dave.424

I could start a new thread, but this seemed like a good spot to ask if there is any statute of limitations on receiving knots. My former pack didn't put a lot of emphasis on it until near the end of my tenure. I also get a sense that some of my fellow ASM's think they're a little showy for adults to were. However, after recently completing my leader specific and outdoor training and preparing for Wood Badge in the fall, I'm thinking that I would like to put in for them if it's not too late. Specifically, I'm pretty sure I'd qualify for the Tiger, Den, and Webelos Leader awards. Would I go back to the pack and submit them or go through my troop committee?

I got a call last night that Bobby Scussel, the father of a former Webelos scout of mine, was found dead in his home Saturday night. I believe he was only about 30 years old. He leaves behind his wife (Christine) of just over a year, son (Nick, 11), and daughter (Katie, ~8). Actually, Bobby was Nick and Katie's uncle by birth, but he and Christine adopted the two a couple of years ago. Needless to say, Nick and Katie have had their share of troubles in their lives. Please keep the whole family in your prayers. Thanks, Dave Self

I found this thread very useful. I was looking for info on when volunteering at our District's Cub Scout Day Camp would be appropriate for 2C, Star or Life hours. FYI, my son happens to be an acolyte at our church and it is an integral part of our service and a commitment that I think could be considered. Personally, I'd encourage him to find other ways to get the hours just to get him to do something new and different. However, I don't think it is akin to passing out papers for his Sunday School teacher. Dave

I just started out dry cleaning them when we first began scouts because I just thought it would be easier on them. I only get them cleaned about once a month or so and only at the $1.89 (formerly $1.75) cleaners. It's just annoying that they'd come out with these fancy-shmancy patches that don't hold up. Does no one else dry clean theirs? Anyone?

I have found that the new Centennial Quality Unit patches do not hold up to dry cleaning. After getting them back today I noticed that the inset oval with the centennial logo was missing. Apparently, there is a quality issue with these patches. If anyone else dry cleans theirs, you may may want to attach them with Velcro as a few people in our troop have been doing with some of their frequently changing patches and badges. Have others seen this problem? Does anyone else dry clean their uniforms? I'd be interested in hearing thoughts on the general advantages and disadvantages to dry cleaning verses normal washing of "class A" uniform shirts. Also, if anyone has washed their uniforms since adding the new QU patch, please reply with whether they hold up well to that. Thanks.

Thanks to everyone that has expressed their condolences to the Dominic's family. I passed the link to this thread to one of our troops ASM's who is a personal friend of his family. Some had asked if the family had a fund to donate to in his memory. The following, including information on a book fund in his honor, was published in the local paper. * * * * * Dominic Christopher Zahlis, of Columbia, died Jan. 27, 2008, due to leukemia and a stroke, at Johns Hopkins Hospital. He was 10. Born Aug. 11, 1997, in Anaheim, Calif., to Christopher and Andrea Zahlis, he attended Bollman Bridge Elementary School in Jessup. His parents described Dominic as "a gifted boy, with a huge heart and great mind. In his brief time with us, he was a caring and thoughtful friend who enjoyed life fully. His amazing imagination and sincerity brought joy to all that knew him. He was a boy with big plans, and our world mourns the loss of someone with the ability and selfless nature to make a difference." In addition to his parents, he is survived by two sisters, Corinne Zahlis and Audrey Zahlis, both of Columbia; a network of grandparents, aunts, uncles and cousins in California and Maryland; and friends in his Huntington neighborhood. Funeral services are scheduled for Thursday, Jan. 31, 2008, 11 a.m., at Laurel Presbyterian Church, 7610 Sandy Spring Road, Laurel, MD 20707. Interment will occur at a later date. Due to his love of reading, donations to buy books for his schools are being accepted. E-mail Caren Mitchell at RememberDominic@comcast.net. * * * * *

Thanks, all. Our troop, and I think scouts from around our District, will be attending his viewing tonight. Kat, the SotE is the award we are working on getting for his family. Dave

