David CO

Eagle94-A1, The unit you describe has a much larger problem that has nothing to do with it not having a unit commissioner. It doesn't have an active Chartered Organization. The Scoutmaster should not be appointing other unit leaders. With a strong, active Chartered Organization, a unit has no need for a unit commissioner.

Eagle94-A1, The Chartered Organization is not appointed to the unit. The CO owns the unit. One CO can transfer ownership of a unit over to another CO, but the council cannot appoint a CO. The CO owns the unit, not the council. The CO is not the friend, teacher, counselor, and doctor to the unit. The CO is the owner of the unit.

It is not nearly so enjoyable to realize, when The Latin Scot was a Wolf Cub, I was middle aged.

In the Cub Scout forum, Chris speculated that I am in the camp of those who take the view that unit commissioners are "council spies." Not true. My unit is very transparent. The council has no need to "spy" on my unit. All of our unit activities are conducted in open view of the public, and all of our record are available for the asking. My main objection to the commissioners corp is that they are not what they claim to be. A unit commissioner is not a friend, counselor, teacher, or doctor to the unit. We get to choose our friends. We don't get to choose our commissioners. Despite the title, a unit commissioner is not a member of the unit. The UC is not appointed or approved by the unit's Chartered Organization. The UC is appointed by the council. The UC is the servant of the council, not the friend of the unit. The UC is only interested in pleasing the council and promoting the council's agenda, which is usually not in the best interest of the unit. The unit commissioner is not the council's "spy", but he/she is the council's toady.

I disagree with Chris. I think it would be a bad idea for a den leader to leapfrog over the CM, CC, and COR, and take the problem to the council. This is a unit problem, and it should be handled at the unit level. If things are really so bad that you would consider complaining to the council, then it really is time for you to change units. But don't go crying to council.

Some volunteers in scouting will hold more than one position and do more than one job. This might be OK if you are an experience scout leader and you have the time. If you are a new scout leader, I would strongly advise you to limit your involvement to just one job. Den Leader is a great position for a new scout leader. Let someone else plan pack activities. Let someone else worry worry about pack leadership. You have a big enough job with your Tiger Den. I know that it is tempting to get more involved in the pack, particularly when you see that things aren't being done right. Try to resist that urge. I have seen many new scout leaders become overwhelmed and discouraged because they took on too much too soon. Some left the unit. Some left scouting altogether. I very much hope that doesn't happen to you.

I think you are getting some misinformation, particularly in regard to who can, and cannot, sign application forms. I am not aware of any rule that would prohibit an untrained leader from signing a document, such as an application form. I'm also pretty certain that the former CM can't sign anything. It doesn't really matter how much training he/she has had, or what positions of responsibility he/she has held in the past. Of course, if the former CM now holds a new position of responsibility, such as CC or COR, that would be different. But in that case, you should probably refer to him/her by his/her current POS, and not as the former CM. In my unit, the Chartered Organization (COR or IH) reserves the right to approve and sign off on all adult applications.

I was a YMCA lifeguard, so I find it difficult to imagine that a real lifeguard would ever do such a thing. I have heard that some hotels will have one of their minimum wage employees pose as a lifeguard, rather than pay for a fully trained and qualified lifeguard.

I actually know of a real situation in which an off duty lifeguard refused to jump into the hotel swimming pool to save a drowning man. The drowning man's young children managed to get the attention of a non-swimmer passing by, who promptly jumped into the deep end of the pool and "bunny-hopped" the drowning man and himself safely to the edge of the pool. The rescuer won the Carnegie Medal for Civilian Heroism.

People can sometimes imagine that they have more authority than they really have. I have had this problem with our patrol boys. A patrol boy's job is to help younger children cross the street. A patrol boy does not have authority to stop cars or direct traffic. An adult crossing guard (assigned by the police department) is allowed to stop traffic. A patrol boy is not. A scout uniform, first class scout rank, and a First Aid merit badge do not confer any sort of authority on a boy. A Boy Scout should always defer to an adult who has real authority.

