Cubmaster Jerry

I used to belong to a unit that had similar problems. We had a committe of about 12. We did hold elections for positions simply because we felt that, as a committee, we wanted to help ensure that the right people were in place. By "right" I mean those who would help the Pack Go. It wasn't a vote of favoritism. Often there was only one candidate anyway and it was already one that we had decided would be good. Our elected people were were in until they wanted to leave. We didn't hold annual elections or anything like that. We had to vote a couple of people out but it was a unanimous thing based on facts. This committee also had a clique of about 4 people. They would sit at the committee meetings and not say anything then go home and call each other and complain about everything. It was more of a nusiance than anything because they really weren't in charge of anything other than their den, except the PWD chair and that was his "baby" so that went well. Sem is correct in that you can't (technically) remove a CC. Only the CO can. HOWEVER, since your CO is so hands off they probably don't know their responsibilities nor would they enact them if they did. Can I also assume that your CC probably doesn't know whose particular responsibility this is either? As such, lightening won't strike you dead if you vote this person out. Another, softer approach is to gently push her out by gradually assuming her duties out from under her. It's not nice, but if someone (perhaps a prospective CC??) starts planning things and otherwise slowly doing the CC's job, she will get the idea and leave or at the least not be responsible for anything important. But before you do anything like this, ask your self if this person is truly preventing the Pack from going or is it conflict of personalities or other similar issue. With my committee, as the CC, I finally had to pull out the "why you are a leader/act your age" speech. And although I didn't point fingers everyone knew who it was directed at. It wasn't pretty and only mildly effective but it did get some things out in the open and created a little less tension. There were others on my committe not in that group of four, that thought I should fire people who weren't doing their job. My speech probably riled them more than it did the four but as I told them, not doing a job is one thing, not doing it as good as you would is another. Regardless, handle it carefully. Public perception and opinion can be swayed by a single voice whether or not it is true. That can hurt the pack in the long run. Good luck! CMJ

Dejavu all over again.... I feel your pain because I have been there. I have a couple of questions: 1. Why does the CM need to stay the CM? Is it because there is a lack of leadership? Because you feel such a strong tie to this Pack, is it possible for you to continue to help despite the hour distance? When I left my old Pack, they were without a CM. The ACM was new and not comfortable with assuming the full responsibility yet and at the time his work conflicted. I drove an hour a month to run the Pack meetings for that first 6 months. It wasn't convenient at times but it was possible. And, to me, it was better than leaving them struggling until the ACM could take over. If it isn't possible is there someone else willing to fill in until a permanent one can be found? The Scoutreach program sounds like a great avenue (I haven't used it). 2. Regarding those two checks from the CO. You need to ask the CO who those two checks were written out to and have they cleared. That should get you started in finding them and point you to a resolution. Let's hope they really are lost. 3. Change banks. Any bank that does not verify a two signature account shouldn't be used. The fact that there is only one line shouldn't be the problem. Depending on the institution, two signatures can be on one line. It's the verification that is important. 4. Does your committee feel comfortable with this person in any role? If not, leaving that person in place just because there isn't anyone else that will step in immediately could be worse for the unit in the long run. CMJ

That is very unfortunate. However, maybe not as much as it may seem on the surface. While it seems as if your particular Pack is having to fold the fact that there are other Packs in the area that are doing well enough to sustain themselves provides an avenue for you and other boys in your Pack to continue in scouting. No one likes to see a Unit fold, but in the end it may be better for you and your son to transfer (as is now apparently necessary). It will certainly be less stress and work for you as a leader. As far as the lack of help you received from council, I can't say that is unexpected. Their hands-off approach often leads to them taking the easy road rather than the difficult one. As sad as that may be. Good luck and keep on Scouting! CMJ

I received in the mail the other day an envelope from Council. This envelope contained a congratulatory note along with a ribbon for our Pack flag recognizing our Pack as a Quality unit. Woo Hoo! What an accomplishment! Way to go Scou... WHAT!?!? Just hold on a second! We didn't get Quality unit. We weren't even close on requirment #1, Training. And we didn't have an ASM last year so can't count #2. After inquiring with the DE I determined from the explanation that the coverage period for QU 2005 ended at the time of our recharter in Feb 05. We didn't meet requirement #1 until just recently and didn't meet #2 until Sep 05. This issue with our Quality Unit award is on the heals of a question from the District regarding whether or not we wanted to have our graduating Webelos transfer, on paper only, to the Troop before the end of the current calendar year. They could physically remain with the Pack until they crossed over at Blue & Gold in Feb. We declined. I know what I am going to do. What would you do? CMJ

DITTO!

