CricketEagle

Basement, I can only guess by the tone of your posting that you did not read, or did not get the intent of my original posting. To be direct, you don't know me, it sounds as if you are comparing me to some bad experiences you may have had. I am not looking for an "Opt Out", but at most a "Test-Out". I am willing to stand up and prove that I have the skills. If I could even find the course time that I could work around my schedule and 2 unit schedules I would. Also, keep in mind I have some bigger fish to fry at the moment with involvement in two units and simply trying to stay employed, etc. I don't have much more time to given other than the 30+ days a year I already do. To make this even more clear, once again I am PRO-training, but this one I have to question given the time I have at the moment. My question related to this course and re-chartering. Just finding the training in a "rural" council is an issue.

Eagle92, Thanks, That was good information. It looks as if a formal "TEST-out" option is in the works. It at least is a reasonable solution.

Fred, no offense taken. I live in a council and district that has a little reputation of adding there own "special" twists on national rules. That is why I am hoping someone could quote the sources. As far as I see, there is nothing from National about this effecting rechartering. That was my more urgent concern. Has anyone seen anything like this? Again I am pro-training. I do it all the time for work. Many times I have to repeat the same training 3 and 4 + times a year as I enter different client's facilities. But I will be the first first to tell you you can only drink so much coffee and stay awake while the latest safety guy tells you how to climb a ladder. HOWEVER, at least in that case I get paid to sit around. Another Eagle I know recently took the course. His comments were that it was OK, but the only good knowledge he came back with was how work a new stove. I am sure there is more to it. But he said the course was focus on basic scout skills (not patrol methods etc). I will get around to this eventually, but when I have time. I still value the Wilderness First Aid higher over IOLS.

Fred, I don't want this discussion to become comments on skill training versus training in the "patrol method". I am all for the patrol method as long as the adults provided proper coaching to the youths. We all could go on and on on that topic. Eagle92's answer I fully understand seeing many other adults. However, not allowing some sort of test out is like teaching to the "lowest" common denominator. That is a good way to burn out adults. JayK's answer was more of what I was hoping to see. Some training sources quoted. Anymore out there with similar info?

Introduction to Outdoor Leadership Skills Versus Wilderness First Aid: Please read my whole posting: I am hoping that I can receive some thoughtful, clear responses. There was a very similar posting recently. I am more concerned with the effect on re-chartering and meaningful training. In looking over the newer Scoutmaster requirements, I am seeing some councils requiring the Intro to Outdoor Leadership skills class. I also had seen a few that even appear to go so far to say that you may not be allowed to re-charter without this. My time is valuable. I can clearly understand a rational requirement for something like Wilderness First Aid. (Nope, that is not required, YET, but I believe that would be a meaningful requirement). I am a pro-training person. Especially so when there are clear safety issues at heart. I do this all the time in my paying job. But this one I am having a hard time swallowing. I even went to our district and asked if there was a Test-Out option as a few councils in our state allow. I was bluntly told no and that our council would not allow that. Not sure if that was someones personal opinion, or a real council policy as our district is known to be quirky. As I reviewed my Guide to Safe Scouting, and the new Local and National Tour Plans, I see not mention of this being an official requirement. I have a sneaking feeling I am being put on the path to chase a Trained patch, not something that would be helpful to our troop and the boys. Yes, I do have all the other required training plus a bunch more. Any body out there having similar experiences? Or that can shed some light on this? Making an old Eagle and former Army NCO demonstrate square knots, start fires and disinfect water does not pass the smell test. Especially when I am asked to spend 2 days doing it. I really feel like I am dealing with bureaucrats who just want to check off a box, not improve a program.

I am in a similiar situation. Except I have multiple sons in on the Troop and Pack level. I am a den leader in the pack and a ASM in the troop. Someday your son will fully understand and appreciate what you have done...but I completely understand as the boys get older not wanting to be a leaders son. The trick that at least three sets of parents in our troop level use is to pick events to "Not show up at". ie the leader/parent does not show up, so the leader's son gets a chance to be just another one of the boys. In other words, let them goof off and screw up sometimes. It helps the boys to decompress.

