CubScouterFather

Ironically, war seldom occurs without religion. History is filled with accounts of gentle people being attacked and oppressed by the self-righteous. This was something Jesus combated over and over in the Gospels and pathetically it not only continues to this day but also often prevails in His name. I guess we cant have it both ways. Science must always be grounded in reason - although imagination and conjecture are helpful in the extension of its borders. And, religion is forever dependent on faith with reason acting as a stabilizing influence. There have always been, and always will be, misleading interpretations of the phenomena of both the natural and spiritual worlds. Neither will ever prove the other they cant. In that realm, I offered my personal experience as an example of why I find the BSAs policy confusing and how I could imagine how confusing it could be to a young Scout coming of age and realizing he is Gay. I appreciate individual beliefs but in my own experience of walking among the straight, I realized just how misinformed people can be and how quickly they accept it as truth. Its hard to say that research is leaning toward homosexuality as a learned behavior. Most Gays have straight parents and most children of Gay parents are straight. What about twins? Supposedly twins would be raised side-by-side why wouldnt they both be Gay or Straight if it was taught or nurtured? What is so alluring about homosexuality that people would decide to be Gay? Is it the comfort of civil privilege oh, wait, they strip that away when you Come Out. Even straight supporters of Gay rights dont become Gay. If the argument is God says its wrong why have we dismissed the other things God said that are written along side His condemnation? Keep it in context. It was a health code written to protect a primitive nomadic people from extinction? As previously mentioned on the list we are closer to overpopulation than extinction. When we discuss what is natural homosexuality is as natural as it gets for me. Ive never experienced a heterosexual desire or fantasy. My body, mind and soul work naturally with my partner. When I went against my nature, my body grew weak, my mind suffered a nervous breakdown and my soul longed for honesty. This is what is natural for me. I am not promoting it to you. I pray my kids will be happy and healthy and most of all, I hope they enjoy the benefits of marriage and the wealth of raising children but, if they are Gay I want them to know that I will celebrate their life all the same. Misinformation You owe it to yourself to know what you are reading. If you have access to the web, research the background studies referenced in the research find out whats missing. What is the margin of error? How did they collect the participants? Ask the questions that come to mind. Like the findings they used to create a fear that homosexuals were more likely to be pedophiles, the part they leave out is that all the participants were convicted pedophiles. The research is about pedophiles not homosexuals. Know the research if you are going to use it. What about the benefits? There seems to be a hybrid of thought in Gay men that bridges male and female. Think of the vast amount of creative contribution Gay people have made in all areas of life but especially in the arts. Would the world really be a more beautiful place if there were no more homosexuals? I live in a relatively small rural population with no Gay culture and yet, we have a significant number of same-sex couples that have been together longer than most marriages. It is also quite obvious that they are civic, social and economic contributors giving freely of their time, ideas and money. My whole point of saying anything was to point out that you must reconsider the use of broad-based discrimination especially with existing Scouts. These are good men who happen to be Gay. Phil

Rooster, Honestly, I never set out to do anything other than share my frustration of wanting to have my son participate in Scouting and finding out that the BSA actively prohibits my involvement. When I first pulled the flyer out of my sons backpack, a red flag went up to check current BSA policy so I didnt set myself up for confrontation by quickly volunteering my time which is such a weird oxymoron. From reading the BSAs policies, it didnt sound like a problem but, when I started reading the current buzz from BSAs members online, I realized that was not the case. I also noticed that some members were still basing their fear of homosexuals on incomplete and consequently misleading information. I can leave someone to their own beliefs but when that belief turns into God-granted permission to slander, oppress or harm anyone thats where they cross the line. This is a Forum, a forum under the subtitles of Issues & Politics and Scoutings Real Gay Policy. I came here for insight. I wasnt getting the whole story from the BSA (which is very disappointing) so yes, I read the whole thread. I am very trusting but I am also very curious to know both sides of any issue especially if I dont agree. I thought this would be the right place to vent my opinion instead of venting to my sons den leader, if they find one. Victim is it my illusion, or am I forbidden to enlist my services in the BSA based solely on the fact that Im Gay? If you or your child were excluded for no other reason other than something neither of you could change wouldnt you fight to stop such senseless discrimination? I am well aware of Biblical condemnation of homosexuality I accept full responsibility for my decision to stop lying. I am okay with that. I know that I have never had a hetero thought in my life so I can only presume that God made me this way. Ive only been this way so I have no idea what it would be like to be hetero. I am very happy with being me I was not happy pretending to be heterosexual, nor was my wife. I grew up in a very hetero family and found it very frustrating when I didnt relate and didnt dare say a word for fear of loosing their love. I suffered the same repulsion toward heterosexual intimacy as you have expressed toward homosexual intimacy. I had to LEARN the mechanics of sex with a woman there was nothing natural about it! I had to cover up the repulsion to protect my wifes heart. She deserved to be held passionately to be wanted I couldnt fake that. After my divorce, I met my partner and my soul sang! I could just be me - and, we've never had problems with biology not working. The thought of him makes my heart smile and when I am with him, God's love and blessing is evident all around us. God has shown me true love - and the ancient text you quote falls impotently mute in His presence. It's no longer what I've read or what I've been told - it's now what I've witnessed and what I know in my heart to be true. How can you fault me for that?

