DanKroh

Merlyn, thanks for those links. Very interesting stuff, especially this excerpt from a letter to CoG from the National office: "Let me assure you that it was not my intention to offend you or anyone of your faith. After further discussion, the Boy Scouts of America still respectfully declines your request to become a chartering organization. Thank you for your interest. However, we feel that no useful purpose would be served by continuing this dialogue. Very truly yours, Donald L. Townsend, Director Relationships Division" Well, there it is.

edpalmer: Interesting that the BSA prefers American Indian. Personally, I tend to use whatever terminology those that self-identify as belong to that group prefer. Since most of the Pagans I know who self-identify as Native American prefer that term, that is what I tend to use. I doubt they honestly care what the BSA prefers to call them. TheScout: Yes, please, lets make things easier for the Judeo-Christians, by all means. If anyone else wants to earn an emblem of their faith and wear it on the uniform, too bad for them. Oh, sorry, is my cynicism showing? It has become painfully obvious from this thread and several other related ones that have been active lately that the BSA forces a thin veneer of "tolerance" onto the prejudices and ignorance of some of its members in the name of "reverence" and "respect for others" without ever addressing the underlying ignorance and prejudices. Unfortunately, when that happens, that veneer is going to crack, and the ugliness beneath is going to seep out. National talks about acceptance of all religions, but they take obvious strides to exclude certain religions from enjoying the perks (i.e. religious emblems, being COs, being part of the groups that makes decisions). Is it any wonder that such mixed messages filter down to the leaders and membership, who then think that it is ok express prejudice towards the members of minority religions? After all, tolerance doesn't mean we actually have to *accept* them, right?

Beaver and AntelopeDud, I'm so sorry to hear that the situation could not have a better outcome. The death of any young person is a difficult thing, and one by their own hand brings up many feelings of guilt in those left behind. I'm so glad to hear that you are having a professional counselor come to the troop. Be sure to listen to his/her words yourself. We think most about the lost one's peers at this time, but the adults are just as affected. I pray that everyone will find a peace within themselves about this sad tragedy. I hope the family finds solace in allowing the tissue and organ donations, it really can be a miracle to those who receive life from someone else's death. Peace, understanding, and comfort to you all.

Hey Beaver, keep us posted as you can, would you please? I'm sure we'd all like to know whether the young man pulls through (while realizing things may be status quo for a while). Thanks.

Our pack is very big on beltloops. The boys really love getting them, and love showing off a belt full of them. That said, our pack does pay for each actual beltloop only once, although the boys can earn them more than once. Some of them, it's almost guaranteed they will earn more than once, since they may do the same sport every year, or have to earn some of them again as Webelos as part of the Webelos activity pins. But I agree that if you have a boy who is earning the same beltloop over and over again, it is time to encourage them to do a little more and earn the pin.

We have a "graduation" ceremony in June where the boys officially move up to the next rank. That is when we start counting activities toward the next rank badge. It also marks the end of when they can still get their previous rank badge. Most of our guys get their rank badges at the Blue & Gold banquet in February, however, if a boy doesn't get all the requirements done by then, he has until the June graduation meeting to finish them and achieve that rank. After that, he begins working on the next rank. If you don't have an official graduation ceremony, like Lisabob said, I've heard of some using June 1 as their cut off date.

Prayers and healing energy going out to the scout, his family, and all those affected by such a desperate situation.

ASM915, gotta make this quick, as I have a meeting in 5 minutes. Yep, got your PM, sent reply, thanks. "Has the CoG, being Earth-Based ever had any dealings with the NA's?" I know that on some of the Pagan forums I participate on, there are NAs who identify as Pagan. But CoG is pretty much a Wiccan organization, and even as such, is still not acknowledged by more traditional Wiccan groups, because they don't have a "lineage". You would not believe how political Pagan groups can be! In short, I've never heard of it happening, but doesn't mean it couldn't. But not all Pagan religions are Earth-based, and there are a lot of small religions that fall under the Pagan umbrella.

ASM915, you'll have to refresh my memory on what the modest proprosal was. As far as marinated or barbequed, depends on your location. Definitely marinated in the north, but BBQ in the south is the way to go.