Wow, part of me is surprised by this series of posts, saddly part of me is not. Ultimately there are boys being cheated of a good experience. I shame as Wilderness Survival is good starter MB. 1. Young starting scouts being cheated out of earning a merit badge the correct way...BUT more importantly missing out on the life skill of reading the tasks and working through the list. It sounds silly, but I know many adults who can't handle that. 2. Young 14 year old MB councilors...believe it or not, I think many younger scouts could properly do teach the Wilderness Survival MB...Provided they are mentored by adults..The ability to teach is an even bigger life skill. One that I look for hard when when interviewing potential employees. The ability to share knowledge makes all of us better. I won't hire those who can't or won't share knowledge. The young councilors in this case may have also been cheated. 3. Merit Badge books - Yep, I still have my 70's Wilderness survivial MB book. When my young son started scouts, I went out and got a new one last year. In the "internet" age some other scouts and parents looked at me like I was nuts. I have not read much of the new Wilderness Survival book, but looking that the requirements to reads more like "Wilderness Emergency Prepardness"...(I remember actually have to set deadfalls, then being given some meat to cut on a stone)..Leave no trace ended that. (shame, taken too far) 4. I am still "New" to scouting in this decade, but I will say the cooking MB book impressed me. It was full of decent information. Hiking also looked pretty good.

Wow, has this posting really gone off track. The original topic has more to do with adults saying "cannots" and taking boy led to an extreme. (That is without given the boys support and the chance on smaller tasks first.) Obviously this topic is a hot one and brings up strong reactions from many. Maybe we should close the discussion and open another one based simply on the methods of scouting? Although, I bet if I look around some I would find that topic over and over.

BP, yes I caught the humor in OGE's comments. At least he left out any sens-o-ring jokes. However I am not sure you caught how young a group we have. OGE is correct that many of these youths are used to having everything handed to them. That will not change overnight and having what few "older" boys teach the younger boys the basic "brownsea skills" is the starting point that has been chosen. That is the small events we have chosen for the older boys to work at organizing. Keep in mind even our older boys are still quite young. 13's for most. It is a start. Now back to the original point of my posting: >Step one: Boys mention the might like to try white water canoeing or rafting in a few years. So I agree to look into it if it is even possible. > Road Block one: Committee member objects saying "cannots" no way, scouts not allowed (I am over generalizing here, but that is the attitude). > Step 2: I look into this further: I find some references in scouting guides saying it is ok. providing special training taken etc. > Road Block two: finding the training...not easy. > step three: I go back and re-read the scouting guides (safety afloat). Further down the page it clearly says that the Troop can deligate the expertise needed by hiring a professional guide etc. > Step four: going back to the committee politely with the "real" language. Then I can go back to the scouts. Start talking and "guide" them into a series of small steps they can execute. That way, they may safely take a white water trip next year or later. The goal of the "big trip" should help the boys take the planning part more seriously. There is a great deal they can learn by that process. Back to the adults saying "cannots". I should have known better. There is always a way

BP, your definition of guidance and mine are the same. It is the same methods I use in scouts and at work. I rarely even say much during the troop meetings. I speak mostly to the SPL and PL's before and after meetings. Word of encouragement, what went well etc. Trying only step in when there a behavior problem the old boys can't quite handle. To that end both the old and younger boys need to know that there are adults that support them on doing the "big" things. Not right way hit them up with a list of "cannots", but rather present things a list of smaller tasks they can chip away at. E92, gets dynamic well this well, a very old troop currently rebuilding. Down to as few as 8 boys at meetings. Now flush with recruiting success and up to nearly 30. I am greatful for the problems we have.

Eamonn, I am not sure how you guys got an issue of trust out of this. I have had more than my share of outmeal over and over and ramen noodles. I trust that the boys can do more "physically" than most people give them credit for. (given the proper training and support). I also trust that can plan run things better than most people give them credit for. (again given proper training and support). as I wrote to OGE. "PART of the dull program was an over emphasis on having the boys plan with out guidance or inspiration. The "cannot do" elements also squashed some of the inspiration".. The key phrase was "with out guidance or inspiration". Some training has been given in this case, but the follow up support was not. So we have to back up and try again. During this time, we still need to provide a good program.

