CubsRgr8

The training course has to be designed for the volunteer who never planned on being a scout leader until he was asked. As such, I can see it boring the daylights out of someone who took it five or ten years ago. At the same time, the material does change over time, so offering a recertification course on-line would serve both the veteran scouter and BSA's need to have volunteers who know current program and rules.

Anne, perhaps you're thinking of Bay Jammer, held every summer in beautiful Menomonee MI. Here's a link: http://www.bayjammer.htmlplanet.com/ I have not attended, but it looks like a fun weekend for older scouts and crews.

It's not clear to me why you and your friend were offended. The story published is part of the shared history of western culture - would you be offended by Boys Life publishing tales of the Greek gods? Also, the story is part of a religous heritage common to the overwhelming majority of the members of BSA. If you were in India would you be just as offended by a story from the Hindu religion? It seems to me that many people are too easily offended these days, expecially when there is no intent to provoke. Why not contact Boys Life directly and ask them to publish a series from another religious tradition? I wouldn't be offended, and I'm a pretty conservative Christian.(This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)

I'm a new adult Arrowman, having completed my Ordeal in September. NOAC sounds interesting, but I have a couple of questions. Do councils set up contingent troops like Jamboree or do scouts register as individuals? Are adult members of OA allowed to attend? If so, do they attend the same activities as scouts or are there separate activities? Thanks in advance for your insights.

Yeah Robin! Keep up the good work and not only will you keep the boys you already have, I predict you'll have some new ones wanting to join. Your den and pack are lucky to have you on board.

Venivedi, I've heard the "natural gang" argument before, but am not convinced it would work. I don't see much of the "natural gang" going on in either of my sons' lives (11 & 14). It's more like overlapping circles of friends, with each circle sharing a couple of similar interests (soccer/spanish or math/church/Warhammer). Using the "natural gang" method, how do you setup your NSPs every spring? Just because boys come from the same den or pack doesn't mean they're part of a "natural gang". Do NSPs stay together or recombine after the group reaches 1C? How do you prevent one scout from being excluded? Do patrols live on "forever" or do they fade away when the original group ages out? Orennoah, I really like your comment Members of other patrols should have absolutely no say in who is the patrol leader. I have observed many PLs having a difficult time with their members on campouts (and not just the invisible scouts). I definitely plan on borrowing it for the next adult leaders meeting. Thanks! Venivedi & Eamonn, I agree that there are program issues as well as patrol issues. When I was an MC, I sat on many Star and Life BORs for invisible scouts and almost always asked them what would make the troop meetings & campouts more interesting. To a scout, they seemed unable to answer. So, for now, I figure I'll concentrate on reforming the way we use the patrol method.

At our last troop leaders' meeting the Scoutmaster raised a question. What should we do about invisible scouts? Invisible scouts rarely attend troop meetings or weekend campouts, but pay their annual membership fee, show up faithfully for the troop-run summer camp, and frequently are deathbed eagles. Patrol cohesion is very poor, due mostly to the number of these invisible scouts each patrol gets stuck with, anywhere from 3-5 each. The Scoutmaster concluded by asking all of us adult leaders (I'm an ASM after serving three years as a MC) to put on our thinking caps and come back with some ideas. IMHO, the root of this problem is the poor way this troop implements the patrol method. Yes, we have NSPs, which work great for the new scouts. But it's another story for every other patrol. The PLC decides in February how many older scout patrols we're going to have (lately it's been 7 or 8). Then the entire troop votes for which scouts they want as PLs. The SPL starts with the top vote getter and goes down the list until he has enough PLs to man every patrol. Then, the PLs hold a secret, troop wide draft, each PL picking one scout at a time, with no guarantee that a boy will end up in the same patrol as any of his friends. Ugh! Share with me how your troop handles patrol membership so I can take this information back to the next adult leaders' meeting and at least get an intelligent discussion going.