"Do you really think God wants the BSA to abandon their principles and admit anyone? Did Jesus abandon His principles? I don't think so." "The purpose of the second question was that Jesus never abandoned His principles so I don't think He wants the BSA to abandon Him." You know, Ed, I never considered myself someone who was easily rendered speechless, but you seem to have a knack for it. .... Ok, now that I'm over that, I've got a couple of questions regarding your posts: What exactly is the nature of the relationship between the BSA and Jesus that He might feel abandoned by the BSA? Has the BSA accepted Jesus as it's personal savior? Do you feel that the BSA abandoned Jesus when they started admitting non-Christians? Since you seem to know what God and Jesus would want, could you ask Him if He also wants the Red Sox' to win the World Series this year?

Thank, Trev, that's what I thought.

Beaver, I agree with your point about membership on the Religious Relationships committee. I have no problem restricting it to the "major players", as long as those major players don't start making decisions about the religions of the "minor" players without including them in those specific decisions. However, the emblems are another matter. I don't see why having 25 units chartered should be a condition for my son to receive a BSA-recognized emblem from his religion. CoG has taken the time to put together a curriculum, they have shown a commitment to the program. Either the BSA thinks the curriculum is valid or they don't. If they don't, they should give feedback to the CoG on how they can change it to get BSA's approval. This whole "rule of 25" thing seems like a lot of horseapples to me, quite frankly, and a way to say no without giving any valid reasons. As far as having PRAY overloaded with providing awards, the CoG seems to be quite happy to administrate the award themselves. Again, if PRAY wants to limit what awards they administrate to those for the "major players", that's fine. Let the individual minor religions administrate their own. It's not like the demand for a minority religion is going to be overwhelming. PRAY is not the BSA, and the BSA can give their approval of the award independently of whether PRAY is willing to administrate it. Are there any other awards that don't go through PRAY currently? LongHaul, Thanks for your feedback. The document is not actually mine, as in, I had no input into its creation, but I am interested in getting involved with CoG for this issue. So I will happily pass your concerns along to them.

No problem, LH. My doctorate is in psychology, so I'm not an M.D., but a Psy.D. I did take a lot of pharmacology classes, and I know a lot about psychotropics because, well, it helps a lot in my practice to know what I'm talking about. Plus I have a lot of personal experience with these particular class of meds. I just wanted to put that disclaimer out there though, because I don't actually prescribe. I hope any info you gleaned from that was still helpful.

"If you please, What is the "Rule of 25"? twenty five what?" Oh, sorry. It was discussed in the thread I spun this off of. The "Rule fo 25" is the BSA's rule that in order for your religious organization to be part of the Religious Relationship committee or to have a "BSA approved" religious emblem, you have to have at least 25 unit chartered to your religious organization. Which is next to impossible for any Pagan religion to achieve, since very few even HAVE a parent organization (Wicca being one of the few) and few formal organizations that would be able to successfully charter a unit.

Our pack meetings are held one Friday night a month, usually the third Friday. But our dens meet at different times at the convenience of the each den. My suggestion would be that if you have a schedule that works for all your dens, take one of those times each month for your pack meeting. In reality, most of our dens only meet about twice a month anyway, so as long as your dens are still meeting as dens at least that often, I think you are going well. Plus, try to get some sort of activity that is not a pack or den meeting once a month or so. Plan a pack hike, bowling night, movie night, baseball game, something that the pack can do together that is not a formal meeting and is (preferably) outdoors. As far as the focus of the pack meeting, having outside entertainment on special occasions is good, but I think that should not be the only thing you do at pack meetings. Meetings should also include things that the boys do (games, skits, songs, etc) that keep them moving. Even when you are being entertained, sitting in a chair (or on the floor) for an hour is hard for boys in this age group. Also, give each den a chance to showcase the things that they have done as a den, it will give them a sense of accomplishment and pride in their scouting experience. I've been Cubmaster for about a year now, and I can tell you, you are going to have a blast. Good luck!

"If I get my son another uniform shirt so he can have one long-sleeved and one short-sleeved, how can I get a duplicate rank emblem? I can't just pick it up from the shop." When I made a second shirt for my son, I did just that. I just explained to the clerk what I was doing, and he sold me the patches. I was even able to get a second quality unit patch for him. I've also bought a couple of replacement merit badges when the culprit in losing the originals was, ahem, me. Maybe it's because the guy in the scout shop knows me at this point and believes I'm trustworthy (bwahahahaha...j/k), but I think he'd probably do the same for any parent who came in with a similar explanation. Call your shop and check before you worry about jumping through a lot of hoops. Worse thing they'll do is tell you what hoops you need to jump through to get an extra patch.

