Cubmaster Jerry

I certainly understand all arguments for promoting "shopping". When I first became a leader, I was pretty adamant that we mandate feeding into our sister Troop. I felt that it was our "duty" as a Pack. A few years later, I had the opportunity see first hand how that Troop was run. I new some of the leaders in that Troop. They had helped make our Pack successful when they were there. I also understood (much more than my wife!) that Boy Scouts is much more hands off than Cub Scouts. However, these leaders were VERY hands off. When they invited the Webelos to their "Welcome to the Troop" camp, they hardly included them in anything. The Boy Scouts often ran wild, a few got injured at various times, bad language and smoking were "witnessed" by the Cubs at camp outs. Troop meetings were often chaotic. Patrol method? They had Patrols but no method. Since then, I still feel that obligation to the sister troop. Perhaps because I know it should be better. But now I am less adamant and recommend shopping. Now, here is another question. Let's say that your sister Troop is a poor one, for whatever reason. Is it typical to pull Den Chiefs from another Troop? I would think this would be appropriate, depending on what the Boy Scouts bring to the Cub meetings. Thanks! Jerry

CNYS, I applaud your efforts. While you may find that it would be easy to pull out and teach your son that which he is missing in the Troop, I ask you to look at the bigger picture. Clearly, Boy Scouts more importantly teaches the finer points of leadership, adult association, and service to others which is often well beyond the tasks associated with completing a merit badge. I urge you to continue to pursue your efforts within the Troop. Because it is not only your son that is not receiving these qualities. It is all the other boys in that Troop as well. It is encouraging to see that they understand some of the problems they have. Perhaps you can get them to work on them by using established program methods. Ask them to give you a year (after all it has been three already). If it doesn't work, then you can try someting else. Are they educated in the Program enough to recognize what is a part of it and what is not? The Honor Patrol that was suggested is a good idea. As mentioned. Start small and you can only get bigger! Good luck and thanks for your service and efforts! Jerry

Ok, here is something I struggle with each year. As a Pack and as a Webelos 2 Den leader, should we promote the idea of "shopping" around for the best Troop to our Webelos 2 Scouts and their parents? I have rarely, if at all, strayed from the steadfast answer of NO. I believe that the Cub Pack should feed only into its sister Troop. This had been an uphill battle for me as the Sister Troop for the Pack I was in up until last year had a difficult time retaining boys because of lack of quality leaders and lack of a quality program. That Troop is at least 8 yrs old, maybe older. It has had a (my) feeder Pack for at least that long. My Pack graduated, on average, 6-8 boys per year. Yet, the Troop membership level remains at about 15 boys or so. Some of the boys in my Pack moved into that Troop and many of those dropped out. Many went to another Troop in the area. As a gauge of how good their program is, they promoted their first Star scout just two years ago. I certainly understand the desire - no, the need for the boys to be in a quality program. However, as a leader I also understand what it takes to make a good program. My initial response to those who state they didn't want to move into our sister Troop because it is a poor program or has poor leadership is "How can you help make it better?" Working to improve a Troop is better than abandoning it. One of the problems I see with my argument is the fact that many of the "good" leaders at the Pack level don't often want to be as involved at the Troop level. Therefore the effort to make changes to a struggling Troop is more than what it would take to join a successful one. But where does that leave the struggling Troop? Still struggling, that's where. And then who suffers? That's right. Those boys who are registered to that Troop. My argument can be used for those who wish to leave struggling Packs as well. Now, I am not saying that we all should see ourselves as the savior for struggling programs but we do have it in our power to make a program better rather than see it waste away. And, quite often, it only takes one or two people to turn it around. Your thoughts? Jerry

This is an issue with me as well. In my old district that I just moved out of our RT is set up much like Lynda J's. However, the breakout sessions really were just unorganized discussions. The intent was for peers to talk about problems/successes and others to draw from them. It really never created the intended benefit. I always thought that there should have been some planned teachings, or at least an elaboration on the provided situation for each breakout session. Would have been more beneficial, I think. As it was, many of us felt that we only needed to go to pick up any info that they handed out. Also, plan one or two short activities. Something for the new attendees to do (I had to do some song where I was a bee flying around). Organize your RT around the monthly theme to provide ideas for Pack meetings. Our RT distributed beads to attach to name tags we wore around our neck. At the end of the year, the person or Pack (depending on how you want to do it) with the most attendees over the course of the year receive a real nice scouting related prize for their pack such as camping gear or the like. Hope this helps Jerry