Welcome on board! I found my three years as a Webelos den leader were great fun and went by way too fast. 1) Get trained ASAP - Fast Start (http://www.scouting.org/cubscouts/faststart/), Youth Protection, New Leader Essentials & Leader Specific this fall. Then take the Outdoor Webelos Leader course in the spring. Getting trained built my confidence up quickly and also provided me with a wealth of resource materials. 2) While there are 20 activity badges to be earned, only 8 are required for the Arrow of Light, the culminating award given Webelos in 5th grade. Working backwards from February or March 2007 (the best time for Webelos to crossover into a troop), put together a plan for the next 16 months out with lots of "just for fun" activities to balance the "required" activities. Take advantage of activity badge workshops, ie Aquanaut earned at the Y, or Artist earned at the local art supply store. And let some of your interests guide which activity badges you choose. There are lots of suggested plans on the internet, or feel free to PM me. 3) Start researching where you're going to take your den for Webelos Resident Camp this coming summer. WRC is (typically) a four day, three night session and will become one of your treasured memories as a den leader. Don't settle for the camp closest or the one your pack has "always" attended. Find the one the stands out from the crowd by offering: a program tailored to Webelos; multiple sessions; and a staff dedicated to the WRC. 4) Communicate, communicate, communicate with the parents. They're just as likely as the scouts to forget the service project LOL! 5) Download a free spreadsheet (http://www.geocities.com/~pack215/cub-tracker.html) to track your scouts' progress or pay for ScoutTrack.com. The Webelos program is a bit more complicated and paper records will drive you batty fast! 6) Discuss with your son right away how at scout activities you're not Mom anymore but Ms. Robin, the WDL. It's important for you to treat him the same as every other boy and for him to respect you as any other adult leader in his life. Also, having Mom as his den leader will be a two-edged sword for your son: he'll go to every scout activity BUT he'll go to every scout activity. Be sure to make time for Mom/son time outside of scouting. 7) Start building relationships this fall with neighboring troops. Much of what your scouts need to do next fall requires interaction with a troop, and knowing a couple of troops makes it easier to accomplish those activities while the weather still is pleasant (especially important here in the soon to be frozen Upper Midwest). 8) Check back in at the Forum to learn, to share, and to vent (yes, there will be times when it's necessary). With my sons now in 9th and 6th grade, I'm growing a bit nostalgic for the "good old days" of Webelos. Have fun and Good Luck! (This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)

So, say you're a scoutmaster, would you say "no" to a boy who wants to (re)join your troop as a deathbed Eagle? The thread I spun this out of is an apparent example of this situation. Are there other circumstances that you would cause you to say "no" - the boy is a "known" trouble maker, or was dismissed from another troop, or has some disability so severe that you just can't cope? Nothing specific going on in my sons' troop, just a question that popped into my head.

Be very careful about that "six months" issue. Here's what the requirement is: Be active in your troop and patrol for at least 6 months as a Life Scout. It does NOT say these 6 months must be the 6 immediately previous to turning 18 or attaining Eagle rank. That aside, a boy can rejoin a troop at any time, but I recommend a sit down meeting with each boy and a parent (unless auntie has custody) to review the rest of the Eagle requirements and determine if it is possible or not. If not possible, they will at least know why. Your post raises another, related, interesting quesion which I will spin off into another thread.

A volunter would-be SM who doesn't enthusiastically WANT to get trained is a BAD choice. Find someone else and use this volunteer for a different role (committee member?). As far as you wearing two hats - well, what scouter hasn't already done that a few times? If you're really JUST the pack committee chair - and not also a den leader or CM or advancement coordinator or popcorn sale coordinator or refreshment parent or any combination of the above - then you could also be the SM. Make a specific time commitment to the position (two or three years) and go for it!

Old Grey Eagle asks the question: I didnt think Boy Scouts, and by that I mean OA, did face painting anymore, Arrowmen, what say ye? I just completed my ordeal this past weekend. I would have cringed if I observed what Akaluga reports. I am happy to say my experience was very different. There was no use of face-painting, no eagle feathers, no war bonnets, no loin-cloths over (or not) boxer shorts. I found the symbolism in the ceremonies to be both respectful of its cultural origins and appropriate to the purpose at hand.

Another possibility is to form a non-profit corporation ie "XYZ School Friends of Scouting", which works okay for the units at my neighborhood public school. This non-profit corporations is the CO for both a pack and a troop. They are allowed access to school facilities, just like any other group (BTW, isn't there a law to the affect?), although the leaders have to store equipment at their homes. True, it's not the best setup, but since leaders tend to stay in place for 5-6 years at a time, the turnover isn't a big problem. I wonder if Merlyn has a problem with this arrangement.