Ok, so as not to completely hijack the other thread, here's a question for folks who are familiar with the religious emblem program, and might know more about the requirements of their religion than I do. I've studied the instructions for the all the UU emblems (the UUA Cub and Boy Scout, and the UUSO Boy Scout ones), and I can see the differences between the UUA and UUSO programs that the BSA objects to. Not that I want this thread to be a discussion of whether it is appropriate for the BSA to object. My question is, not being familiar with the specific requirements for a bunch of other religions, is there anything in the CoG emblems requirements that you think the BSA should/could/do find objectionable? Here are links to the two programs: Over the Moon (Cub Scout level): http://www.cog.org/projects/overmoon.pdf Hart and Crescent (Boy Scout level): http://www.cog.org/projects/hartcrescent.pdf As a Wiccan, I can attest that these programs are certainly appropriate to teach any child about what things are important to the Wiccan faith. The official ruling on denying the emblems was the "Rule of 25". But is there anything in there that the BSA might object to? Or is it just that deep down, as has been suggested, someone at National finds the whole idea of Wicca to be "unacceptable"?

"He can't handle any of them. The main three Ritalin, Adderil and Concerta are front end drugs. They cause an increased production of the lacking neural transmitter chemical at the front end to flood the receptors at the back end. Strattera is not a stimulant but a blocking agent at the back end to direct the the lacking chemical to the right receptors. Help me out here Dan." Yep, your analogy is a pretty good one. Strattera is a norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor (for anyone else who would know what that means). The stimulants make the brain manufacture more norephinephrine, while Strattera makes the brain use what norephinephrine it already has more efficienty. "DanK. Liver profiles and platelets for Depakote, TSH levels for HypoT caused from Lithium, (he's on Synthroid)and of course the Lithium levels." Ahh, so he's having his liver stuff checked anyway for other reasons. Lithium... yikes. Yeah, I'm actually a little surprised my son has done as well on Strattera as he has, given that we had previously tried Paxil for some OCD issues and it made him stop sleeping. But their mechanisms are just different enough to make all the difference. Amazing stuff. The wonderful minefield, er, I mean, world of psychotropic pharmaceuticals.(This message has been edited by DanKroh)

"With some meds, and some people you can't cut down quickly or go cold turkey because of withdrawl problems. Doctors believe what the drug companies say. I've seen people weaned off of Paxil in a hellish 2 weeks, and a very comfortable 2 months." Well, SSRIs and other depression/anxiety medications are a whole different animal than ADHD medications. (Paxil is generally not given for ADHD, although sometimes it can be given for comorbid depression or anxiety.) No, stuff like Paxil should ABSOLUTELY not be stopped cold turkey, and even if they were, would not clear the system for 2-3 weeks. But most of the ADHD meds, being amphetamine derivates, have a very short period of efficacy (even the "sustained release" ones); they generally require neither a "ramping up" period nor a "weaning off" period. Most. Strattera being the big exception that comes to mind. Keep also in mind that most of the dosages of ADHD meds, even though they are amphetamine derivatives, are not high enough to produce physical dependancy or physical withdrawal symptoms. Psychological dependancy or withdrawal is another thing entirely.

"I've got a question for Dan and other medical professionals. Is taking a child off meds for two days of any real value to the child? I took Ritalin while I could afford it and both my sons activly take Ritalin, I understand the long term concerns. I had scout in my troop that took Ritalin and his doctor took him off the drug for the summer months to give his system a rest. Clearing the system for 60 to 90 days I understand but 2 days? Does it...no let me rephrase...Can it really make a difference in combating long term use side effects?" Pretty much what ASM915 said. Depends on the half-life. Most of the ADHD medications have a pretty short halflife, so yes, 2 days can see a drug cleared from the system. Is it worth the behavior problems that might crop up? Well, that would also have to be decided on a case-by-case basis. Although, most of the kids I know who go off ADHD medications do it for the summer, so you are talking months of difference. The biggest side effect of these meds is appetite suppression/growth delays. While I have see that 2-3 months can make a big impact as far as catching up on yearly growth, I can't see it happening in 2-3 days, no. Maybe there are other side effects that are being considered here, that I don't have any experience with. My nephew, who is now 21, used to stop Ritalin during the summer, and would have huge growth spurts during that time. He continues to take medication for his ADHD as an adult, and doesn't like to go off his meds at all because he doesn't like feeling "out of control". He tried a couple of years ago, since many with ADHD experience a alleviation of symptoms in early adulthood, but he couldn't function. But he now takes one of the new meds with fewer side effects. But I am not a psychiatrist and I do not precribe meds (end disclaimer) ASM915, my older son also can't take any of the stimulants because they exacerbate his Asperger's behaviors (ticks, compulsive actions, anxiety, etc). But my younger one does fine on Concerta (but he also doesn't have Asperger's). Does your son take Strattera? If so, does he also have his LFTs checked regularly?

