Cubmaster Jerry

Yes. Now if only I could get paid to do this, I would do it full time. Wait. I think I AM doing this full time! And lovin' every minute of it. Jerry

I had a discussion with my 13-yr old just the other day about branching out his activities, thinking outside "the box" when combating his boredom, and trying new things. Even in a Boy-led troop, the boys need guidance from leaders who are trained and aware of the Program. They don't know what they are missing. They have to first be introduced to it and then who knows what interests will be sparked.

I only mentioned 2nd Class in my questions to cover any possible requirement differences due to rank. But given your explanation, meamemg, I take that to mean that if a Boy Scout passes the Swimming requirement in question, no matter if he jumped feet first in water a few inches over his head or water 9' deep, the answers to both of my questions in my last post are "YES". If that is true, then, as a leader passing the boy on his Swim test after he was able to jump in water a few inches over his head, would you feel comfortable letting that boy out on a canoe or in the swimmers area on the waterfront (which I presume is deeper than a few inches over his head)? Would the boy feel comfortable?? That should drive the interpretation and the administration of the skill. If the INTENT is for the boy to be comfortable enough in deep water to fend for himself or help others, allowing him to pass the test without experiencing that type of situation is wrong.(This message has been edited by Cubmaster Jerry)

ScoutNut states that "Even after a requirement has been signed off, the boy should still be practicing the skill often. The next time we are at a pool or lake with the boys we can do a mini training showing them the proper way to enter deep water." While I agree with the first part, I am scratching my head at the second. Teach him the PROPER way AFTER signing off??? Do I misunderstand??? And, ScoutNut, no, it DOESN'T seem like everyone is "woefully ignorant" of the skills that need to be taught. What the discussion point here is not what skills should be taught but the literal interpretation of those skills, specifically how deep constitutes over the head. Again, what is the INTENT of the 2nd class requirement? Is it to get a 2nd Class scout used to simply getting his head and face underwater or is it to get a 2nd Class scout used to jumping in to water, no matter how deep? Answer these two questions for me (anyone). (1)In the requirements for Canoeing, boating, and other "deep" water activities, are 2nd Class scouts allowed to go out alone or with other 2nd Class scouts if they have passed the Swimming requirement in question? (2) By passing the Swimming requirement, is a 2nd Class scout allowed to go into the deep end of a pool without a PFD? Off a diving board? In my experience, which parallels my opinion and interpretation, "over your head" means water deep enough that which does not allow you to consistently bounce above the surface of the water. This is to be sure that the boy can help himself should he find himself in water that is "too deep".

Wow, to go from nothing to $10 a month is quite a jump. Unless you have some great (and expensive) outings or Pack meeting guests or boys who earn a ton of belt loops or arrow points, you will probably find yourself in the "black" at the end of the year. That isn't necessarily a good thing. Parents, even if they did fully understand the need to charge dues, might have a hard time understanding where that $90 a year is going. And you might have a hard time explaining it. May I offer this suggestion? First, don't burden your treasurer with Den dues. Let the Den leaders handle those expenses. They can collect from the boys as they see fit (i.e every meeting or as needed). Second, figure out an average of what your pack wants to buy through Pack dues and charge that. I can send you my spreadsheet with amounts on this if you PM me but I did this for my Pack and for $85 a year we could cover, each year, registration, Boys Life, book, neckerchief, slide, totem/beads, rank badges, 3 belt loops, 4 Webelos pins, Webelos colors, 6 Special Activity patches, service stars, PWD car, Regatta boat, cost of B&G meal, cost of Crossover meal, and even a Class B t-shirt (just once). Now, we choose to not pay for all of that through Pack dues and only charge $42. We are acutally guaranteed to collect (ideally) $52 a year because we offer a $10 fund raiser buyout. Additionally, historically, the Pack has made about $15 profit per boy each year through fund raisers. So, we chose $66 out of that $85 to pay for from dues collection. Parents pay for the rest. (This message has been edited by Cubmaster Jerry)

Well, we certainly wouldn't want to put a boy in a situation that he is uncomfortable in, no matter how we interpret the wording. As kittle states, her son gained confidence in shallow water first. My son did as well. In Cub Summer camps they have different levels of swimming. Those who can't pass the test swim in shallow (4ft) water. Then there is intermediate (which allows the boys to bounce above the water line), and then Swimmer - the deep end. Again, what is the intent of the 2nd Class requirement? Obviously, for the requirment for boating, the intent should be for the boy to jump in so he can not touch the bottom. I would also imagine that 1st Class requirements would be progressively more difficult than 2nd Class. What is expected from a boy who has met the 2nd Class requirements? I wouldn't think we would expect the same as we do from a 1st Class or Eagle scout.