We don't do popcorn either. Our percentage of profits just isn't that good enough and we do much better selling other items. I will add this fundraising tip. Be consistent year after year. We always had difficulty getting good sales because we would change our fundraisers all of the time. Keep the same fund raiser each year. People will come to expect you to sell and look forward to it.

Games work well for me too. To add on to that, have a Travelling Trophey, or the like, for the winner. Each Pack meeting, the current holder of the trophey returns it back to you and you and you award it to the winner of that meeting's game. Make sure all Dens win at least once throughout the year. Also, hold a Pack meeting outdoors at a park or an overnight Family Camp. Make the camp close enough for those to attend who don't want to camp. Jerry

Yes! Back to Scouting! I love this stuff!! I am assuming that these activities that you are looking for are geared toward returning scouts vs. an effort to recruit new scouts? About the third week of September, we schedule a Family Camp. This not only allows current scouting familes to experience a little bit different program than the weekly one they are used to but allows new scouts the opportuntity to get to know many of those in the Pack in a laid back atmosphere. We usually have about a 50% attendance at this. As I would always like more, I am thinking of having a Family Picnic this year, to draw those who may be leery of camping. I would lean away a bit from the "structured" scouting requirement activities and opt for more of an open game time. They will get plenty of opportuntity to work on reqirements, belt loops, etc throughout the year. It will help remind them of how fun scouting is, especially if they didn't attend any of the Summer activities. Although, keeping with the "Race In Scouting" theme, you may want to think about dragging your Derby track out, if your Pack has one, and have the boys bring their old cars. No real organized competition but just fun race time. This may be more of a hassle depending on how long it takes to put it up! Jerry

Beth, Welcome to Scouting! Let me be the first to thank you for your service to boys in your area and to Scouting. I have about a million helpful hints for your million questions but will start with a few basic "good-to-knows". 1. Training. You will hear this from all other subsequent posters. This is invaluable. You should contact your District to find out when and where you can get Youth Protection, New Leader Essentials, and Leader Specific training. That will get you started on the path to figuring things out. Also, Pow Wow is supplemental training that is a wonderful opportunity to get ideas that will help you. 2. Lean on your Unit Commissioner and those two Committee members with all that experience! Your UC is at the District Level and is your liason between the Pack and District. He/she is responsible for making sure you have all the help and information you need to have a successful program. 3. Den Meetings. As the leader, the first thing you will want to do is understand the program you are leading. What is required? What activities are suggested/appropriate for your boys? The Tiger/Wolf/Bear/Webelos Handbook is a great place to start here. Program Helps are also available from the Council. These will essentially guide you through your program year. The biggest suggestion I can give you regarding your meetings is to MAKE THEM FUN! There are many opportunities for memorization or other book work that is required for certain requirements. Make games for these so the boys remain interested. Also, you don't necessarily have to work on requirements at every meeting. Have a meeting where you just play board/outdoor games without referencing the handbook. You will find out that even these activities are a part of their advancement but it gives the boys a break from any regimented "learning". It will also give you a break too!. There are also many activity books and resources available for your reference. I would also suggest having 2-3 den meetings a month. Any less than that you run the risk of not keeping the boys interested. 3. Discipline. This can be the most difficult part of your program. I once had to mandate that certain parents had to stay at the meeting or else their son was not allowed to. This was an extreme case with a few particularly troublesome boys. But, parents in attendance can also be a hinderance to discipline as well. Alot of times simple redirection works. You can also have Denners in your Den. This is a boy that is either elected by his peers or chosen by you to be your helper. Rotate this as often as you see fit. As a LAST resort (and I hesitate to even mention this as a possibility), you will want to restrict a boy from an activity. 4. Don't do it all yourself. Along with the 6 boys in your Den, you also have 6 sets of parents. Lean on them. If you are a Tiger Leader, the parents have to be there anyway. If your boys are older, you will undoubted have parents that stay at the meetings. If not, ask them to. They probably aren't gung-ho about helping out (or else they would be the DL!) so ask them to do little things - plan one meeting, bring snack for another, help you out during meeting times. Don't be afraid to ask. Pretty soon some will become more helpful and you never know. They may relegate you to your previous ADL position when they take over! 5. Den Dues. These can be handled any number of ways. Whatever works best. All of my den leaders ask the parents to ante up on an as needed basis. I personally don't like this as the parents tend to feel nickle-and-dimed to death. I would suggest having the boys bring a set amount to each meeting. If, come spring time, you find yourself not needing as much as you asked them to bring, just have them cut back. Maybe start with $.50 to $1 per meeting. The boys should realize they have to pay dues even if they can't show up. This teaches responsibility. Hope this helps. Good luck and Thanks again! Jerry(This message has been edited by Cubmaster Jerry)

