DanKroh

There is a big difference between Mom or Dad setting up a range (either archery or bb) in their backyard and taking their son to a commercial range where there are NAA or NRA certified instructors running it, very likely to more strict safety standards than I have seen on any BSA range (in my experience). Someone brought up liability. Personally, I think there is a lot more chance for injury to a cub going to a commercial ski slope to earn his snow sports beltloop and pin than at a commercially run shooting range. But they don't restrict that beltloop to council/district events only. Last year, we had two kids who died at local ski slopes from skiing accidents. But none at the commercial shooting ranges in town. We had one boy in our pack who was never able to go to summer camp (which is the only opportunity in our council to earn the shooting sports stuff), because he was in a yearlong program at his school for special needs. But if I had been able to get his parents to take him to the archery range in town, where they teach special needs kids all the time, he could have done it. Personally, I think keeping those programs restricted in Council's way of enticing kids to summer camp. Because none of the other reasons given ever really make sense when you look at them closely.

Here's what I would propose for archery, that the rule *should* be, the archery belt loop and pin can only be earned at a BSA council event, or at a range run by a NAA certified instructor. I don't know if there is a corresponding national certification program for BBs, but if there is, then similar wording for BBs. Now this is a prime example of a situation that doesn't make sense. My younger son, currently a Bear, shoots archery on a regular basis at a commercially run range near our house. He participates in the Junior Olympic Archery Development program, and has shot in national competitions. But he can't earn the beltloop and pin unless he shoots at a Council sponsored program?? Not to mention, the way the pin requirements are worded now, a boy could earn the pin without actually having to shoot any arrows, beyond what he had to shoot to earn the beltloop. National needs to recognize that there are other (one might even hazard, better) avenues for cub scout boys to get safe, quality instruction for archery than council or district run camp ranges. They don't require boys scouts to only earn the archery merit badge at council camps, so why the limitation for cubs?

DenZero, While I probably would have said it a little more gently, I agree in principle with John. The B&G is supposed to be a birthday party for scouting, and should take place in February. If you want to have your main advancement ceremony in June, that's one thing, but I don't think you should call it a B&G. Now, the bigger issue seems to me to be the boys not finishing rank advancement until June. Personally, I think that's a bad call. I think if you set the expectation that they should finish by February, they can and will. If you set the expectation that they won't finish until June, then they probably will put it off until then. But if you set the expectation that they finish in February, then those that truly have a hard time finishing will have some time, but will feel that drive to get it done. If a boy misses the deadline in June, there is no wiggle room. He is done and moved onto the next rank. Not to mention, February gives them time to concentrate on electives, and beltloops and other cool awards; while they can work on electives concurrently, it's not as much of a recognition to get the rank badge and 4 arrow points at once as it is to get the rank badge, then the 4 arrow points as they are earned over March-June. Now, we did have an issue this year in our pack with the Tigers not finishing until June, but I think that was because of the change in the rules last year requiring them to get the Bobcat first. Now that we've had that experience, hopefully next year, we can adjust the program and keep the Tigers on track better for Feb. The June pack meeting should be a celebration of the boys graduating to the next rank, and we try to make it a special event because of that. I think having something cool for the last pack meeting of the year is still important, but not a B&G.

Does anyone know of an instance where someone has started a scout unit within a detention facility for youth offenders? It seems to me that the scout program would be a great addition to try to help some of these kids straightened out. While I agree that having a kid who is actively treading on the wrong side of the law in a regular unit would seem like a recipe for disaster, I would think that a unit made up entirely of troubled kids, led by people who had the professional background to help them, would be a boon. Has such a thing been tried?

SctDad, For the first time in recent memory, our pack is also in the position of awarding Tiger Badges in June. We normally try to get all the boys done with rank advancement by the Blue & Gold banquet in February, so that they can receive their badge as part of a very nice ceremony. However, this year, mostly because of the change requiring the boys to earn Bobcat *before* Tiger, our Tigers weren't ready in February. I am planning on doing something a little special for them at the pack meeting, since they "missed out" at the B&G. I was thinking of the "Scout Spirit" ceremony, using glow stick materials, that I have read about. I think the idea of dry ice is cool, boys are certainly fascinated by it (as are many adults) However, I would also caution that if you are going to set up a "test", make it one that the boys are guaranteed to succeed in. Reaching into a mysterious smoking pot doesn't seem like a big deal to you or me, but it looks much different in the eyes of a 7-year-old, especially if he is the nervous, reserved type. I like the idea of having the parents reach in instead, maybe give the boys/parents the option of letting the boy do it if he wants, but then you'd have to couch it in different terms from a "test of committment". Good luck!