I will let you know after 1 Sep. That is when mine is. Last year we had 44 new signups (we are a rapidly growing community). I am expecting that many this year. I already have one new Tiger and his dad who wants to be a leader. I love it when recruits and leaders fall into your lap! I also like us2bnowl's belt loop idea. Jerry

When it is a decision of literal vs. intent, I always side with intent. Speaking from experience, it is difficult to write instructions that cover all of the bases. Ask yourself what is the intent of the task and go with that. It may be that it is the same as the literal translation and it may not. In particular difficult translations, follow the lead of Council. Jerry

We have used the same arrow as pamchuckm. Find out if someone is handy with a router and cut the AOL emblem out in a piece of oak. Clear coat it and hang the arrow in eye hooks below. It looks great!

If it were my money I was betting I would surely put it one the fact that the program at Jamborees is so cool that patch trading fills that time in which nothing else is going on. As far as the value attached to them, I can only hope that the only value received is that of new friends and good fellowship and not dollars. Thanks to all! Jerry

I have always been an advocate of keeping boys in scouting at all costs. There has been much talk in this thread about ADHD and how that affects a child. But, from my experience, the medication works wonders so my guess is that the condition isn't the problem, unless he is not getting his medication. That leaves the boy at just being a royal pain and troublemaker. When I was a Den Leader I had 8 boys from Day 1 to Grad. Half were good kids, half were perennial troublmakers. (two of each "group" were ADHD). I eventually got to the point where I had to ask all parents to remain at the meetings and help control their boys because I and my ADL felt we could no longer run an effective program. We asked all parents so as not to single any boy out, although everyone knew the reason for the request. Every boy gradutated into Boy Scouts, each earning their AOL. The four aren't model citizens and, as far as I know, still get into trouble at school. But I cling to the idea that once they get older and grow out of this stage, they will fall back on some of the values that my ADL and I taught them. Jerry

Trevorum, I am certainly not doubting that for many it offers a chance to meet new people and make new friends as well as provide a stimulus for memories years later. I know mine do. However, you bring up a point that I was directing my concern at. If the patch trading is initiated by the boys "And each scout got to decide for himself how much time and energy to spend in trading, just as he did for working on merit badges or doing Action Alley stuff" does that lead to boys not participating in non-patch trading activities?

Hello, While participating in another forum, someone mentioned how prominent patch trading is at Jamborees. As a Boy Scout, I certainly remember trading patches myself. However I do not recall it being the focal point of the week. The indications I got from the other posting was that many boys elected to spend the majority of their time trading patches instead of taking part in any program activities. It was even mentioned that these patch collections are valued at hundreds and hundreds of dollars. Is this accurate? I admit that I have no first hand experience or previous explanations on this topic so I may be way off base (that's why I came to this forum ) But if it is accurate my simple question is what is the point? I understand the excitement that the patches provide but is that what the Jamboree is all about? Shouldn't we be directing the boys to program activities? Also, how do you value patches? Is there a Price guide somewhere? Just curious. It would seem that applying a value to the patches pulls that activity even further from Scouting philosophy. Thanks for the info, Jerry