Absolutely correct! Therefore, it is possible for a motivated Webelos 2 to earn his AOL as early as December of his 5th grade year, but not sooner, due to the requirement to be active in the den for at least 6 months since completing 4th grade. And once earned, I say the scout should wear it proudly!

How about TWO sites - one east and one west? It might be easier to find two sites to accomodate 20,000 instead of one site for 40,000 scouts and scouters. The Cape Cod site sound great. Then that leaves one out west. Hmmm. Not to hot, not too remote, not too high. Beautiful terrain a plus. Sounds like 1969 to me - Farragut State Park, Idaho. From their website: Scouting at Farragut Because of its size and variety of available activities, Farragut has hosted many large gatherings. These included the National Girl Scout Roundup in 1965, the World Boy Scout Jamboree in 1967 and the National Boy Scout Jamborees of 1969 and 1973. The park has also hosted tens of thousands of Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts for regional outings and campouts over the years. (http://www.idahoparks.org/parks/farragut.html) What do you all think?

I'd like to respond to TJ's orginal post. You seem to be disputing the notion that this country was founded upon Judeo-Christian values. Come on, are you serious? If not Judeo-Christian values, then what values? Buddist? Animist? Islam? Aztec? I think not. In 1776, Judeo-Christian values permeated Western culture to a much greater extent than they do today. Just which Judeo-Christain values* did the founding fathers reject? Have you read the Declaration of Independance lately? We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. In 1776, this statement was impossible outside of a culture that did not possess the Judeo-Christian values about the worth and responsibility of the individual. Even today, the culture of this country is profoundly affected and shaped by Judeo-Christian values, as is the culture of every other country founded by European immigrants. To deny this is to deny our European cultural heritage. *The divinity of Jesus Christ is a Christian religious belief, not a Judeo-Christian value.

And that includes getting a tour permit (signed by a committee member AND the council) each and every time this leader has any cub scout (other than his son) in his vehicle! Of course, the same rule applies to all drivers (registered leaders or volunteer parents), not just this guy.

But oh! the colors! the vibrant, pretty colors of bug juice! So pretty! So irresistable! Ahhh!

Your points sound pretty good to me. Society has to balance the individual's rights against its need for the greatest general good. But how many parents do you know who want to retain responsibility for their children through age 21? Not too many, I'll bet. Maybe what we need to look at is a graduated legal age, similar to the graduated driver's liscence we now have here in Wisconsin. Statistics seem to be proving out that this is a good thing (fewer accidents and fewer injuries & deaths amoung teenage drivers). And this "emancipation" thing in SC - you've got to be kidding!

You guys are making me think too hard! Ok, here goes. Packsaddle, Dr. Giedd's research was news to me when NPR covered it earlier this month, so I assumed (uh oh!) that it would be news to other members of this forum. I still think it's newsworthy. Prairie Scouter, we'll have to agree to disagree. I strongly believe it is the parents' right and responsibility to constantly be telling their adolescent children what to think/do, especially about profound issues. The "Parents, the anti-drug" PSA campaign on television is an example of my belief being implemented by society as a whole. Well, I hold that beliefs about God and sexuality are just as important as those about illegal drug use. NJ, you responded: So then I assume in the situation of the atheist parents and the atheist Scout, you disagree with the BSA policy of removing the Scout. How could it be fair to do so when his opinion is "merely a reflection of his parents' position" and he had no role whatsoever in forming that opinion. I never said he had no role in forming his opinion, just that a 14YOB is not fully developed physically, at least if I'm reading this research correctly. So I conclude that a 14YOB is not competent to make such profound life decisions. After all, we're not talking about choosing Doritos over Fritos. That said, I would not support his removal from Scouting UNLESS he began to proclaim his opinion from the mountaintops. Mindless robots? When did you meet my 14YOB?!?! I think acco40 was 110% right on with his comments! LOL! Seriously, NJ, you're missing my point, and that must be because I didn't do a very good job of laying it out. I do not draw the conclusion that the young person who is "caught" early enough by their parents has no role in what they themselves believe. Rather, the conclusion I draw is that it is imperative for parents to do their utmost to influence their children's beliefs, starting as infants and continuing through their entire stint as adolescents because research shows their brains are still developing and are not yet hard-wired. Too many parents seem willing to stop trying when their kids turn into adolescents, yet this research says they still can have a huge influence on how their kids turn out. (This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)