"Maybe you went deeper into Google than I did ("wiccan OR wiccans scout OR scouts OR bsa") or have knowledge otherwise, but while I found several references to wiccans being denied unit charters, not one reference had a who, what, when, or where -- much less a why. Perhaps you can share details if you know or have access to them." Actually, most of what I know is from direct discussions with other Pagans who tried to become chartering partners, who were told that their group "does not represent the values of Scouting", without further explanation of how they don't represent the values of scouting. I think the lack of details you discovered is because the BSA was not forthcoming with much reasoning. "As I recall the 25 unit rule, it was announced in the early 90's. There WAS talk at the time of Wiccans being involved, but also one-church protestant denominations." Yes, in my research into the CoG award, they were stymied by the BSA announcing the 25 unit rule only after they had submitted their curriculum for approval and done everything else the BSA required. Inventing the 25 unit rule gave the BSA a cheap out without having to actually address the content of the curriculum. "As for Covenant of the Goddess itself, is it not more accurate to say that it ASPIRES to be the umbrella organization for all Wiccans? As in, does Universal Federation of Pagans, New Wicca Church, Pagan Allliance, Circle Sanctuary, or Sacred Well acknowledge CoG as their parent organization or representative? I don't know. I just found them via Google, claimed to be organizations that bring Wiccan covens together." Again, the BSA is inconsistent (surprise, surprise) about what constitutes a "national organization". Are the National Catholic Council on Scouting and the National Jewish Committee on Scouting acknowledged as parent organizations and representatives of every Catholic parish and Jewish temple in the country? It seems to me that the CoG has at least as much standing as those organizations. Maybe if they put "National" in their name, that would make a difference... "Also interesting that CoG's religious award was proposed by CoG not merely as an award for Wiccans, but also for Druids, Asatru and Native Americans. Isn't that like the Greek Orthodox Church proposing that they set the standards and issue an award for all Orthodox churches? What would the Druids say about that?" Most Druids I know say "it's cool". Actually, the CoG awards can be used for "any nature-oriented religion" and comes with the disclaimer that "Requirements are Wiccan in orientation, but may be adapted to other faiths by the adult working with the young person". CoG is quite willing to be flexible in the requirements to encourage as many Pagan young people as possible to learn more about their individual paths. Is not the "God and Country" series of awards used by multiple Protestant denominations, even though those denominations vary, sometimes greatly, in their doctrine and practice? The CoG didn't say, "This award shall be for all Pagan religions." They said, "This award is primarily for Wiccans, but other nature-centered religions may find it applied to their faiths as well, and we don't even mind if you adapt the requirements to fit better."

Correction, it was the Aquarian Tabernacle that started Spiral Scouts, not Correllian Nativist Church. My bad.

Tahawk, "'There is no national Wiccan organization,' Shields said. 'So, that's why there is no religious award for Wiccans.'" There is a national Wiccan organization, Covenant of the Goddess. They even developed curricula for both Cub Scout and Boy Scout level awards. There is no religious award approved by the BSA for Wiccans because after CoG jumped through all the hoops that *were* there, the BSA created another hoop they couldn't jump through, the rule that they had to have 25 units chartered. "He encouraged any Wiccan group that would like to charter a troop in their community to submit an application to their local BSA council for consideration." Yeah, right. Excuse me, but what a load of horseapples. Wiccan and other Pagan groups are regularly turned down as chartering orgs. That's why the bogus "Rule of 25" is so effective. "You could always contact this Assistant Scoutmaster and ask her about it:" I notice it doesn't say where Rev. Griffith's troop is chartered to. I'd be very surprised if it was to a Pagan group. I also noticed that to get all her impressive credentials, she went through a Catholic Archdiocese. Very interesting, that. Also note, the Correlian church where she is studying are the ones who started Spiral Scouts, because of the runaround the BSA gave the CoG. "I hear there's a Norse pagan troop in Utah, of all palces." Well, if an Asatru group in Utah managed to get a charter, more power to them, but they are very much the exception, not the rule.

" "The other group accepts the membership policies but wants the BSA to abide by the laws governing them as a 'private religious organization'. " What are some of the laws that BSA does not abide by?" I think you would have to ask someone who belonged to the aforementioned group. But I believe their major point of contention is the BSA continuing to both solicite and accept government support that they are not allowed to get as a private organization that discriminates against federally-defined protected groups.