Wow. I feel both frustrated and exhilarated by this and I am NOT a part of this boys troop I do have couple of questions though. 1. As I understand it, this scout has a history of bad decisions dating back to his days as a Cub. I assume that his fellow scouts are aware of at least some of this behavior as he has been "on the carpet" for potential removal from the TROOP at least twice before. Yet, his peers still elect him as SPL? 2. While it seems that these poor decisions have been repetitive for awhile they are not continuous. He apparently does make some good decisions and elicit some good leadership qualities. Is that right? We, as leaders, are charged with upholding the Scout Law and pointing our scouts down that path. As mentioned, everyone makes mistakes. And we have to keep that in mind and understand our limits in leading these boys. While there is certainly a long history, I would ask myself if this boy elicits some of that model behavior or is he just an all around problem child that other boys gravitate towards. I said I feel frustrated because I know how it is to deal with boys that are perennial problems. Most of my experiences are with those that are just royal pains and troublemakers, not someone with very visible potential. I feel exhilarated because this presents itself as a wonderful opportunity to shape a boy into a man. I agree with pjzedalis. I think that the best thing for this boy is to have a mentor. It is clear to me that this boy has, among other things, leadership skills. Those on many levels from his peers to those at National level recognize this. This is not to say that a decision to at least demote him from his SPL duties isn't warranted but certainly don't give up on him. I would tend to believe that if you continue your efforts to push this boy down the proper path, your efforts will bear fruit. Maybe not until after he leaves you, and probably not without other "detours", but it will. Hunt, it is difficult for me as well when comparing this situation with the boy who drinks. With the boy who drinks, it isn't so much that particular act, as serious as it is, but more so the idea that he wants to leave the scouting organization as soon as he get his Eagle, seemingly to take the booty and run. This boy is making some mistakes that can be seen as equally as serious but it seems that scouting leaders are better suited to encourage a change in behavior here than with the drinking issue. And at least this boy doesn't have his parent's encouragement! Jerry

Kahuna, I, and I think others, agree that the bigger issue from our (Leader) point of view is not upholding the legal law but the Scout Law. All, How about this perspective - What are we as a scouting organization and what is he, as an Eagle Scout, going to get out of receiving his Eagle? You'd have to assume that he has worked hard up to this point but, as T216 states "He wants to get his Eagle immediately and basically be done with scouts. I do not sense that he will be one to continue to participate in scouts once he gets it." So, this tells me that he wants this to simply serve as a trophey on the mantle. It may be that it won't represent his adherance to the Scout Law. I am not making the assumption that this drinking issue indicates other anti-Scout Law activites nor am I saying that he "owes" the organization of Scouting anything. But the Rank of Eagle, as does being a Scout, does offer a representation of what kind of values and morals one has. How would an organization such as the BSA look if the quality of an individual that leaves the organization is not one that represents what that organization stands for? Isn't that part of our responsibility as leaders? From a curiosity stand point, what, if anything, would T216 and others "in-the-know" be liable for if this boy did do anything that was related to his drinking? I am sure there would at least be a few "What if I had only..." questions asked.

found this while surfing and immediately thought of this thread. Some of you may find it interesting. http://www.medpagetoday.com/Pediatrics/Parenting/tb/1503 Jerry

msnowman, this is exactly what I hope to do this year as well. I have given this much thought. Right now, I only have one Den that has a flag. I would love to have my pack purchase the official flag for each of my dens but with 12 Dens and $10 a flag, I may have trouble convincing the committee. However, den flags don't have to be the offical blue one. Frankly, I have a few den leaders who will balk at the idea of having to go through the trouble of making one. You know the kind. So, to get around this, I hope to generate excitement by handing out ribbons, beads, and the like at each pack meeting and pack event to hang on the flag, much like you do on a Pack flag. These ribbons, beads, etc, would be given out for any number of things. Bringing the flag, all boys in uniform, bringing something for the display table - things like that. I also am thinking of having a Travelling Cubmaster Ribbon. This would be given out at Pack Meetings to a single den. It, of course, will be bigger and bolder than anything else I give out. I haven't quite decided what criteria needs to be met to earn it. I hope to build pride and excitement through this effort. I can't wait to get it started. Jerry