A young Webelos in our area and who was planning to bridge to our troop in a couple of weeks passed away suddenly on Sunday. He was fine all week, but was leaving school early on Friday because he wasn't feeling well. The family learned that evening that he had an advanced form of Leukemia. He had a stroke late Friday night and was removed from life support on Sunday. Please pray for this scout's friends and family. It is hard to lose a child, but when it is so sudden, it must be even harder since you don't have any time to deal with the idea that it may happen. We felt that he was a part of our troop family and one of our ASM's got with district and council to initiate the process for his receiving the Spirit of Scouting Award. We got the right people and the process is being fast tracked and should be ready for the pack's bridging ceremony in mid-February when we plan to have him ceremonially bridge with the rest of his den. Although, his name was put out to the community through a newsletter from the school system, I'm not sure if I should post his full name here yet. For now, just keep Dominic's loved ones in your prayers. Thanks, Dave

Thanks, just thought I''d check here first. "Spoof"?

My son's Webelos den bridged in April. The five that joined the same troop he did decided to be the Chameleon patrol. Creativity is great and all, but of course we had to investigate custom patches. After several weeks of going back and forth with a couple of designs, I placed an order with BSA Custom Embroidery in June and received the order in July just before our summer camp week and our break for August. I brought them to our first meeting of the new year last night only to find that TPTB decided to consolidate the patrols and since only 2 Chameleons were present, they got matched up with another patrol and will no longer be the Chameleons. So much for my lovely patches. Since we originally had six boys in the patrol and had to order a minimum of 12, it cost each family $13 for two patches. One boy has "disappeared", so I'm stuck with 4 myself and some of the others might be willing to part with one or both of theirs since they are no longer needed. Would anyone be insterested in any of these unique, but now useless patches? Will upload a pic to my website this evening and post a link tomorrow. They really did come out nice.

John-in-KC: Uniform Guide says "Adults shall not wear youth specific articles of uniform." GNX Guy: Den Leaders wear the "Den 11" patch or the "Alligator" den patch? infoscouter: I have *never* seen an adult Cub Scouter wear a den patch to which s/he was not entitled (by virtue of being a den leader). infoscouter, I think that was exactcly what GNX guy was saying. Den Leaders wear the same den patch their scouts wear. Although, I've always seen that as standard practice, it seems to conflict with the specific reg that John-in-KC sited. I imagine that it must be specified somewhere as an exception.

All, thanks for your input. That's why I find these forums so useful. mrclark, I am not irked or bothered at this decision. I simply wanted to seek out others' opinions. The SM is new and although his older son has been in the troop for about a year, he had been more involved the pack that both of our sons were in until April. I've definitely made myself available. My former WL uniform has been calling out to me to get back in the action and I think I'll be serving as an ASM / Patrol Guide. SM have a briefing at the committee meeting on his vision for the troop and I definitely think it was great stuff. As I said, just putting out feelers. Dave

Our new scoutmaster has suggested that the uniformed program Adults form a patrol to demonstrate good patrol practices to the boys. I was just curious if other have experience with this. I'm a parent of a just scout who has just recently bridge over from Webelos, so I'm just looking for opinions of other folks. The patch he had is an owl, but it has an orage border (which made me think of Hooters). I'm not sure where he got them, since I thought that offical patrol emblems had to have the standard tan / khaki background and border. Any thoughts? Thanks, Dave

BrentAllen wrote: And the evidence is that CO2 levels rose AFTER warming in the past, not before it. That kills their theory, plain and simple. Merlyn_LeRoy wrote: No, it doesn't. What needs to be shown to kill the theory is that CO2 emissions from human sources will not affect the average global temperature to a significant degree, and the above doesn't come anywhere near that. It would seem to me that IF the evidence shows that X precedes Y, then it would follow that Y does not cause X.