I think there are two distinct camps for "critics" of the BSA. One group that wants the BSA to change their membership policies. The other group accepts the membership policies but wants the BSA to abide by the laws governing them as a "private religious organization". There may, of course, be overlap between the two groups. While I can understand the desire to have the former go off and start other groups instead, for who belong to the latter group, no number of alternative groups is going to change the fact that government support (in any form) of a private, discriminating religious group is still illegal, as determined by the courts of this land. That said, while I understand the desire to have critics go form their own groups, they are still not going to be on a level playing field as long as the BSA receives preferential treatment by public and private organizations because of the "name recognition" factor, not to even begin to mention the whole Congressional charter thing, which has allowed the BSA to try to sue a bunch of budding alternative groups out of existence. So, I guess part of my answer to that question would be, well, if you want critics to create alternative programs instead of trying to bend the BSA to their will, how about if the BSA lets them create their alternative programs without the legal hassles?

During my stint as den leader, I didn't do den dues, but I did have an "activity fee" if we did an activity that had a significant cost attached to it. For example, when we built birdhouses as Wolves, or toolboxes as Bears, or even making a nifty "family photo album" as Tigers. The rest of the time, I either brought stuff from home that I had anyway (paper, coloring stuff, etc.), or rotated between parents as to who was responsible for bringing what supplies for each meeting. My son's current den leader has everyone put up some money up front at the begining of the year (I think we started at $10), and when that money got used up buying supplies, he would ask for more. If there was money left over at the end of the year, he would do a special treat for the boys. It was easier to do it that way than to keep track of who paid each week and who didn't (because you know there will invariably be that boy who forgot his dues, or that parent who doesn't have the money on them that week).

SctDad, We usually do most of the chores at a campout on a volunteer basis. "Boys! We need some water put into these fire buckets before we can get our fire going. Who'd like to go over to the pump (about 50 yards away) and fill them up for us? Remember, you need to take a buddy...." There are usually at least 3 or 4 hands in the air pretty quick. I will admit that I usually oversee the cooking duties myself (I'm the Cubmaster, Baloo trained, and I love camp cooking), but try to involve the boys to help with as much of the prep as possible. "Ok, who's got their whittling chip? Great, you guys get to help me chop these carrots for the foil packs. (with close parental supervision)" "Ok, who wants to mix up the batter for the cornbread to go on top of the chili in the dutch oven?" Boys are also responsible for washing their own dishes (and usually their parents', too), and will often volunteer to do whatever "common dishes" were used in the prep. (Although no one cleans my Dutch oven but me....) All the boys also help collect firewood, and do checking for trash at the end. We also try all the dens to bring at least one skit or song to the campfire program. On the other hand, each family is responsible for setting up their own tent and person equipment, but we all tend to help each other out if someone is struggling. I guess if I weren't so gungho about cooking, I would probably ask for parent volunteers to take responsibility for one meal each, to come up with plan, let us know what they need, and oversee it's execution. We do have a dedicated "Outdoor Activities Coordinator" who buys all the supplies for our outings. Another alternative would be to have those responsible for the meal procure the needed supplies (although I suggest giving them a budget and a head-count, of course) and get reimbursed by the pack. If you are having trouble with the volunteer method, I would advise simply doing a duty roster, and assigning duties to each den according to ability (i.e., Tigers wouldn't be chopping vegetables, but could certainly help look for tinder to start the fire). Some duties are just going to have to fall on the parents, but really try to get the boys doing as much as is safe and they are able. I'm teaching part of the Baloo training for our Council tomorrow, in fact, after getting rangled in by a buddy of mine (who is the district training chair). If it would be helpful, drop me a PM if you'd like, I'll be happy to answer any questions I can, but I don't always catch things that get posted on the forum.

Cheerful Eagle, Our pack has done trips near and far. AFAIK, the farthest we've gone is about 2 hours by car to the White Mountains of NH (we're about 20 miles NW of Boston as a starting reference). This winter, we did a cabin camping trip to a Boy Scout camp that was only two towns away, which ended up being a good choice as we had a fairly significant snowstorm the night before. I think 2 hours is probably a good cut-off. Farther than that, and I think families are going to balk, and cub scout age kids are going to get seriously antsy. The only factor I can think of that would alter that is wintery driving conditions.