Seed, you are on the right train of thought. Ideally Den Leaders only lead their dens and are a separate entity from the committee. That is, if you want to go by the book. In reality, bbng and ScoutNut are right on the mark. Good luck!

Well, I am at 8 yrs as a registered leader. My wife is at 6. I don't think I can that it has been a completely positive experience on our marriage. My wife and I tend to see things from opposite sides at times. As CC and CM I often had to handle issues more delicately than she would like me to. But in the end we both realize what a positive influence we are having on our three boys and all other boys in our pack. cubbingcarol put it very well - "always something to talk or argue about" Jerry

Newbie DL, that list is from someone who apparently had a bad experience from scouting and didn't desire to try to make it better.

A movie that incorporates leadership? 12 O'clock High w/Gregory Peck. None better.

I brought this up at my last Pack Committee meeting. Like you, e-mail is much easier and I simply don't have the time to make 20 phone calls - even if I did want to! E-mail is widely accepted in my unit as the primary means of communication. However, there are always a few that refuse. Similar reasons as you mentioned. But I pretty much laid it out as the ONLY means that I communicate and if you don't read/respond you will be left out. I have one leader out of about 25 that doesn't have e-mail but the ADL does so it works out. Response is not perfect but good. I told them that I will call them if they let me know if their e-mail is down or if I need an immediate (2-3 days) response. I may be pushing it here but I really see no reason that someone can't check their e-mail at least every other day. I told my committe that if they don't get at least one e-mail a week from me (it's usually more like 2-3) then check the obituaries because I am probably dead. A solution to the spam or having to sort through to find the Scout related e-mail - create an internet account (yahoo, hotmail, etc) specifically for scouts. Yahoo does a great job of filtering out spam.

Uh, (meekly raising my hand within the circle of others), my name is Jerry and I too have the problem with not being able to say 'no'. It all started innocently enough with being a simple helper at my son's den meetings. It was just one craft the first time. Really it was. But the addiction just spread so quickly. Soon, a single craft wasn't enough. I needed more. Next thing I knew I was a DL, then CC, Trainer, CM, involved with other unit, District roles - I never knew it could get so serious. They always told me it would make me feel better. That it really wasn't the time but the experience. The support of my wife, while admirable and good intentioned, really only added to the rapid spreading of the sickness. Because the more she does to help me out the more time that provides me to say 'yes' to something else. My name is Jerry, and I too have a problem with not being able to say 'no'. (isn't there a patch I can put on my arm or a pill I can swallow that will help?) (This message has been edited by Cubmaster Jerry)

That is awesome! Congrats on your efforts!

SP, I think this is a great idea as well. However, not to put a damper on your enthusiasm and initiative, I hope that this produces much better results than I have witnessed. My council does some similar mid-year recruiting techniques. Like bbng's experience, usually only the recruiter got something. They usually got a patch but sometimes they got a pair of tickets to a local professional sporting event or other 'big' item. One year all who recruited were put into a drawing to win one of a number of bicycles. I don't know how successful those have been. But the problems I have witnessed aren't with the program itself but with the implementation at the unit level. Unless the unit has someone dedicated to recruiting, the CC usually puts the info "on the table" at the Committee meeting. It would then be up to the DLs to pass it on to the boys. This usually turns another great recruiting tool into one that just goes by the wayside because the implementation is placed on the shoulders of the Unit and those at the Unit don't normally have the same enthusiasm for recruiting as those at the District level. I realize that you, as the District Membership Chair, can't go to every unit to promote and implement but I would tend to believe that few at the unit would want to put much effort into a mid-year recruitment drive. For one thing it would put much more burden on the DL to add a boy mid-year and work to catch them up. Maybe mid-year visits to school by District-level folks as they do for School Night For Scouting preparation in Sep. There are, of course, a slew of opportunities for the Pack to implement such fine mid-year recruiting programs as yours, but they usually get put on the back burner behind other Pack event/agenda items that need attention. Promoting it at Committee meeting would just add another (to the 344,452) items already on our agenda. Taking time at the Pack meeting would add on to my already 1+ hr program. I realize that, in the end, these are excuses but it is probably close to reality. I really do hope this is successful. Please keep us updated. Recruiting (along with Training) is one of my keen interests as a leader. I am always looking for new ways to get boys into the program and keep them there. Jerry

A PT breakout session at RT. What a great idea!