FScouter: " Not trying to defend his non-payment at all, but, you said "pay, or else". He chose the "or else". When it comes to registration fees or any fees, a good policy is to register those that have paid, and notify the others they have opted out." * * * True, expecpt he didn't tell us what he was choosing. This was also after he said, "Yes, please register my son and will send you a check." Of course, it was the CC that opted to register him without first gettting the money and to make the arrow without ever having gotten the money. To me the worst part isn't necessarily the money, but the fact that he opted to completely ignore me and the CC over the last couple of months. If he'd at least said, "I'm sorry, but I just can't pay you," or "You guys have really offended me and I'm out of here", or anything, I might not feel quite so annoyed. I do agree that the "money or else" is the way to go, though. After all, it's not the parents that are promising to be trustworthy, loyal, helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, obedient, cheerful, thrifty, brave, clean and reverent. We'd hope they'd model these traits for their children, though.(This message has been edited by david.self)

Thanks, kb. Yep. That's my lesson learned and not just for him. Though, I was in the scout shop yesterday before the ceremony and picked up 2 spare spiral bound Boy Scout handbooks. I'd had one parent who'd asked me about it a couple days ago and was pretty sure some one else in my den would need one. I figured someone out of the two dens would need one. Worst case, I could return them to the store. I tried to at least set a deadline with him over his son not getting his career arrow, but our CC did one up anyway. At least they'll be able to reuse the mounting since she didn't attach the engraved plaque to it. I had couple of families pay and then ended up not going, but they understood they wouldn't get a refund and didn't make a fuss. MSC was willing to allow us to use the paid for, but unused slots on a second, smaller group, but I put the word out and no on responded. It's just so frustrating. Especially in contrast to the thanks and apprciation I received from the other parents and boys in the den. You just need to try and put these things behind you, but when you have to continue to deal with the offending individuals, it's that much more difficult.

My den bridged over to Boy Scouts last night. All the boys present in both graduating Webelos dens had earned their Arrow of Light award, with the exception on one boy who had just joined this year. OA reps had a nice ceremony after which each of the boys were presented with their career arrows. There were speeches, gifts and hugs. It was a great ceremony and, I'll admit, an emotional night. Here is where I'm a bit conflicted and may have a difficult situation once I start getting involved with my son's troop. I had one boy in my den who joined as a Bear. For first year and half or so, he was involved in various sports, but still managed to be pretty active with the den. Since January, he'd pretty much disappeared - only making it to two den meetings and no pack meetings or other events. However, he managed to attend three of the four troop visits and his dad assured me he was going to continue on to Boy Scouts and would start making more meetings as soon as his basketball season ended. I last saw or heard from them at our second to last den meeting. He did not even show up for briding last night. The dad owes the pack registration money for this year because he assured the CC that his son was re-upping and would send her a check. A good chunk of this money goes to pay for the carreer arrows, plaques and engraving that we have done in addition to what we had to send to council. Although I sent him a note and cc'd our CC that she would need his registration money by a certain date or we wouldn't be able to commission an arrow for him, she did go ahead and do the arrow so that if they made good and ended up actually briding the scout wouldn't be left without one. I was also a softy and registered the 2 of them for our camp-in at the Maryland Science Center based on his word that he'd make good. They didn't end up going and, of course, there are no refunds from MSC. Despite an e-mail in February specifically saying that he'd stil get me a check, I not seen a dime. I know I've learned a lesson and hope that our CC has, as well. Also, I never received the son's troop selection after multiple requests. Not even an "he's not sure". I noticed the other day, though, that the dad was signed up for the Yahoo group of the troop my son is now in. I sort of assume this means they are joining the troop and the son would likely end up being in my son's patrol and I'd have to deal with the dad. I just feel that he has spit in both mine and the pack's face. I will find it a challenge to be civil with him, but will strive to do so. OK. There. I've vented. Thanks for listening.

"Bottom line: You can wear all of your knots on any uniform." This thread is talking about scouter uniforms, but I was actually looking to see if my son can where the square knot he received for earning God and Family RE can where it on his Boy Scout uniform. I know the Arrow of Light is the the "only award that from CS that can be worn on the Boy Scout uniform", but thought I'd read that square knots were also allowed. Curious, Dave

FYI, we had our day hike today. Vistied Patapsico Valley State Park today for what was originally going to be a 3.5 mile hike that ended up being about 5 after we took a couple of intentional detours. Four of our boys, including my son, went and we had a great hike. We found a couple of geocaches along the way, including one that had been placed by a local pack. They loved the treasure hunting and enjoyed some old foundations we found. We also had a fairly close encounter with a deer. She crossed our path a little ahead of us and the boys actually remained silent until she'd had her fill of grass and made her way past.(This message has been edited by david.self)