"You know, I scanned this thread, very interesting -- flaming marshmallow in the face, scarey thought -- but I missed any reference to the core princple of CUB scout camping. Cub Scouts go camping with their FAMLIES." Cheerful Eagle, perhaps it was not more explicitly called out because, this being the Cub Scout subforum, and most of us reading it being Cub Scout leaders, we took that as read. I did mention that, like all the cooking our Cubs do, we "let the boys roast marshmallows, with adult/parental supervision, and the ok of their parents." Also, what if the marshmallow roasting is going on *not* at a camping overnight, but at a den meeting, or a pack meeting? Despite the fact that we'd like them to, not all parents can/do attend every den meeting or every pack meeting (Tigers excepted, of course). Hopefully, though, there is still enough adult supervision to keep the boys safe around the fire; if not, then we wouldn't have an activity involving a fire.(This message has been edited by Dankroh)

Karen, I think the question was perfectly legitimate. I think the message coming from national on this issue is somewhat garbled (especially given that outdoor cooking is a rank achievement for Cubs), although BobWhite's explanation of the "guidelines" chart is helpful. I know that there are even Boy Scout troops who have concerns over marshmallows; my older son's former troop (he changed troops earlier this year) actually had a troop rule that marshmallow roasting was not allowed at troop events, because they had an incident in the past with a flaming marshmallow being accidently flung in the face of a nearby scout, causing significant injury. Many people have similar concerns about flaming marshmallows around rather flammable tents. Now, while I personally think that is a bit of an overkill to outlaw them entirely (but indicative of some of the problems with this troop), in the pack I am Cubmaster for, we do have a rule that if the marshmallow catches fire, it stays in the fire. And so far, we've never had any problems with our Cubs cooking. I'm sorry that you experienced so quickly a less than kind post. I can't comment on the actual content, because I am fairly quick to use the "ignore user" button when I see multiple comments from a poster that I find distasteful. All I can recommend is that you do the same.

Ok, the diagram says Tigers, Wolves and Bears can't cook outdoors, but Webelos can. Actually, I was hoping to see a more detailed reference on what "outdoor cooking" means, exactly. Does that mean an open fire or a stove, or either? If the "cooking" involves putting a baggie of eggs into a pot of boiling water on a propane stove, is that still prohibited? Does "cooking" also mean that they can't help in the preparation (i.e. set up their own foil packs, if they are then put on the fire by an adult)? Also, I think they could be a little more specific than "outdoor". So is it ok for cubs to cook over an open fire if it is in a fireplace inside a cabin or someone's house? It's not "outdoors", right? In any case, we have let the boys roast marshmallows, with adult/parental supervision, and the ok of their parents.

Cubs aren't allowed to cook outside? Reference please.

In our pack, it has been tradition that the Webelos pick a den name and emblem when they "graduate" to their second year of Webelos in June. This is when we give the boys in each den the handbook, neckerchief and slide of the new rank they are graduating into. Since the Webelos don't get a new book, slide, or neckerchief for their second year, their den emblem patch has become what the pack gives them. We actually let them have free reign, and have had resourceful parents create interesting patches using blanks and iron-on transfers, or even one mother who had an embroidery machine. Last year, it was the "Flying Pigs" Den. That was a cool looking patch.

PalmettoScouter, welcome! As another parent of a scout on the Autism spectrum, I want to encourage you not to give up. My son has Asperger's, as well as some other neurological and physical issues, and he has really prospered in scouting. He started as a Wolf, and just reached First Class as a Boy Scout. It took him three years in Boy Scouts to reach First Class (whereas most of his peers did it in one year), but that just makes me more proud of his accomplishments. Scouting has helped him do things I didn't think he would ever do. Learning to swim (a requirement for First Class) was one of the big ones. He's also learned a lot of independence. Campouts have been a struggle for him as well, and I make sure that I go along on all campouts to be there in case there are issues, but at the same time, I have learned to *only* be the safety net, and to let him do for himself, even if it means he won't always be successful the first time. My best advice to you is to educate, educate, educate. Help the other leaders understand your son's unique perspective, and show them ways to help him cope with issues that may come up. We actually ended up switching troops a few months back because the leadership at the old troop wasn't very compatible with his needs. He has really thrived in his new troop. I'm not sure if your son is a Cub Scout or a Boy Scout, since you said "cubscouts" but then talk about a troop and campouts. Campouts are certainly not a requirement for Cub Scouts (although they can be lots of fun, and are great experience for the boys). If he is a Cub, be prepared that you may need to look carefully for the right troop when he is ready to cross over to Boy Scouts. If he is in Boy Scouts, I'll try to give you some additional advice on how to make campouts more comfortable for him, if you like.