A merit badge is not a credential. I am an experienced Health teacher and First Aid instructor, yet I would immediately cede control to a police officer, fire fighter, or EMT who arrives on the scene.

Some of our kids feel lucky if their parents let them go trick-or-treat.

A unit isn't required to sell popcorn, camp cards, and donate to FOS. We don't. If the council fees are becoming too much for your unit, perhaps you should reduce your FOS donations.

Actually, the scouting budget is quite small compared to most of our extra-curricular activities. Basketball and football are far more expensive (per participant) than scouting.

No, a unit cannot opt out of a council. If a unit could opt out of a council, I would have done it years ago.

I don't like the idea of councils using the federally subsidized school lunch program as the basis for eligibility for scouting discounts and scholarships. Many schools don't participate in the lunch program. Even when they do, many families choose not to sign up. It is becoming increasingly common for youth serving groups and agencies to use the lunch program eligibility this way. I don't think a family should have to sign up for a federal lunch program (they do not want) in order to qualify for a scouting discount or scholarship.

I believe in majority rule, but I do not believe that the majority is always right. I certainly don't believe that the majority is always virtuous. The majority does not always produce the best governance. Far from it.

I wonder if the boys go to a Catholic school? Most Catholic schools offer tuition discounts when families enroll more than one child. The parents may simply be used to getting a multi-child discount. My school takes a significant financial loss when enrolling large families, but we feel that it is worth it. Our large families add a lot of stability to to our school, providing us with a more steady enrollment of students and volunteers. Are you bad for not providing a multi-child discount? Not at all. But I do feel that you may be passing up a good opportunity to add stability and growth for your unit.

St. Patrick's Day is actually a church holiday. It is appropriate for Catholics to celebrate any saint's holiday regardless of their ethnic background. There are a few Native American saints. I have seen Catholic schools have celebrations in honor of these saints, complete with clothing and decorations appropriate to the saint's era and ethnicity. I would not consider this cultural appropriation. Neither would my CO. What the OA is doing is something completely different.

I hear you. I was in the Lone Scouts and the Lone Indian Fellowship, and we actually did more cultural appropriation than the OA. We used to say something very similar to what you are saying now. BSA took all the NA stuff out of the Lone Scouts years ago, and today, Lone Scouting bears little resemblance to the program I went through. Even if it weren't for the cultural appropriation issues, we couldn't do the same things today because of the youth protection issues. We sometimes wore outfits that left us nearly naked. They were authentic. Too authentic, as a matter of fact. We simply can't do that stuff anymore. Those days are gone. They're gone for the Lone Scouts. They are soon to be gone for the OA.

I don't know of any statistics that show how many Chartered Organizations really pick the units leaders, but I would be very interested to see it if someone actually has that information. Has this forum ever done a poll on this question? I am very surprised that T2Eagle hasn't seen it once in 40+ years of scouting. My Chartered Organization very definitely chooses the leadership. I think it is better this way, because it stops all of this petty bickering and political in-fighting.

Since you have already decided to leave the pack and move on, I have no comments or suggestion to make regarding your former pack. If your son has only 5 more months to go as a cub scout, it is now time for you to start looking at Boy Scout troops to determine which unit would be best for your family. My suggestion is that you learn from your recent bad experience and look for a troop with an active Chartered Organization and a good COR.

Hedgehog, I have said, several times already, the decision to not participate in OA was made by my Chartered Organization in response to the cultural appropriation issue. Even in the most youth-lead units, the Chartered Organization has the right to set policy, particularly if the actions of the unit might be seen to reflect badly on the CO. The reason I found the remark interesting is because my CO made the decision to avoid conduct that might be perceived as racial prejudice. It seems to me that my CO is being accused of prejudiced behavior for choosing to avoid prejudiced behavior. Sometimes, you just can't win either way. You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

Well, you're the one who started all this talk on this thread about the OA being the "best of the best." Are you telling me that you are not a member of the OA? If that is the case, then I will withdraw my remark. I agree that testimonials from outside the OA would be more meaningful than self-praising by OA members.

On this point, I have to agree. There is a lot of this behavior in adult unit leaders as well.