I am beginning to understand why so many of you chose to contact me privately I also understand your warnings of being attacked on this list but I know better than to judge a whole organization by the actions of a few. I was taught that prejudice and discrimination were bad at a very early age. You cant judge a book by its cover was something my parents insisted upon. My comments about research had to do with challenging discrimination and prejudice caused by misinformation. The National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality works to draw in the weak and abused and to cure them. It does this with half-truths and misrepresentations in hopes of saving these fallen souls from eternal damnation and, makes a profit in the process. Every leading national authority on mental health has pointed out the manipulative flaws in the research used by the NARTH and others to promote their Reparative Therapy programs. I say manipulative because these are simple omissions that any accredited scientist would have NEVER left out, unless the information discredited their objective. The following national mental health authorities further warn of the severe risks associated with their therapy to cure homosexuality. (To name a few) The American Psychiatric Association http://www.psych.org The American Psychological Association http://www.apa.org The American Academy of Family Physicians http://www.aafp.org The American Medical Association http://www.ama-assn.org The Surgeon General of the USA http://www.surgeongeneral.gov The bottom line is you believe Homosexuality is wrong I respect your opinion but, I also challenge your belief by the fact that religions have always evolved their positions on what was right and wrong in light of new knowledge. The above mental health organizations have also taken strong stances on the fact that thorough research has determined that sexual orientation is not chosen and homosexuals are not prone to any mental dysfunction any more than heterosexuals.

Rooster, I'm glad you posted this little ditty. It's a prime example of dishonor and disgrace. It is a manipulitive game to take the obvious and twist it to look officially revealing. Anyone reading this report owes it to themselves to know what they are looking at. Find out how they took their sampling and what were their objectives. You may subscribe to thought that the American Psychatric Association and/or the American Medical Association and others have conspired to clear homosexuality but in fact, the research accepted by these organizations has to meet thorough criteria to insure their objective collection of data. A very simple problem with the research you quoted is the fact that these statistics were collected from police reports for convicted child molesters. Within that group, a gross majority of the crimes are committed against boys. Boys are often unattended and become easy prey. Peds preying on boys ARE NOT avowed homosexuals - they are avowed pediphiles. It has nothing to do with how many homosexuals are pediphilic. How many Gay men have had sex before they were 18 is how that question should read. How many straight kids have had sex before they were 18? Hmmmm I am Catholic. Before first grade was over I knew that homosexuals were going to hell and the only way to be saved was to join the Priesthood. While many Gays are very spiritual, hiding is not the reason to become a priest. Is it any wonder they have a problem with pedophilia? Pedophilia is most often caused by trauma or repression of sexual feelings before maturity - the seminary used to enlist highschoolers. Nothing promotes sexual disfunction more than ignoring the human need for intimacy. This information serves no good to anyone other than the anti-gay bandwagon. If you really were serving justice you would engage your debate with valid information and resourses. Again, I urge all of you to view official statistics - and question them. I also urge you to look up the report that Rooster quoted from and look to see what the man behind the curtain is up to. Regretably, Phil