Eadgledad, I am not sure if you a writing to me, or to the posters in the forum as a whole. As this posting is way off topic. On the boy led level: Keep in mind I am part of a very young troop. Yes we have 2 boys going to NYLT this summer as we did last year (only one bothered to show up). However, when they got back to the troop, to my knowledge no major effort was done to include them in planning. To that end, the adult leadership did not work much with those boys and teach them planning. (we had our own leadership crisis at the same time). So we need to back up and start over. Some of the committe feel the boys should be able to plan 100% on there own already, but they never provided the intermeadiate steps. So the "training" aspect did not happen on the troop level. The new SM and ASM are trying to fix this now via the PLC. We are starting with them planning the smaller outings: But for now we are back to having them plan "parts" of outings with guidance while they adapt to the 14 eleven year olds in the troop. The 13 year olds are still adjusting to the concept that they are in charge. We only have 1 boy that can drive a car who does not show up much OGE: You are on the right track to understanding. PART of the dull program was an over emphasis on having the boys plan with out guidance or inspiration. The "cannot do" elements also squashed some of the inspiration. FYI I found the training needed 6 hours away in WV.

Old Grey and Basement: It sounds as if I not explained myself well on this: Two issues here (competing forces): Boy Led (but adult guided): The boys have not had that "Intermeaditate" step of seeing an adult or older scout plan something from start to finish. They are still in the stage of needing someone to shell out a program to teach them leadership skills. Our troop is current very heavy on the younger scouts. Very few older boys. In the new fancy scout language they are still in the E and D phases of teaching them "planning". (Explain and Demonstrate of EDGE, with some guiding going on). Yes it take at more than a year to put together a program, but it is my job and I am happy to do that. 18 months ahead is my normal calender time frame. My frustration with that is locating the "training" and it's timing. Back to the scouts: It is painfull to watch them "muddle", but we have to step in once in a while to give them some guidance. (There has been recent improvement with the boys on that. As they are adjusting to more than a dozen incoming new scouts, keeping them occupied is a task). However, I can't let the older boys "muddle" too much as there needs to be a solid program for the younger scouts. It is even harder to allow them to muddle when new parents witness this and don't understand the process going on. (I'll handle the parents. As it is an education for them as well). Part of the learning process for the older boys is to "allow" them the fail once in a while. It is a good learning tool. However that failure should not effect the overall program the young boys see. I have some committe forces that want a nearly 100% boy led troop. (Personally I think that is a near fiction). That might work for a while, but I am not sure of it. The troop tried that for a while, but is now pulling back some. The SM and ASM's who have to deal with this are the forces pushing to a middle of the road solution as we see the effects...The same forces that want the nearly 100% boy led are also the "You can't do that crowd". That 100% they want the boys to take over much of of the planning. THIS INCLUDES ALMOST NO ASSITANCE IN PLANNING. Sorry for the caps. But again, the "older" boys still are in the explain and demonstrate phase. Most older boys here are 13 to 14 year olds. So now I am way off my original topic.

Basementdweller, I am with you. Although I would like to include the boys in "SOME" aspects of the planning, it often is above thier skill levels. Yes, I am struggling with a committee member who thinks a boy led troop means that boys should do the majority of the planning. I am from the school that the adults set up the program, and then let the boys lead individual tasks. Otherwise nothing gets done. Herding cats is the best phrase. Again when they get to the higher ranks, I expect them to be able to do more of the planning like gathering costs, some of the communication. (I would expect more if they were Eagles, but they are mostly 1st class) However here is a classic problem I am having: The boys mentioned they would like to do some Whitewater. I did as a boy and in my 20's. I have asked them to go through the various scout safety guides so they understand the process and the requirements. Although I am really doing that seperately to back them up. They don't have to know that. It is too much for them to plan on there own. As it takes a series of trips to get up to speed on the skills needed. It is more of a year long program that needs to be laid out to do such a trip. I spend several hours last night trying to locate the needed classes for myself, but had to give up when the storms came through. I am even searching in a 4 state area. Darn hard to find that training to satisfy BSA rules. Keep in mind here I am a person who has hundred of miles Whitewater canoeing and rafting. It has been years, and I am willing to do the training. But I have to locate it and then find the time. The next step is dealing with the one committe member that thinks I should be doing no planning. It should be up to the boys.