I can speak from both sides of the track. A Pack I was previously in was set up so all Dens met on the same night at School. There were some inconveniences as you elude to with space but it worked out fine. From a CC/CM point of view it is nice to have all of dens in one place for communication purposes. The Troop also met on this same day of the week and there were issues with Den Chiefs not being able to participate. In fact, we had difficulty taking advantage of them because of that fact. But, it is difficult for either the Troop or the Pack to switch because the parents and leaders are used to meeting then. On the other side, my new Pack has Den Chiefs available because the dens all meet whenever they can as does the Troop. The Den Chiefs seem to be available as needed (although I don't think the dens take advantage of them). If I were in your shoes, I would suggest the Pack and Troop meet on different nights.

We had only a couple of home schooled boys (brothers) in my Pack and experienced no problems with scheduling or the like. Maybe that was because their mother was one of my most active Den Leaders who eventually became CC. I would tend to lean away from separating home schooled boys from the others simply because of the needed interaction, as ScoutNut mentioned. BUT, like Semp states, if it is a matter of them not joining at all, then I would consider it - but not without a struggle on my part.

About 6 yrs now, I guess. He and I were in the Air Force together. A top-notch supervisor he was!

I have always said that I have the coolest job in the world - and it sure isn't the one I get paid for. But I also realize that as CM, a lot of boys and parents depend on me to entertain them and help provide a program that they get excited about. Most don't even realize that Baden Powell envisioned our role as scout leaders to teach leadership, discipline, and self reliance. And I suppose that in a well run program the boys will learn these these things without them or their parents realizing they are being taught. Too seriously? I am not sure about the TOO part of that question. I am sure one would be considered TOO serious if they hung on every word in every Leader Handbook and Guidline published by BSA and never had any fun. However, it is important to remember that, while we as leaders are given a lot of leeway when running our program, there are guidelines that are set before us to abide by. As one of my college instructors once said, "The (course) book is there for a reason. Many educated and experienced people spent time and effort to put together the information for you to use and succeed by. It is not for you to decide what to regard and what to disregard." There is a lot of merit to that statement. I often think back (as I am sure we all do) to my time as a youth scout. It may have been only one hour a week but I recall many, many events during that time. Many of the things I learned as a scout helped shape my life. Too seriously? Probably. But being a scout leader is not akin to being a recess monitor. When I tell new leaders that the most important thing is to have fun with the boys I also make sure they are aware that there are guidelines for that fun. I found this sometime ago and have used it in my closings a couple of times. I think it is quite known but I will include here in case you haven't seen it. It goes a long way in point out how serious we should take our responsibility. http://www.scoutxing.com/poems/poems070.htm Jerry

Thanks Cary! Just trying to learn and share...