Here's a question regarding Totin' Chip vs. Whittling Chip: (BTW, here's a good site on Totin' Chip as well: http://www.usscouts.org/usscouts/advance/boyscout/totinchip.asp) This actually came up last weekend at my older son's troop campout. If a Boy Scout earned his Whittling Chip as a Cub, but has not yet earned his Totin' Chip as a Boy Scout (because he just crossed over, not because he had it and lost it), would you still let him use his pocket knife? Obviously, using an axe or saw on his own (not part of instruction towards the Totin' Chip) would be out, but even though Totin' Chip mentions knives also, should having earned the Whittling Chip still be good enough?

Our pack meets once a month (a Friday night) and has another activity about every other month (sometimes more often). We have some traditional pack meetings that have the same theme every year: Dec is some form of outside entertainment (magician, animal show, planetarium visit, etc.) Feb is Blue & Gold March is Pinewood May is a family cookout June is a campfire graduation For our other meetings, we frequently use the themes suggested by national, even if we rearrange the order of them a bit. One of my Woodbadge ticket items this year has been to increase the level of participation by the boys at pack meetings. We've had every den do *something* at each meeting, be it a song, a skit, a presentation. Having lots of games to burn off energy is a good thing as well. The activities outside the pack meetings might be a family bowling night, a day hike, a local water park, etc. We usually have one "overnighter" during the school year; past trips have been to the Museum of Science, the Battleship Massachusetts, and an indoor rockclimbing facility. We also usually do a winter cabin "freeze-out" camping trip. During the summer, we do at least one event a month; in July, a hike or other outdoor event, and in August, a weekend camping trip.

This year, our pack tried something new. Our town has a country fair in early September, and we arranged to have a recruiting event in conjunction with it at the firehouse next door to the park where the fair was happening. The event was called an "Egg Drop". Basically, kids package up a raw egg anyway they want to, within certain parameters; nothing in the packaging can be sharp or likely to shatter, and the entire package has to be less than something like 20 inches in circumference at it's widest point. The firefighters took the egg packages up 60 feet on the ladder truck, and dropped them. The packages where then inspected to see if the egg inside was unbroken. If their egg survived the drop, the boy (or girl, we allowed siblings to participate) got a small prize. Everyone participating got an "I Did My Best" ribbon. We opened this event up to any child of cub scouting age in the community, and advertised it in the local paper. We had a fairly good turnout, and probably reached a different group than we would with the traditional school recruiting night. We also set up a small table to one side and sold some popcorn, to boot.

"The prayer in question can hardly be considered Christian. It was very open: Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our country. Amen." Well, then can you name any other religion other than Christianity whose adherents would say that prayer? Jews wouldn't. Besides the fact that the prayer is not in Hebrew, and is not one of the prescribed prayers of Judaism, they usually refer to God as "Lord". I have never, ever heard any Jewish prayer use the phrase "Almighty God", even in Hebrew. Muslims wouldn't. Again, it is not one of the prescribed prayers of Islam, and it is not in Arabic. OK, so that leaves out the other two of the big three Abrahamic religions. I also can't think of any of the other eastern-based religion (Hindu, Buddism) that would address "Almighty God". And certainly, no Pagan prayer is going to use that phrasing. So that leaves...hmmm...Christian. I know we have adherents to several faiths other than Christianity on this board. Would any of you agree that this prayer would be consistent with your faith? Edited to add: I will admit that my knowledge of Islam is probably the weakest of my comparative religious background. However, there is also the point that for Muslims, saying a formal prayer like that takes quite a bit of preparation. Are you going to allow time for that preparation in schools?(This message has been edited by DanKroh)

Perception often clouds facts. Bob, I offer you these observations; ignore them, disagree with them, or take them as food for thought, doesn't really matter much to me. 1. I think the *perception* of the last word comes from your posts often sounding like you are presenting yourself as the "final authority". I often get that impression, and I think other people do to. While I would hazard to guess that's not how they are intended, that is the perception. 2. Threads started by you often come off sounding like pedantic lectures, not "discussion starters". Again, this is my perception, but I think it is shared by others. And again, probably not what you intend, but that's how they come off sounding. And when there is a perception of lack of interest in actual discussion, then that "last word" perception is going to go with it. (edited to fixed typo)(This message has been edited by Dankroh)

In February of this year, there were 5 stories that hit the national press of young (under 25) people killed for their sexuality and/or gender expression. The most shocking of these was Lawrence King, a 15-year-old who was shot in the head at school by a 16-year-old classmate because he wore feminine clothing and makeup. And those five are just the ones that got national media attention. That is what Day of Silence is about.