Thanks, LH. At one point, I thought that it would be a relief to no longer have to try to deal with certain non-responsive parents once the boys had made the transition to a troop. It is frustrating when the boys suffer because of a lack of support at home. Last night was our final den meeting and it really was sort of sad. No matter the occassional frustrations, I will definitely miss being a den leader. I hope to be able to keep up with the ones not going to the troop my son is joining. (Hmm...It's occuring to me that perhaps I should have selected a more ambiguous username.)

LH, unfortunately this forum doesn't allow you to reply to specific messages within a topic, so I'm not sure if you are refering to something I said or jblake47's comments about participating in something with a troop. If the latter, I'd think that if his Webelos den is accompanying a troop on an activity, he's still doing it with his den. No? If the former, the hike we have planned will be a den hike and at least a few other boys will be along. I also thought you could be replying to Gonzo1's idea of him transitioning later. That would pretty much preclude the requirement from being done witht he den. If I've managed three strikes, please let me know if you were commenting on something else I may have said.

Welcome. I'm new myself, but have found the forums quite informative and entertaining. I been a den leader since Tigers and my boys are bridging next week. I wish I'd discovered this resource sooner.

I talked to the scout and his mother and we are going on a 3 or so mile hike on Saturday. This was my preference from the begining. I just wanted to confirm that I was on the right track in not seriously considering spitting a single two night camping trip into two requirements or counting the two miles we covered during the KD. Our pack does two family camping trips a year, we have participated in Webelos-O-Ree both years and even joined one troop on a cabin camping trip in January. One weakness is that we've really only done one hike that we worked into Outdoorsman and Forester. My son and the one boy that has been with him since Tigers have pretty much gone on every camping trip the pack has offered.We only have one boy that has specifically seemed not to enjoy camping too much. I'd have to say that the reason some of our boys have not gone on as many trips as they could have has been because of parents not making the effort or time to take them. Since I can not be directly responsible for anyone but my own son, all I can do is make them aware of the trips and encourage them to participate. Lack of response from parents has been my biggest frustration as a den leader. I really wish I'd taken advantage of this forum earlier. It's great to get a variety of new persectives.

Oh, I definitely would make it more than just a walk. We'd likely include some of the items you listed. Here is another though. We covered 2 miles (in snow and ice) for our Klondike Derby this year. If a 'DH' could be in the 2-3 mile range, would you consider applying that toward AoL?

I have a Web II who has about everything he needs for Arrow of Light, except for req. 5 (Webelos overnight campout or day hike). He has gone on one overnight campout with the den that he used for Outdoorsman. We bridge in 1 week, so I know we won't be camping. However, I have offered to schedule a day hike for this Saturday if this particular boy will participate. I put out a general message to the den a month or more ago saying that some of the boys could really use one, but I'd only schedule if it I got some committments to participate (or at least replies of interest). I got only one reply from a parent that let me know his son would not be able to make it. I received NO other replies, so didn't schedule the hike. My main question is what exactly constitutes a day hike? I've assumed it is more than "any hike during the day". A 3 mile hike is one of the options for Outdoorsman. Based on that, I have generally thought that a day hike should be longer, especially since it would serve as a substitute for an overnight campout. Something you start in the morning, break for lunch and finish in the afternoon. Probaly 6+ miles. Am I on track? I don't want to deny him the AoL because I am being to strict in my interpretation nor award it to him if he has not properly completed all of the requirements. Something else, I have not really seriously considered, but figured I'd ask for feedback on. You can not use the same overnight campout for both Outdoorsman and AoL. However, if you had a one night camping trip one week and another the next week it would meet both requirements. What about a 2 night camping trip? Could that be considered 2 overnight campouts? As I said, I'm not trying to have him skirt the requirements, but neither do I want to deny him because I am interpreting the requirements too narrowly. Half my den has already earned AoL, a few others are just not close, but this one boy is just so close that I want to make sure I do the right thing. Comments? Thanks.