Here's a few ideas to toss around. Personally contact/meet/persuade (no arm-twisting now, that's not scout like!) each Pack's Cubmaster. That person's opinion and enthusiasm usually carries a lot of weight with the rest of the Pack leadership. With 300 cubs in your district, I'm guessing that's only about a dozen people/meetings. I wouldn't rely on roundtable, it's too big (or too small) and not personal enough. If you can plan some activities that (brief pause while I assemble and put on full body armour) partially fullfill some reqruirements at each level, the program becomes more appealing to the den leaders. I know, I know, summer camp is supposed to be about fun, not advancement. BUT, speaking as a former Bear and Webelos den leader, I always wanted to know up front if any requirements could be fullfilled by attending camp. Just made my job a little easier. Of course, if the scout sat like a lump on a log, I didn't give him credit for the requirement. Have a contest for cubs to design the camp patch. Make it the kind that comes with a loop for hanging on the right hand pocket button. Have all the staff wearing theirs the whole time and make a big deal out of presenting the camp patches (have the leaders put them on the scouts' uniforms right then and there!) at the closing ceremony. The patch becomes a visible form of advertising that is less likely to get tossed in a drawer and forgotten. Hmm, this sounds like fun, maybe I should start up one of these in my district! (This message has been edited by CubsRgr8)

Prairie Scouter- Perhaps I'm just an old-fashioned curmudgeon, but I believe it is the parents' right and responsibility to explain to their children WHAT they believe and WHY they believe it, in the very certain hope of influencing their character. You seem to be saying something else. Are you saying that you don't care what conclusions your children reach about God or sexual behavior? or politics? or environmental stewardship? or the war in Iraq? or honesty? To quote John Stossel "gimme a break!" Of course you care! The point I'm making by starting this post is that current scientific research is saying the adolescent brain is being shaped and formed by its environment until it hits 20+ years old. It is physically unable to have matured by age 12 or 14 or 16 to the point that it "knows" where it stands on most personal life issues, especially profound issues such as God and sexual behavior. The adolescent brain is constantly being influenced most profoundly by the people around it, but also (and Dr. Giedd agrees) by the culture around it. That, therefore, becomes the justification for Scouting's discriminating values when it comes to certain beliefs and behaviors. They are old-fashioned, traditional, and certainly not politically correct. But they are timeless values which tens of millions of parents (including myself) want instilled into their children.

NJ- 1) I agree that one accepts the existence of God by belief, or faith, not by proof. Perhaps I should have reworded the statement slightly. 2) I posit that your hypothetical scout is incapable of making this decision, due to his physically immature brain. For him to insist that there is no God is merely a reflection of his parents' position. 3) Scouting rewards scouts to reinforce behaviors that their parents want reinforced - heroism, duty towards God & country, honesty, etc. Yes, the beliefs and behaviors were taught to them by their parents, what's wrong with that? Where/When/Who taught you the beliefs/behaviors you held when you were 14? 4) I'm no scientist, just a parent and scouter who wants BSA to retain its requirement for a belief in God.

From a notoriously conservative website, check this out! http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/teenbrain/interviews/giedd.html To summarize, Dr. Jay Giedd is a neuroscientist at the National Institute of Mental Health. Recently, he spearheaded research showing for the first time that there is a wave of growth and change in the adolescent brain. His recent research shows that the adolescent brain continues to develop throughout adolescence. The frontal lobe of the brain, the "part of the brain that allows us to conduct philosophy and to think about thinking and to think about our place in the universe," is not fully developed until around age 20. As it physically matures, it is discarding unused connections and codifying others. Does this research have anything important to say to us about how an adolescent develops his life decisions about the concept of morality? The concept of what is acceptable behaviour in the arena of human sexuality? The concept of God? Absolutely! In light of this research, is a 14 year old brain is physically developed enough to decide on the existence of God or the nature of what is acceptable sexual behavior? Dr. Giedd's research indicates to me that it clearly is not. Which is why it is so important for parents to constantly reinforce their values in their children during their teenage years. What do you think?

Semper, why would the SM approve a service project where the scout cannot wear his uniform? Either field or activity? It seems to me that part of the purpose of these service projects is to put a public face on scouts and scouting.