David CO

We don't allow it.

Yes, I have dealt with this sort of thing before. First of all, you need to know that my Chartered Organization is a school. We would treat this behavior exactly the same as we would if it had occurred in the school cafeteria. Can you imagine how your kids' school would react? I have said this before, so I'll try not to belabor the point. I don't see why boys in a scout activity should be held to a lesser standard.

This is where I think Sentinel947 's analogy goes wrong. Beavah has a son on a soccer team in the League of Youth Soccer. Beavah doesn't own the league. Beavah isn't an officer of the league. So, Beavah has no authority to change the rules. Beavah has a son on a soccer team in the League of Youth Soccer. Beavah is a member of the organization that owns the League of Youth Soccer. Beavah is an officer of the organization that owns the League of Youth Soccer. This is a different situation. Beavah may, in fact, have the authority to change the rules. It really depends on who owns the League of Youth Soccer.

It definitely skews the numbers. It is more than just going through the motions. In my state, if a kid is expelled from one public school, no other public school is required to take him. Truancy laws vary a lot from state to state. I really couldn't say how an expulsion would affect truancy status.

Some people have commented on race. I think affluence plays a bigger role than race. An affluent family can transfer the kid to a private school. The private school might be local, but it also might be a boarding school out of district. An affluent family can also buy a new house and move to another school district. The school board can still expel the kid. But expulsion hearings cost money, and a school board might feel that it's not worth it to expel a student who's not going to be going to their school anyway. I didn't see this happen during my term on the public school board. I have seen it with students enrolling in Catholic schools.

NJCubScouter It was the last year of an unexpired 3 year term. The previous holder of the office resigned. The time commitment was much greater than he had bargained for. At least that's the story he gave. We had a serious gang problem. Many of the expulsions were for kids who were already in juvi detention. One of the expulsions was for a 7th grader who actually threatened the president of the school board with a knife, on school grounds. He was extorting money from anyone who walked by. We don't believe he knew it was a school board member.

You finally said something I can agree with, Stosh. You are a school administrators worst nightmare.

There seems to be some confusion over what a zero tolerance policy really is. A zero tolerance policy simply states that some types of infractions of the rules, no matter how large or how small, go directly to the school board. A school board has this right. In school board speak, it is called primary jurisdiction. The press and the public like to call it zero tolerance.

Teachers and administrators cannot "bend" the zero tolerance policy. That's the whole point of the policy. If the kid pleads guilty and takes his/her punishment, as proscribed by the policy, it goes no further. If not, it goes to the school board. The only time I ever saw an administrators kid go before the school board, the administrator did not attend. His wife represented their family. The kid was given a fair hearing, without any favor or prejudice.

Krampus seems to place a great deal of importance on the fact that the infraction was committed by an Eagle Scout. I once suspended an Eagle Scout for cheating on a unit exam in my Health class. He was caught red-handed. Guilty as sin. It was also his second offense. He had previously cheated on an English test. He wasn't in our troop. His dad was the Scoutmaster of a neighboring troop. He was the senior patrol leader. Should I have given this little cheat special consideration because he's an Eagle Scout? No way!

In the example Stosh gives, the parent truly is an idiot, for more reasons that one. The teacher's lounge is well stocked with knives, spatulas, and every assorted piece of kitchenware that a teacher might need for a classroom celebration. They're kept in a locked drawer.

I was an elected public school board member for 1 term. Hated it. I'll never do that again. However, I did come away with some knowledge of how school boards work. All students have the right to ask for a school board hearing to challenge a suspension. Expulsion get an automatic review. This is a common sense review. The school board is free to act as they see right. During my term, I sat on 40 expulsion hearings. Most expulsions were obvious, clear-cut violations. A handful had their punishments reduced. Two were exonerated completely. I considered the review authority of the school board to be one of its most important duties. Yet, while I was running for office, not a single constituent asked me a question about it.

I don't agree that zero tolerance policies are universally disliked by everyone not in the education field. My observation is that there is great public support for these zero tolerance policies, mostly from parents. These policies wouldn't exist if they didn't have support from parents.

The people who are the most vocal in opposing zero tolerance policies, are usually the same people who oppose allowing teachers, coaches, and scout leaders to exercise judgement. When a judgement goes against them, they lawyer up. Teachers, coaches, and scout leaders used to be allowed to exercise their judgement to provide us with good order and discipline in our schools and youth programs, but not anymore. I'm not a big fan of inflexible policies, but they do seem to be necessary. It's no longer a choice between zero tolerance or judgement. It's either zero tolerance or no discipline at all.