mbs, Yes, it is a bit much to ask the Den Leaders to give both time and more than their share of money to the Pack. I have always been in favor of having the boy bring a set amount to each meeting. That money is given directly to the Den Leader to cover current or future Den expenses. The boy should be encouraged to "earn" his den dues at home. This also allows the DL to adjust the amount collected if they find that they are collecting too much or too little. This is what I am going to push my den leaders to do this year. My old Pack charges a certain Annual Den Due amount and that money goes to the Pack. This amount is "charged" at the beginning of the year along with the pack dues. The Den Leader then turns in receipts throughtout the year and gets paid back out of that money. This puts the burden of tracking Den dues on the Treasurer. I really wouldn't suggest this. Other than putting the unnecessary burden on the Treasurer, it often leads to bloated Den accounts. Additionally, my current Pack's Den Leaders charge each parent on an as needed basis. This usually puts the Den Leader in a spot to ask for small amounts of money (say $1.00) from each parent on a regular basis (every den meeting). This seems to work well for them but I always felt like this was "nickle-and-diming" the parent. The parent always felt like they owed money. And if the DL didn't want to ask for that small of an amount, then they are left shouldering the burden. Some of my leaders keep a tally and charge the parent at the end of the year. If you set up a system that may find the den leader collecting too much, I would not recommend the Den Leaders using that extra money for year end parties, camp shirts, or the like just so the money can be spent. That is not what the money is collected for and you may find some parents may have a problem with that. As far as Pack Dues, we have broken out exactly what the Pack pays for and we charge the parent that amount. We use our pack dues for recharter, boys life, books, rank badges and patches we hand out for special activities or events. This is my first full year at this Pack and am going to recommend a few changes. Because we do it this way, we put the burden of cost on any non-rank badges, such as arrow points and belt loops on the parents. Again, more nickle-and-diming. I hope to find a 5-yr average that covers most things and charge that amount as Pack Dues. But whatever you do, as madkins suggests, do not offer refunds. As far as fund raisers, we use these to subsidize the program itself. For example, we pay for our Blue & Gold, PWD, and Crossover from here. If a boy does not participate, they are "charged" a buy-out fee of $10. They can also elect this option. This seems like a small amount to get out of doing a fund raiser but we also push the benefits of a successful one. Besides earning money for the Pack, each boy who participates in the fund raiser also earns money for himself. We have an accout set up for each boy whereby they earn 50% of the profit they bring in. This money can be spent on scout related items. This has worked well for a both programs I have been involved with. Fundraisers are everything. If you can support your program with them alone, as ScoutNut can, you are golden. However, it seems as if you are not in that boat as your funds have finally reached a low point. It can be difficult to reach that balance between not charging enough to sustain a good program or charging too much and making a "profit". Good luck. Jerry

Great ideas so far. I will add emphasis to OR Pioneer's suggestion on using the Unit Commissioner. There will be many dates and events (as you are already aware of some) that you will need to know. That is what they are there for. Utilize your Fall recruitment drive (School Night For Scouting) to promote the need for volunteers. Continue this through to your first Pack Meeting to cover all parents. Start by emphasizing the small tasks. It can be an overwhelming thought for some to be asked to lead a whole Den. But let them all know what is needed! You didn't mention it but I assume you still have a Committee Chair. I assume he/she was with the Pack last year? Also, I will assume that the outgoing CubMaster is still in the area. Meet with him/her and go over what is needed. One additional date that you need to look for is Camp sign up. In my Council, we have a lottery date in December that we have to get our reservations in by. A month or so later, we are then assigned a camp site and date for our respective camps based on our requests. If we fail to meet this lottery deadline, we are stuck with leftovers! Find out what is done in your Council. Jerry

Kahuna, I see. Thanks for that info. And I too would tend to lean away from seeking counsel from Council. They usually maintain a "hands-off" approach when it comes to dealing with intra-unit issues.

I, too, have been involved in both small and large Packs - a CM for both. My small Pack had about 40 boys, the larger (current) one about 85 - 90. Obviously, the smaller unit the easier it is to manage. However, with my current one, I simply have to depend more on my leaders. At Pack meetings, activities such as games become much more to manage. How easy is it to play a game with 90 boys?! Additionally, on outings and off-site meetings, we have the potential for a HUGE group. As an example, for Blue & Gold, we had to make sure we had a facility that would hold 300 people. This isn't to say that our program suffers because it is so large. It is successful, but, as mentioned, there is some disconnect between the boys. I would, however, highly discourage "throttling down" recruitment, even though it may be allowed by BSA. Rather, meet with your Unit Commissioner and discuss starting up another Unit.