The idea that a fund raiser should provide "real value" for the boy should be a deciding factor in deciding if it is appropriate. Unfortunately, most fund raisers that we do (count me as guilty), including selling popcorn, do not. Where is the real value in tacking up a sales sheet in the break room at the parent's work or hocking them to family and friends in hopes of reaching sales goals? I would contend that, when done this way, the scout probably doesn't have any idea of the amount of money being raised or even that a fund raiser is taking place. I am all for doing general labor at a local resident's property, pancake breakfasts, car washes, winshield washes, "bob-a-job's", etc that get the boys involved and obtaining real value. Going door to door with a popcorn sheet does not count. I recall doing projects such as this when I was a Cub Scout. From my point of view at that age, I probably didn't even realize that money was being brought in to the Pack but I certainly was better off for it in the end. Probably moreso because I didn't realize that money was involved. Provide a function such as this and the boy will be richer in the end. Jerry

Hello all, I am looking for an idea to replace my Pack Totem Pole that I have used for the last couple of years. The way my Totem Pole works is I have sections of a 2x4 cut for each den. At each Pack meeting, I have a contest, whether it be a game, center piece contest (for B&G), or something else. The winning Den takes home the section and decorates it at one of their meetings the following month. They decorate it relative to their den by painting it, include their names, photos, or whatever. They can do whatever they want as long as it is scout related and their decoration still allows me to put it together with the rest of them. Well, by the end of the year, we have a totem that represents each den in the Pack. The kids really enjoy it. I bring them out at each Pack meeting for display. The problem is - of course - storage. It's not easy to locate a place to store a 8 - 10ft pole or 8 - 10 individual sections with who knows what hanging off of it. We meet at school and there is no storage available there. Any ideas?

Alot of great ideas here for you! I will also add that you don't have to do every requirement in the first five months. Spread it out. Also, you can work on the electives while you work on the badge requirments. You just can't award them until the badge is awarded. This will help with the parents who may ask if they have to keep coming. Also, don't forget Pack meeting events! Your Cubmaster may ask you to do a skit or song at a pack meeting. If he doesn't, ask him if you can. Depending on what you do, it could take you two meetings for the boys to learn the skit/song. One other quick idea that goes along with making it fun. The Bobcat and other requirements that require memorization can be a little taxing for 1st graders to learn. Make a game of it rather than having them recite out of the book. This is great to do for all ranks. Jerry

I will agree with ScoutNut and others that it is best to keep the programs separated. While there are certain requirements (specifically in Wolf and Bear) that are similar, it would be far too difficult to do them together over the course of the year. I had a new fifth grader join my Pack last year. Since the current 2nd yr Webelos had already earned their badge and were now doing their Arrow of Light requirement, I led him through the year. He not only earned his badge but his AOL as well AND is now thriving in the Troop. What I am saying is that if you end up with a Den of one, so be it. As CM Fred suggested, hold recruitment events. School night for Scouting is right around the corner. Depending on the size of your area, you are sure to get a few then. NEVER turn away boys. I understand you not wanting to get too overwhelmed but once you get rolling (which will be about November ) you will be just fine. Good luck and make it fun. Jerry

We, too, usually only do fundraisers that require orders vs. signing out product. Since you can't talk to her, the only two choices you have is to eat the loss or file a complaint with the local authorities. Since she signed for it, she's liable. If you go the latter route, a couple of helpful hints for you: 1. Certified letters. cubbingcarol is correct. They work best in this situation. Give her specific date to repay and spell out exactly the intentions of the Pack and what she owes and why. 2. If you do re-establish communication and she offers a payment plan of some sort, do not accept it. Depending on the laws in your area, it will no longer be considered theft. If she then fails to make all payments it may be a breech of contract. But then you are looking at more cost to you to get that resolved. As suggested, the CO may help in this case. District or Council won't be much help as they prefer to not get involved with individual Pack issues. I would agree that her actions lead you to believe this is more than a 12-yr old being involved. I shudder to think what a 12-yr old would need $250 at school for! Jerry

Well, it seems that you have much more work ahead of you than figuring out why some parents are upset enough at the CM to leave the Pack. You have received some great advice so far - bank statements, meeting with the COR and the CC, and no family members on the bank sig card together. If he is refusing to meet and even show you the "books", you certainly have the right to be concerned. Recently, we had a CM that was skimming off the books. He lived with the Treasurer and...well, let's put it this way. He is now in Jail. Now that you have an idea that something is up, investigate! Hopefully it won't be this serious. One other very important thing. Keep in contact with those parents that left. You will get this worked out whether it is with the CM opening up or leaving. Once you do, they will hopefully want to come back. Maybe even before to help you work things out. The worst thing that can ever happen in situations like this is that the Scouting organization looses boys.