Lisabob, thanks for clarifying that. I certainly see your point. 10-15 patches per boy per pack meeting! That IS quite excessive. I can't even imagine what we would give 10-15 patches for in a single month. Some boys have difficulty recalling what they did for the rank badge much less 'extra' activities. Parents pay for all belt loops in my Pack. But you bring up a good point that with the current version of the Webelos book, some belt loops are now required. My Pack has only recently begun paying for more than just the rank badge itself. Financial issues a few years ago led the leaders then to force parents to pay for much more than the leaders would have liked them to. Slowly, the financial standing and the comfort level of those leaders who rescued the Pack have gotten better to the point that we pay for pretty much everything except the belt loops and associated pins.

Well, I was lucky. I happened to have a fantastic new Tiger Leader who offered to step up and take the Pack Trainer responsibilities from me when they were offered. She is equally fantastic in this role and I think that our Pack will meet the Quality Unit requirement for trained leaders for the first time in quite a few years because of her effort. As far as the job description for the Pack Trainer, I instilled in her the need to inform leaders of all opportunities, track the progress of all leaders, push on a constant basis the requirements for training knots (don't forget your four roundtables!), and make sure council has current information (why is that always a problem!) She also works with me during our new leader orientation sessions. I am always fearful that she will overwhelm a new leader with all of the info she passes out but more is usually better than less! She also helps coordinate car pooling with those who are going to training. We have about 25 registered leaders and when one wishes to attend a training session, they go through her and she puts them in contact with each other. Don't know how much of that jives with the 'official' job description but doing those things made my tenure as Pack Trainer successful as it is her's. What is she doing at the District level? Well, I have just recently stepped up myself to be a part of the District Training staff and have asked her to come with me. The county that our unit (and others) belong in is on the fringe of our geographically large District. It takes us about 30 min to drive to Leader training and more than an hour to drive to Pow Wow and U of Scouting sessions. The majority of our District's training sessions are split and scheduled on weeknights, usually ending past 9p.m. New Leader Essentials one night, Specific another, etc. As you can imagine, that plays a big part in getting our leaders trained. She (hopefully) and I will be members of the District training staff that will bring Leader training sessions closer to our area. Jerry

On second thought I will apologize. I just want to make sure I don't sound like a jerk. Because I don't mean to be. Jerry

Well, I am not sure I do owe you an apology as no harm was meant. But I was certainly misunderstood - my fault. My 'divide properly' comment wasn't a slap in your or your committe's face. It was merely a (apparently) weak attempt at a reason for not wanting to prorate dues - something that both you and I feel would be beneficial and easy to implement. However, you never mentioned that your Pack did prorate even for new scouts. So to charge full fees for them (which was assumed based on the info you provided) and then charge full fees for W2 just before they graduate just didn't add up. Additionally, I find it difficult to understand (if I do correctly) that your Pack charges the full $75 fee to be paid by all W2 in December for a mere 3 or 4 months of program. Don't YOU as a parent find that difficult to swallow? I can certainly respect any decision that a committee makes as I am sure very few are made without extended discussions and reasonings. But, again, what is the reason for your Pack not prorating W2 fees? If it is simply to support the school use fees and other financial obligations that the Pack has then that is not fair to those W2s who aren't getting their money's worth, so to speak. My Pack is in the same fiscal situation that yours is in. And we do the same thing that you do - prorate for new scouts and charge full fees in Feb (our recharter is 1 Mar). However, because of the timing, we don't charge W2s anything at all after they recharter during their W1 year. Our W2s graduate at B&G and, with the fee payment during their W1 year, are essentially paid up through graduation. With 130 sets of parents, you can bet that we would have more than our share of irate parents if we wished to charge full rate for a partial year. We do have a number of 'problem' parents. One boy is on his third den THIS YEAR due to 'conflicts'. I had to split another den this past September because a parent was overbearing and causing friction with the leader. Her son and two others were buddies so I couldn't just move him alone. She is now a leader of her own den. I have another den leader that continually blames other leaders for her issues with scheduling, activity locations, etc. And on, and on. From my reading of your posts, it did seem to be about this parent. You mention in your first post that "This is not a matter of money or we would offer a scholarship - she is just a difficult parent.", in your 2nd post "...she is really difficult to work with." It's really the mom that has problems." and 3rd post "Once we have AOL we won't have to deal with this woman again." Apparently no other W2 parent had ever openly defied paying your Pack's full fee rate for a quarter of a program year. Because she is a legitimate problem parent, when she finally presented a legitimate complaint, I am sure the "Here we go again" comments were heard at committee meeting and her issue probably wasn't really considered. Since timing of your recharter and graduation isn't in sync, why not just have the Pack pay the $10 to recharter to get W2s through to graduation? If the dues are averaged accurately, then the additional program benefit that a W2 may get for those few months would have already been paid through their previous fee payments. Jerry

As much as I enjoy working one on one with the boys, I too was glad to "graduate" from DL. No one will ever convince me that the DL is not the most important and hardest working position in the Pack.