To me, this is clearly a function of LAW. Both Legal and Scout. If you do not put forth some consequenses, other boys may interpret this as acceptance on the part of the Troop. You can check with your local laws. I would tend to believe that you could be liable because you know about the situation. Having the family as friends does put a cramp in the whole thing for you but this reaches a lot farther than that family's home. T216, I am glad that you mentioned that the consequence of stopping advancement would apply to all ranks and not just Eagle. It seems common sense to do that but one can understand the need to question that if it wasn't mentioned. As far as the argument made a couple times in this thread conderning whether or not other scouts are doing it is really a moot point right now. From my understanding, there is no proof of any other violation, only assumptions. Would you be making an example of this boy? It may seem so, but the Law is the Law and your policy clearly states drug/alcohol and advancement coorelation. Others will hopefully see the consequences being handed out and cease their drinking activities. And as far as whether or not we adults broke this same law when we were kids is also moot. Just because we (or others) did it doesn't make an argument for not upholding the law. I started drinking when I was 17 and probably drank to excess more before the age of 21 than I have after. Does that make me a hypocrite if I punish this boy? No. What that means is that I (hopefully) am taking the opportunity to be a mentor for this child and help lead him down the right path. And Kahuna, you are correct that DRINKING is not illegal under 21 in some states. However, where the law covers this is regarding purchasing AND/OR possession under 21. And even if there is (and I don't think there is) still a state where these laws are effective earlier than 21, I doubt that they are as young as 15. As far as covering this at meetings or even showing this thread to his father - I would be very hesitant at doing either. You don't want to come across as airing somelses dirty laundry or making an example out of someone. However, reminders of policy and law (Legal and Scout) are apparently needed. How to balance that is the tricky part. I wish you luck. Jerry

No, ScoutNut, no one in my Pack is limiting the Den Chief "pool" to our sister troop. It just seems like a natural process - much like feeding them does. However, it seems like it is all a part of a failed system at times. We just had our District Planning meeting. One of the topics discussed was concerning the creation of new units. This of course depends on the location of these units but it would seem like more effort should be placed on supporting weak units rather than creating new ones. There is a Cub Pack that is just starting up near mine. It's close enough for us to pull a few boys a year from this area. The problem with this is that, from what I understand, this is at least the third year in a row that someone has attempted to start a Pack there. Each year the Pack has folded and those boys and parents were left with a bad taste in their mouth for Scouting. I am sure that at the District Level, they see their support is provided through their promotion of training and recruiting - which the implementation of is normally placed on the shoulders of the unit, not the district. Maybe some training in being a salesman would help us at the unit level. The district just wants numbers. The more units there are, the more "successful" they are as a District. However, that says nothing about the state of those units. In fact, as we all know, the District and Council prefer a "hands-off" approach when it comes to dealing with many issues that a unit faces. In my previous Pack/district (that I was in until last year), and which my initial situation is from, I saw Silver epaulettes once a year - at Blue & Gold when they came for their Friends of Scouting sales pitch. Maybe that is not representative of how District Execs and Commissioners should be but being the only District that I have been a part of (before my move) it is what I know. Wouldn't it be beneficial for the District to be more involved in the units? Pushing training, teaching some of the finer points of running a program, suggestions on financing methods, etc? With that new Pack in my area, I have taken upon myself to meet with their new Cubmaster and Committee Chair (who each no nothing about running a program) and go over these exact topics. I have invited them to my early Pack, Den, and Committee meetings so they can get a first-hand idea of what to expect and do. My Unit Commissioner is the one who told me about the new Pack and provided me with the Cubmasters phone number. She has not been in contact with that new Cubmaster since. My new Pack is about 70-75 boys strong at year end. However, this is after about a 40% attrition rate from September levels. This concerns me greatly. Additionally, they lose 1-2 leaders a year for one reason or another. They accept these attrition rates as "normal". That mindset will change with me for sure but surely those at the District level are aware of this come recharter time. Why hasn't anything been done? 40%!!!! I have kind of rambled here, but this all gets back to my original concern about what should be done with struggling units. It just seems that it is all too easy to let them continue to put on a poor program or just die. Jerry

as did I

I would be interested in what District has to say. I can't lean on any kind of precedence but I'd tend to believe that District would not be as strong armed as you - and I - would be. I hesistate to say that they may even turn a blind eye, as unfortunate as that may be. As you so accurately state, the Oath, and Law that we learn in Scouting is intended for us to live by. Not just during the hours we spend doing scouting activities. This boy is doing someting that is wrong on all levels. It shows no consistency with Scouting and its values. As you state, he is showing no interest in continuing on in the Scouting program after his Eagle. His actions and this decision show me that he values little in what (if anything) he has learned in scouting. Eagle is just a trophy on his mantle, not a badge he wears on his chest with pride, dignity, and honor. If it were my decision, I wouldn't just slow him down, I stop his progress toward Eagle. Unless he can change.