quietly drop BSA when their charters expire. I think we need to begin looking at an exit strategy that will protect the 96% while allowing the 4% to enjoy an authentically Catholic Scouting experience. I don't think this can happen in BSA.

The Bishop of the Catholic Diocese of Bismarck is exactly right.

I wouldn't surprise me if BSA hadn't spelled out exactly which behaviors were not considered morally straight. In my catechist training, I was specifically told to not explain to second grade first communion students, even if asked, what the word "virgin" meant. I was also told to not explain to middle school bible study students exactly what sins caused God to destroy Sodom. I am often impressed by how cleverly priests can word their sermons in such a way that they can get their message across while letting some content go over the heads of younger parishioners. I believe the same thing was probably true in Scouting. Some things were written vaguely to go over the heads of younger and more sensitive Scouts. The adults understood what was meant by morally straight.

In the movie, The Sixth Sense, Haley Joel's character observed, "They don't have meetings about rainbows." Apparently he was wrong.

I've heard the same thing. A meeting is being held in August. I don't know anything more.

I don't mind when liberals and atheists call me narrow-minded. They're half right. I am straight-and-narrow minded.

BSA was not without competition in its early days. If BSA began today, it would be up against some other group with a couple million members and a century of rich history and tradition. I vote for Lone Scouts of America.

If words are to have no common meaning, then what is the purpose of having a Scout Promise?

I believe everyone's curiosity will be satisfied after the church leaders meet this month and issue public statements. We've only seen the sneak previews. More detailed statements are sure to follow.

Do I value Scouting over my religion? No. Do I think the boys in my Church should value Scouting over their religion? No.

If the Scout Law is to be reinterpreted in such a drastic way as to make it impossible for Catholics to accept and obey, than no, there is no Catholic future in Scouting.

As a matter of fact, I was an KC advisor for the Squires. It is a great group, but very different from Scouting. Very little emphasis on outdoors.

Things are changing surprisingly quickly. It wasn't long ago that most people thought that BSA would not accept a change of policy. I don't know how WOSM will react. I may be surprised. Perhaps the Sovereign Military Order of Malta would be a better choice. It has its own diplomatic status, currency, and postage stamps. The Maltese cross would look great on a Scout uniform. I could have great fun leading "crusader Scouts."

I wasn't thinking of an "alternative program." I was thinking of a Boy Scout organization sanctioned by WOSM. The Catholic Church already owns campgrounds. We have one about 15 miles from my house.

Should Catholics form their own Scout organization?

My guess is that LDS is no longer thinking "national." They're thinking "international." The USA isn't the only country to change traditional Scouting principles. I think LDS may be thinking of petitioning for its own Boy Scout organization within the Scouting Movement. The Catholic Church would actually be in a better position to do this than LDS. The Vatican City is already recognized as a state.

The article didn't discuss "in-name-only" church-owned units. My gut feeling is that they're vulnerable.

Packsaddle, If the Scout leaders and Scouts you mentioned were in units owned by non religious CO's, than I would be equally appalled, whether they were liberal or conservative, by a Scout leader encouraging boys to change their religion. If, however, a boy joins a church-owned unit, I think he and his parents might reasonably expect to receive a polite invitation to join the religion. The unit is a part of the church ministry. IMO, it is the same as if they sign up for a church-owned school or Sunday school class. Simply put, if they walk into my church, they're fair game. As far as hell is concerned, I do believe in the existence in hell. I do believe that the act of committing a mortal sin can lead to eternal damnation. But that is as far as I go. I never predict the outcome of God's Final Judgment. That is for God to decide.

Terry, What is the worst case scenario that conservative churches have to fear? I'll tell you. It is that Scout leaders will advise boys to not follow the teachings of their church. It is that Scout leaders will suggest that boys change religions. A church-owned unit is part of the ministry of the church. To suggest that boys switch from their church-owned units is dangerously close to advising that they choose a different religion.

Sorry, I double clicked on the post button. But since I already created this post, I will expand on my previous answer to DigitalScout. DigitalScout, You ask me if I have friends and associates who are sinners. Yes. In fact, all of my friends, family, and associates are sinners. So am I. We are repentant sinners. We are genuinely sorry for our sins. We confess our sins, pray for forgiveness, and strive to sin no more. My problem isn't with sinners, it is with unrepentant sinners. It is with people who claim that sinful behavior isn't sin. It is with people who actively promote sin. I try to avoid those people.

DigitalScout, Great post! I agree with almost everything you said. "Cherry picking" or "cafeteria style" observance of religion is a problem. There are many, many different kinds of sins. I agree with you that everything on your list are sins. My religion teaches that some sins are more serious than others. The term "gravely sinful" would not apply to every sin on your list. My religion also recognizes a difference between repentant sinners and unrepentant sinners. I don't believe it is at all hypocritical or "cherry picking" to draw these distinctions. My last point is that not every sin is relevant to the topic of this thread.

He is faithful of his religious duties. He respects the beliefs of others. The recent policy change seems to make these two statements contradictory. To be faithful in my religious duties, I must accept my religions teachings that homosexuality is intrinsically disordered and homosexual acts are gravely sinful. I accept it, and I believe it. Any fair minded person would concede this point. I didn't just make this up. On the second part, I can't see how I can say to another Scouter that his beliefs are intrinsically disordered and gravely sinful, but I respect them. What rank hypocrisy! If you feel that the phrases "intrinsically disordered" and "gravely sinful" are harsh, I agree. If you feel that they are also disrespectful, I also agree. If you feel that my religion disrespects the beliefs of others, I whole heartedly agree. It is my religion, and I believe it. So, why am I still in BSA? That's a fair question. I belong to a religion that believes that some decisions are best made as individual members, while other decisions are best made collectively, as a church. Since this matter involves the teachings of my church, and not merely my own personal opinions, and equally applies to all members of my religion, and not just me, I'm waiting to see what my church decides. I'm sure that won't happen until after the policy decision is finalized.