Just a few clarifications: 1.) I did register my eldest son for Cub Scouts in hope that the commitment would prompt a leader to step forward. The frustrations I vented were my feelings and not accusations just frustration. Any smack of official activism on my part comes from being upset in the presence of injustice and maintaining my commitment to contribute intelligently to a resolution instead of making pot shots. Are my actions of defending myself the same as attending a rally? 2.) cjmiam said: If people are in Scouts and gay there is no need to be sad, just leave. No one is stopping them. Scouts are taught to stand up for justice how can you mock anyones effort to bring injustice to light even if you dont share the same opinion? And, I dont think its about feeling trapped. Its about being ousted for being upfront and honest by the very institution that instilled such a value. In the case of James Dale http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-699.ZO.html Dale was not accused of lewd, crass or inappropriate conduct. He was kicked out of Scouting after he was interviewed for attending a seminar on addressing the psychological and health needs of lesbian and gay teenagers, while AWAY at college. He was never found abusing his position of leadership within the BSA to promote homosexuality. The Judges final opinion reflects his discontent with the BSAs actions and was forced to rule against Dale based solely upon the BSAs First Amendment rights. Obviously, the Judge protected the BSA's right but didn't think they were right. 3.) Avowed: Simply put, anyone aware of his or her own attraction to the same sex is considered to be an avowed homosexual. There is no criterion of conduct. Anyone pretending to be straight would be violating the Scouts oath. Just as I believe that its nobodys business to know my sexual orientation, its far more maddening to keep a secret than to be honest and not worry about it being an issue. I know that most people feel that way. A non-issue is a non-issuea witch-hunt will always make it an issue. 4.) Pedophilia: Since Anita Bryant panicked the nation 30 years ago, every attempt to support her claims of abuse backfired. Pedophilia has NO correlation to homosexuality and "avowed homosexuals" are less likely to prey upon children than "unavowed" or someone presumed as "straight". 5.) Prayer: To suggest that I dont pray enough is kind of strange. My personal experience leads me to believe that nobody could pray more than me but, this is not a contest. Prayer is very personal and very important in my life. Even though I am keeping it short because of a work load, I wanted to thank those of you who have extended the respect of Scouting in spite of our differences. Thanks again, Phil

Wow - nope didn't mean to suggest anything similar between BSA and KKK - I am suggesting that the BSA is excluding good people, not on action but because of a interpretation of the Bible - I'm sorry for any insult I may have implied. I have obviously devoted too much time and have gotten wrapped up in my feelings of rejection this week. It was a bit of a sharp stick to the eye. Nothing will compare to the pain caused by our need to divorce. Nothing. So, I would do just about anything to avoid even more pain for my kids - which is why I'm not going to make a fuss with the Scouts. I did appreciate the ability to address my frustration on this list and please know that I would never lump or judge any of you together in any other way except for your sincere devotion to Scouting. I thank you for the outlet. I am not an activist but, until I met Judy Shepard, I never really said much. Her wish is that someday they will show the last 3/4ths of the Pride Parade that is where the everyday people march, who happen to be Gay. She suggested that if the people in your community do not know that hard working, community involved, church going, devoted fathers, can also be Gay, they will only think of Gay people as the extremists marching in the front of the Pride Parades. That would be a shame. This is Mrs. Shepards link: http://www.matthewshepard.org/ As far as my wife, she didn't realize what I was going through. She is a most awesome woman who has remained by my side as my best friend - something we should have perhaps never compromised with marriage except that we share two amazing kids. We decided it would be healthier for all of us and it has. She has not found a new partner but as is common with "straight spouses", when they do, they find there is nothing to compare to being with someone who loves you to someone who "is in-love" with them. I was lucky to have an incredible person come into my life and for my first time, I am "in-love" - it is totally different. P.S. I never cheated nor would I have. Peace, Phil

In response to "test of time". I am positive that discrimination has kept most Gay Scouts from "Coming Out", throughout the decades. Surprisingly, most of the Gay men I know have Scouting experience. Much of this has to do with a genuine desire to overcompensate for being helplessly bound to a condition deemed "wrong". With the growing acceptance of being Honest, it is completely against a Scout's Honor to stay in the closet. Thats why it has become an issue now. There have always been Gay youth in Scouting they only recently started kicking them out. As for starting a new organization - you would still be kicking out individuals who have grown up within your organization. That's why it doesn't make sense. They can have moral fibers and exceed every standard ever set by the BSA and loose it all when they realize they are Gay. Try as they may, the BSA will never succeed in creating a "straight" kid - either they are or they are not. Phil(This message has been edited by CubScouterFather)