BB and Archery can ONLY be earned at Council or District level events such as Day Camp or other Summer Camps. These can only be taught by Certified instructors. You can receive this training through your Council. If you are trained, you are still NOT authorized to instruct at the Pack or Den level. Hope this info is helpful... Jerry

I am standing at the end of the line with msnowman when it comes to discouraging the wear of the Class A uniform. True, the Class B is a better alternative - if you have one. But, in my opinon, the Class A is better than a non-scouting shirt. Despite its dark color, it a relatively light material and should be cool enough for them. Just becareful they don't tear them up Have fun!

As it is the Cubmaster's job to organize the dens (not the CC, not the Committe, not the DL), I would recommend to him/her the best arrangement. As with any group, you should be able to tell which boys work best together. Perhaps some live in the same neighborhood or in the same class at school. From your postings, it seems that the CM also has a den? This tells me that your Pack is weak in Leadership recruitment. The CM should be on the phone to all affected parents trying to drum up leaders. If he needs help, have him turn to the Unit Commissioner. It is part of their responsibility to help recruit leaders if the Pack is having difficulty. It may take awhile as parents who don't want to jump in feet first often don't even want to dip their toes in. But you will get them. Jerry

I will have to disagree with at few of the responses that suggest that asking questions isn't the way to go. I most certainly would ask the scout (any scout) about his experience in doing any requirement whether it be belt loop, pin, elective, or badge requirement. Now, of course, don't establish it as a "test" but utilize it as, say, sharing time at den meetings. The other boys will enjoy hearing about other's accomplishments and it may encourage them to be more involved and excited about scouts. Lynda J's example of having the boy help is a great idea too. IF he has a tough time recalling what he did, speak to the mother and suggest that maybe he is doing too much and not reaping the full benefit from the experience. As we all know, quality is far better than quantity in Scouting. Another thing to think about, and this goes along with the idea of misinformed parents, it is quite possible that the boy is the one who is misinformed. Perhaps the boy is telling his mother that he did all of the work she is just filling out the spreadsheet based on what he says. As we all know, some parents are very inactive and couldn't tell you what rank their boy is much less what he needs to do to earn it. Like bbng, I too would like to hear more about the 28 field trips. I am assuming that you made learning all of the requirements much more than sitting down and reading. Good for you! But don't wear yourself out. You have three more years to go!

Michelle, This is something that I have in the works myself as well. I believe that the kids in my Pack will get excited about the belt loops as they are easy to earn and plentiful. As it is, all boys but Webelos don't really have anything to be recognized for (award/badge wise) throughout the year so this will fill that void. I plan on having activities that are geared toward belt loop requirements, much like you are. We have had one already - Fishing. It was scheduled as one of our summertime activities so I made sure we covered the requirements. Our next opportunity will be our Family Campout. This will allow me to do one of the outdoor sporting activities. You have already received a few suggestions but take a look at the book if you already haven't. There are quite a few that would be good for a group your size. Good Luck! Jerry

CM363, I have the same belief that you do. For my point, I try to tell the Dens that request this that it does not promote Pack unity but Den individuality. When that doesn't work, I then pull out the Leader Book. Needed financial support for things that Committee Member's dens raised money for should be budgeted. If Dens need money for specific projects or outings, that money should come from Den Dues or Pack funds, depending on the structure of your Pack finances. Additionally, if funds are raised through Den activities, it limits the amount of money that the Pack earns through its fund raisers. Before joining my new Pack they had a parent who wanted to make a large donation. I never bothered to get a clear explanation of the "gift" as it was already a done deal before I arrived but the sum of about $500 ended up going directly to that den only. Had I been there, I certainly would have done my best to not allow that to occur.