"If we want to discuss whether Dan and his Wicca groups should be allowed to charter units lets spin it off so we can finish discussing DRP and do Dan and his Wicca groups justice. Just a thought" Well, while I certainly appreciate the nice thought, I gotta say, HUH? I don't recall posting in this thread at all.

"My understanding is that the CoG was denied membership on the committee because of the so called "Rule of 25", which stipulates that a faith organization must be the chartering partner of at least 25 units nationwide to qualify for membership on the committee. Now, whether this was a clever way of excluding pagans or was a reasonable way to limit the effective size of the commitee to a manageable number is debateable." Ahhh. My confusion; I thought one had to be a member of the subcommittee to be approved as a Chartering Organization. My bad. I wonder if any coven has ever been turned down as a potential CO. For that matter, hasn't the UUA had their approval to be a CO revoked? Although, I gotta tell you that I'm still scratching my head over the Church of Scientology being approved as a CO, given the conditions outlined in the paragraph that Gonzo originally posted. Honestly, I have trouble seeing a unit chartered by a coven being successful, given the climate of intolerance that seems to exist in the general public towards Pagans. And 25 of them? Forgetaboutit.... "There is currently some confusion and debate within the commitee as to whether the Rule applies to membership within the sanctum, recognition of an religious awards program, or both. Because there is no secretary taking meeting minutes and no archive of past decisions, the situation currently looks open to review. I'll try keep you posted as things slooooowly unfold." Thanks, information is always greatly appreciated.

"I think perhaps we may be talking about two different things. The BSA Religious Relationships subcommittee does indeed pass judgement on whether or not a given institution is an appropriate Chartering Organization. I'm not aware of any applicants who have been turned down, but concievably there might be some religious fringe sect that say, glorifies violence, that might be denied as a potential sponsor of a unit." Actually, Trev, I believe that the Covenant of the Goddess has been campaigning for a while now to be on the Religous Relationships subcommittee and has been turned down because they are not seen as a "national organization representing Wicca", even though they represent Wicca and are, well, a national organization. I believe that was part of the impetus for the starting of SpiralScouts (which was started by a CoG elder). "I am aware that this makes some people uncomortable, knowing that they may be rubbing elbows with pagans (sorry, Dan). But that's the way it is." Well, we all know how dangerous those pagan elbows can be....

Gonzo quoted: According to National's website, it says in part: "Virtually every religion is represented in the Boy Scouts of America, from Catholics and Protestants, to the Armenian Church of America and Zoroastrians. The Religious Relationships Committee, which includes over 30 religious groups represented in Scouting, determines whether a religion is an appropriate partner for Scouting, and reviews any duty to God material which is to be used in Scouting for consistency with Boy Scout policies." I believe this paragraph concerns who can become a chartering partner for BSA units, not which religions are acceptable for the members to follow. "I must believe that wicca, witchcraft, paganism, maybe some other isms out there are "unacceptable"." Gonzo, what in particular about Wicca/Paganism do you find "unacceptable"? Witchcraft, btw, is not a religion per se, it is a practice of some people who follow Pagan religions.

Yep, done it twice, the second time as a Tiger Den Leader. It's a great time. Advice: Get there a little early on Friday (edit: or Saturday, or whatever day you are planning to get there) if you can; parking gets *interesting* later on. Take a tour of the sub as well as the battleship. Down the street is a museum that you get free admission to with the Battleship admission. They have a slide show and talk about the history of the Battleship. Definitely worth the walk. Let the kids bring something along to entertain themselves (within reason). Much of the experience is "self-led", and not all cubs, especially Tigers, are really going to have their interest held for an entire day by touring the battleship. Meal times: Line up early. The line gets quite long, and is another good time for the boys to have something entertaining to do while waiting in line. I found the food pretty edible, but if you have a picky eater, you might want to bring an alternative along. Let the kids take the upper bunks. They have a much easier time scrambling in and out of them. Make sure you bring a pillow, and a foam pad to put on top of the canvas bunk will do wonders for your back in the morning. Otherwise, pack as light as you can, since there isn't really anyplace to store bags other than the floor.(This message has been edited by DanKroh)