Again, thanks for sharing from your hearts. I do agree with you, almost whole-heartedly - and, it's not my intention to suggest anyone, especially the Scouts, "lower" their standards. I share my experience as food for thought. Most of you are in the position to decide that being Gay is something you could never imagine, that, based upon what you feel and what you've been told, you can easily believe that it is wrong - but, is it? Did Scouting "lower" its standards by allowing women? Did Scouting "lower" its standards to allow those of color? No. Our Country HAD to adopted Affirmative Action because it was clear that ethnically challenged Americans were acting as if they were superior by birth. And, while there have been cases of reverse discrimination, overall it worked. Just like race, gender or ethnic background, you can't change your sexual orientation. If you believe so, you need to update your information: http://www.psych.org/pract_of_psych/copptherapyaddendum83100.cfm Again I ask you: is it right? While you should have a right - is it right? Is it right to pervert Biblical intent to fit your own bias against homosexuality (if you do, you need to practice ALL of the laws spelled out in Leviticus.) Why dont we practice the other laws? Who are you fooling by thinking that you are "keeping high standards" by kicking out exemplary Scouts who, by birth, can only find true love within their own gender? Is that going to save the afflicted Scout? Or, prevent other Gay youth from giving in to their abominable nature shame on you. If thats a Christian thing to do, we are implying that Jesus would do the same. I would re-evaluate that accusation if I were you. Shouldn't membership be based upon knowledge and the honor, accomplishment and integrity of the individual. Phil(This message has been edited by CubScouterFather)

I agree. I would never endanger the local organization to prove a point - I am also not going to subject my kids to the ridicule of being a scapegoat. It's too bad. Also, what you are saying about the decline of enrollment is much more true than I thought. As this buzz went around the office, I soon found out that all but two families had decided to divert their child's enrollment in Scouting because of the anti-gay policy - and, I'm the only Gay one - lol. Now I almost feel stupid getting my kids involved. Someday. Yes, like allowing Women into leadership, they will see the light that training young men is not all about gender imbreeding - the more well rounded, the better. And, as I think about it, I'm not looking to Scouting as a babysitter - I'm actually active in my kids upbringing and socialization. I guess I was just very fond of my Scouting memories and the sentimental me thought it would be good for my kids but I've taken my Scouting experience and applied it to my parenting. I guess they are luckier than most. Take care, Phil

Sorry - It's Phil again. Please, no need to appologize for fellow listers. I am quite used to strong opinions - I respect their opinions. But, thanks for caring enough to say something. I re-read my post and didn't mean to be so ranty, that's not my intention. Scouting was always so fun and I was so excited for Max and now this really puts an unreasonable amount of frustration into it. I have some hard decisions. Is my child's involvement in the Scouts a vote for discrimination? Am I setting my son up for disappointment by involving him in an organization that constantly calls upon the involvement of Fathers - except his? My sons always involve my partner like their parent but BSA has a record of excluding the non-biological parent? Children have a 10% chance of being Gay - what are my responsibilities to protect my child from soaring to the heights of Scouting and then having the rug pulled from under him? Phil