Oh, and to answer your question of whether or not you can quit mid year. No, you can't. We won't let you. Jerry

As someone mentioned, your focus as CM is the boys. If they leave the Pack meeting without smiling and laughing, that is YOUR problem to solve. If you take the Pack on a hike and get lost, then that is YOUR problem to solve. "I am tired of having to do everything". That is also YOUR problem to solve. It is easy to say 'find parents to help' and 'delegate to others' but if you are truly short on Committee help, then you may have to gather the parents and lay it on the line. Quitting only hurts the boys. And besides, it is only November. Rome wasn't built in a day nor can an errant Pack be righted in just a few months. I have always said that the Cubmaster is the coolest job in the Pack. Make it so!

With the info here, if I were a parent in this Pack I would have some real problems as well. Things for you to think about: 1. Same question as ScoutNut had, What do you charge for new scouts in Sep? If you charge anything, the math doesn't add up at all (with the info I read). 2. "Not about the money." No, it seems it is more about the mother. Registration is $10. As others noted, it seems you are preventing this boy from getting his AOL because of his mother. There is no need for you to collect anything more than the $10 as he isn't participating beyond Jan anyway. He's done. except for the AOL ceremony. The decision to not prorate is the committee's and one that has to be abided by. But as treasurer, you can surely see the problem that causes. What reason is given for not wanting to do it? Inability to divide properly? CM Jerry

I can't tell you how much we spend per month, but per year, my Pack spends about $36 per boy. This includes rank badges, arrow points, webelos pins, 3 summer activity patches and about six other special activity patches (PWD, SFF, etc). The parents must buy all belt loops and any other extra patches earned that don't go toward advancemnt, such as World Conservation, etc. Other things such as PWD trophies and AOL career arrows are, of course paid for by the Pack. Just to comment on Lisabob's comment on the potential for the boys to develop a competitive nature when it comes to patches. Do you really think that the fact that they get a patch takes away from the experience? While that may be some of the motivation for attending the activity, I would bet that in the end, the boy gets much more out of it than a patch. And, by giving a patch, you may get more to attend.

How do you create interest with the parents to get involved? It's easy to get the parents interest with an exciting program. Everyone loves a good show. What you want is to get them active. For that, you need to start small. Ask parents to help out on a small level. Help plan this or work an hour at that. Remember, if they didn't volunteer (initially) so you don't want to try to put the whole program in their lap. How do you create excitement with the leaders about scouting? When I first came on board in my Pack, one of my DLs was presented to me as "difficult". She hardly steps up to volunteer and when she does, the CC had to constantly follow up to make sure it is done. From my perspective being a DL seems like a job to her. This year I started implementing and promoting things to enhance the program. Den Flags, Cubmaster awards to be given to dens for certain accomplishments, skits, songs, and ceremonies at Pack meetings (apparently pre-CM Jerry Pack meetings tended to be a bit dry). Well, this particular DL isn't necessarily the poster child for Scout Leadership but she now attends all committee meetings, takes a greater role in the program and gets excited about the program. And she isn't difficult at all. "Make it fun, they will come" What do you do to create comrodery with the adults leaders? I will chime in with others on this one. A leader night out has been successful in the units I have been in. The fishing trips are a great example but make sure the event is enticing to everyone. Go to a ballgame, or other event. District Dinners, while offically a scouting event often turn into a non-scouting event after all of the ruffles and flourishes are completed, depending on your district. We would often schedule our own pack dinner at a local resturant (mexican food, margaritas, and leaders in need of stress relief are a good combination!) You won't get every one to attend. And maybe the first one may have minimal attendance. But good times attract good crowds.(This message has been edited by Cubmaster Jerry)

Can I assume that you mean to make a distinction between 'most important' and ones you 'need'. Of course we need all that EagleInKY mentioned and probably a few more. However, I have found that there are a few that, when outstanding people are in place, the unit excels. Committee Chair - An obvious one. Someone who is a good organizer and communicator. Secretary - Invaluable. Right now, I have the best. Treasurer - Another obvious one. Sometimes the 'new math' is tricky for some people.