I couldn't agree with you more, Beavah. Thank you. As a teacher, I am naturally a bit biased, but I really don't believe teachers are the bad guys. I like teachers. When I was a young, newly minted teacher, I had an experience I will never forget. A family at our school owned a small mom-and-pop business, a racquetball club. It wasn't like these big box fitness centers they have now. It was a small business. One day, we had a flash flood in town. The wooden floors of the racquetball courts were ruined. Insurance didn't cover it. The family faced bankruptcy. We had a middle school shop teacher with some serious skills. Under the expert supervision of the shop teacher, the teachers of our school volunteered a weekend and rebuilt the racquetball courts. I love being a teacher.

Some of you guys are much more knowledgeable about scouting history than am I. Do you know what the threshold was in olden days? I'd heard stories from my father's generation suggesting that the threshold was much lower back then. Simply telling a lie could get you the boot. I don't know if these stories were true or not.

As an interesting side note to the discussion, I think many of the public school Catholics wouldn't want to participate in our sports programs. Our boys take group showers, just like many of us did back in the day. The public school doesn't have shower facilities in their locker rooms.

I totally agree. That sort of thinking is short sighted. Allowing home-school and public school Catholics to join select activities is a great recruitment tool. If they like your scout unit, or your music program, or your basketball team, they might decide to join the school as well. These participants should still be held to the same standards as the Catholic school students.

I know of a few Catholic school leagues that are parish based rather than school based. Members of a parish who home-school their kids or send them to public schools are still eligible to have their kids play in those leagues. Milwaukee used to have a parish based league. I don't know if it still exists. I actually like that system much better.

Yes, PTA is a private organization. Units owned by a PTA are not school owned units. Many schools have formed groups similar to PTA, but which are actually school owned groups. Units sponsored by one of these groups are school owned.

Thanks for correcting me, Stosh. One of the things I deal with on a daily basis is athletic eligibility. It has always been my understanding that a kid has to be a full-time registered student to be eligible to play. I have also always understood that I need to check student athletes' grades on a weekly basis, which would be impossible for a home-school kid. I have also always been under the impression that extracurricular activities are considered a privilege, and not a right. Thanks again for setting me straight.

Yes and no. We allow home-school kids to participate in a limited selection of academic and extracurricular activities. They must fill out a special form, which technically makes them part-time students. It may be in the best interest of an individual student to be given straight A's regardless of actual academic progress, or at least some parents seem to think so, but we won't do that. We do have a reputation to protect

You can't imagine how many times I have heard parents protest their kid's suspension using the very same words spoken in the posts on this thread. It doesn't work. The kid still gets suspended. Is this over-reach? It's an interesting question. I'm glad you brought it up. If it is, I can tell you that the trend in schools is moving toward ever-increasing over-reach. The most recent example that comes to mind is that of social media bullying. My school has recently adopted a policy making it an offense, punishable by the school, for one student to harass or bully another student on social media. It doesn't matter if it occurs in-school or out-of-school. Pre-existing policies have also been expanded to include more and more activities. Rules that were designed just for sports teams are now being applied across the board to include all extracurricular activities, including scouting. This is because many people feel it is unfair, even discriminatory, to impose strict zero-tolerance policies on athletes and give a pass to other clubs and activities. If schools are going to have scout units, then people will have to accept the fact that they will have to comply with the same rules, policies, practices, and standards that all other school activities must follow. Otherwise, there is only one alternative. The schools must drop scouting. Is that what you want?

You are not paraphrasing my comments accurately, Stosh. Be fair. You and your buddies willfully disobeyed your Scoutmaster. Your Scoutmaster said no, and you did it anyway. My unit has always allowed patrol activities, including hikes and campouts. In fact, we encourage it. We do require that the boys submit a brief summary of their planned activity and get Scoutmaster approval. With or without parental approval, this was an unapproved scouting activity. It was willful disobedience. Yes, if boys behaved that way in my unit, they would be booted out of the program.

I don't think it's just in my neck of the woods, Stosh. I've been to a lot of teacher conferences and Athletic Director workshops all over the country. I seems to be a pretty common rule. I've been a coach for 40 years. As far as I know, it has always been the rule.