Hey Scouters, Thank you for your replies. I wanted to report back after last night's meeting. Coincidence? They have no one to and none of the parents were willing/able to lead these eager kids so, they asked me - what could I do? I would have been honored and hid the pain as I declined and said I was too busy (They know Im Gay but, obviously didnt know the policy) My Son was so excited at the prospect of his Dad being his den leader that he nearly wet his pants and I finally had to grab him by the shoulders and set him in his seat firmly and annunciate the word NO! It broke my heart. I am unfit as a mentor because I choose integrity and honesty over hiding the truth? This is the irony of the BSAs policy. Here are some personal experiences to help understand the irony: 1.) Admittance to Self: My first heartfelt crush happened the summer before 1st grade. I knew early and learned to hide those feelings especially when I learned that I was going to hell for it before that first year of Catholic School was over. To avoid hell, I scrambled to clear my head of my evil thoughts how often do guys think about sex? - I would estimate that I had a panic attack almost every other minute for 28 years. I finally lost the battle and actually went mad. It was then that I realized I had to tell someone else. I didnt think I would live but my recovery made me realize how lucky I was to be alive. 2.) Admittance to Others: Who NEEDS to be told before anyone else? Ironically, I lost friends, not because I was Gay but because they were embarrassed they didnt know and therefore, I deceived them. Its a double-edged sword that cuts either way. Commonly, the mix of terror and elation creates a kind of "Coming Out bomb" and in the wake, you quickly find out who your true friends really are. The pain of being closeted is so grave that it is no wonder a grossly disproportionate number of Gay Youth take their own lives before they Come Out. Where is the choice in it? Many are disowned by families, kicked out of churches, forbidden to marry, passed up for promotion and victims of hate crimes why would you choose to be Gay? Ive never met anyone on the fence about Boy Scouts either theyre in it and LOVE IT or they are not. Imagine the impact on a Scout, to whom integrity is everything, being ousted for his honesty by the very organization that taught him about it. Its confusing. Im not hiding but if I dont announce it I am sneaky if I say something, I am rubbing it in everyones face. I make sure other parents know so its not a surprise when they speak of my partner. And, they do because hes always at the ready to rescue a scraped knee, tie a shoe, or play a game. And, because there is no such thing as girls work, I couldnt think of a better role model than a man who is not only capable of taking care of himself, but also takes care in those around him. Isnt that what Scouting is about? Its so important to update your knowledge and fight the discrimination by geting rid of the old lore RECRUITING: There was a fearful theory promoted by Anita Bryant that Gays reproduced by recruiting youth they never found this to be true. (You couldn't get an average 17y/o guy to pick up a $100 bill if a girl in a bikini walked by much less convince him to risk loosing friends and family for a great decorating sense) MOLESTING: Because boys are often easier prey for pedophiles (more often unattended), it was once assumed they were "homosexual" - they are NOT, they are pedophiles. Of all groups, Gays who label themselves as Out, are least likely to sexually molest a child. Pedophilia is a documented illness caused by trauma and/or repression (denial). PARENTING: Statistically, children of Gay Parents are not any more likely to be Gay (in spite of their exposure to Opera and crafting from Martha Stewart Living - lol). However, they are more likely to believe in the equality of all men and women. WORDS: Please read all of Leviticus. Why do we single out homosexuality when the 17 chapters before it forbid things like tattoos, haircuts, rare meat, seafood, pork or blended fabrics? Jesus is mute. Paul condemns the Romans for homosexual acts for pagan worship and dominating captives of war. The law dictated the woman be stoned Jesus asked the crowd to refrain from judgment. Resources: http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html http://www.bible.org/cgi-bin/netbible.pl?book=lev&chapter=11 http://www.bible.org/cgi-bin/netbible.pl?book=lev&chapter=15 Respectfully, Phil

What a complicated thread. I am Gay. Never knew what Gay was but struggled with the attraction/unattraction. Married my best friend (after 10 years) had children and as I grew to realize how important integrity was as a Father, I crashed and burned under the pain of being "someone else". As I recovered from my mental breakdown, I Came Out. Intergrity. Hmmm. My oldest son is 8 and tonight I am bringing him to the general Cub Scout recruiting meeting. What do I do? I loved Cub Scouts. It's not the need to have Scouting "embrace" homosexuality as it is the BSA's stance to exclude even their finest when they come out. The Courts ruled that the BSA had a right" but it's clearly evident that few felt they were "doing what was right". I respect what has been said but, as I searched for a reason for my homosexuality, I was left with no reason other than it "just is". My wife suffered most inspite of my attentiveness, compliments, fresh flowers and thoughtful gifts in spite of my attentions, she never felt desired. I could paid attention to her every need...I was doing it for her and it left me lost. I won't go on but I challenge you to move out of judgement and into curiousity. American Psychologists removed homosexuality from their list of psychological illness because it was sufficiently proven. Please check with them at: http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html We come from all cultures and all walks of life and, like all people, we cannot and should not be lumped together. The reason behind the "rainbow flag" is diversity. You would be downright shocked to know how many of us work side by side with you - but are afraid to let you know. Learn the difference between Pedophilia and Homosexuality. Peds are more typically attracted to all children and less often toward those of a particular sex. They are opportunistic and boys are most trusted alone. When a Gay person "Comes Out" they are being honest - I understand that I find fullfilment in the company of someone of my own sex. It's weird - YES! There are few examples to feel normal about. My point being this. I am Gay and I am Good. My children are in a well adjusted household with me and my life partner - much more so than when I was with their Mom. Our involvement in their lives and our community rivals most "straight" parents and yet, we are a bad example. It doesn't take long to create a list of people who where, in recent times, once "honestly" discriminated against. Less than 100 years ago women were unfit to be near the altar or allowed to vote or drive or hold jobs, etc... Thanks for listening - Phil