Beavah nailed it regarding the regulations. The cross references in BSA and all the various sources cited make my head spin. I deal with government regulations each day (OSHA, MSHA, multiple states, and a slew of companies). I can usually find the answer to questions in those regulations fairly fast. I am a by the book person when it comes to safety, but that book better be clearly written and make sense. (Note here, I will admit that you would be amazed at the stupid things adults do to violate safety rules on a daily basis) But in my mostly rural council, just try and find a paddle craft safety class. The neighboring big city council only does these classes once a year. They always happen at the same time I go with the scouts to camp! In looking hard at the paddle craft classes, there is NOTHING new here. It is the same basic common sense pre-trip training my scoutmasters gave to me as a boy. They gave us hours of training before sticking us in a canoe on the river. However, some one felt it was necessary to require this to be taught and administered by BSA...I smell lawyer stuff here. I wonder who screwed up and BSA felt required to write a new regulation. I will overcome this all, but in the meantime. Grrrrrr..(Now back to pushing paper for summer camp)

Fscouter said: "Every program "rule" item you listed did not come from Scouting. Misguided and misinformed adults abound. You separate truth from misinformation by asking for the written documentaion that supports the statement" Twocubdad said" "Your standard response to this stuff needs to be, "can you show me where that policy is written?"" Thanks, and yes I have gone that route before with some success. But it is exhausting to prove that a imaginary "rule" does not exist. I have often discovered that the people "quoting" rules never actually read them. It is often a control issue, or someone's personal opinion. I only wish there was a simple piece of paper I could use as an answer

New program issues Hi all, I am a modestly older Eagle who recently joined a troop as my son progresses through the program. My family has been involved in scouting on and off since the 1940s. I openly admit I come from the perspective of the old school. I am trying to play by the new program rules, but at times things parts of it leave me flabbergasted. I have been struggling with aspects of the new program, or often newer leaders interpretations of rules and guidelines: I have observed what I call the YOU CANT DO THAT ATTIDUDE of some adults in the program. I dont think this is a deliberate attitude. It is a result of ignorance, over protection and often the leaders own inexperience with the outdoors. I think this attitude often results in a DULL program. A dull program means losing scouts. Examples I have come across or had said to me by adults (some paraphrasing here): leave no trace: means catch and release fishing only Huh? When did simple back country cleanliness and courtesy come to mean we cant eat what we catch. Wasnt that part of BPs original method? Yes conservation based fishing has it's part, but that does not mean abstaining from eating some of what we catch You cant take Webelos swimming, Webelos cant do a 3 mile hike. Since when? Did anyone ever bother to read the rules? Swimming is not that hard to do especially in a guarded pool (yes I did the training, posted guards etc). Boys want to go out in the woods, get dirty. This is what attracts the boys and gets them into scouting. Without this, we are just babysitting. Tenderfoots, 2nd and 1st class should not work on Merit badges. Okay, I agree they should not work on personal finance merit badge, but what about first aid, cooking, hiking and camping? Key BP program based merit badges. I think this attitude sets the boys back a full year or more. A few carefully placed merit badges gives the boys a since of accomplishment and a taste for future work. To that end, the Guide to Safe Scouting needs to be totally redone into a CAN DO Guide. Each subject should be simple with a clear A, B, C item list. The list should include what training and were to get it if needed. This would also help to cut down on the differing answers I have had from different councils and districts. Just my 2 cents,anyone care to add to this? Maybe we can get a nickel?

Thank you to my old scout leaders! As a newbee to this forum, let me start by thanking my old scout leaders when I was a boy. They made all the difference. Thank You to my parents and grandparents: who let me go on trips, get, wet, dirty, bug bitten, sun burned and tired. Thank You to my old Scoutleaders: who set up a program that I can only now appreciate and admire. They made all the difference. The program they set up years ago produced a lot of good young men and more than their fair share of Eagles. Only now can I understand the time they put in all of us. They produced a crop of military academy grads, this former enlisted man, a professional scouter, and some decent parents. They believed that boys could do almost anything given a chance and a little training: Even that 20 mile hike and whitewater canoeing. Thank you to the old scoutmaster, who set me straight on my first summer camp. I can still smell his cherry pipe tobacco 30 plus years later. Thank you to the adults, who gave 14 year old boy the map and let him lead the troop through a snow field in the Rockies. Thank you to the scout camp, that gave this boy his first job anyway from home. Thank you to the friends I made along the way. They helped get me through college and beyond. Thank you to my wife: She lets me spend all my time with our sons in Cubs and Scouts. (a 3rd generation scouter, trying to work on the 4th)