CricketEagle

I have not read them all, but I did open 4 or 5 from our local area. Generally I saw that people did care, some went so far to say that parents did no want to go to the police. None of this is good in the light of 2012 standards, but compared to 1980's and back, there was some effort. Back then we would not even see an underwear commercial on TV, now we have Cialis and Viagra over and over on TV. There appears to have been more of an effort than my local diocese put forth with a few of our terible parish priests. Thank God I was never alone with them. Having been involved in the last few years to deny adult memberships twice I now how hard this can be. Both of my problem cases were mental health issues. Darn tricky to document, legally it leaves you scared to death. Both cases had to accept an application just to have grounds to research what several of us knew anyway. BSA really has limited power over these things, the charted organizing has much more. We are not perfect. It is all about the scouts, but the vast majority of us always have tried our best and always will. I am not dismissing this, but there is no perspective. I am sure the lawyers are already trying to contact scouts in all the former units cited in these files. Blood in the water.

finally a topic and crisis I can sink my teeth into! There has to be a thread out here some where on the proper patrol method of cooking bacon ;-)

Being a new bee here, I sat around for months and did not post. Watching, reading, thinking. You can call it lurking if you want. I call it keeping my mouth shut until I have something to add. I have written more than a few postings, only to delete them. We new bees need to have a chance to make our mistakes, and sometimes vent. This is a good place to do it. This forum overall has been great. It helped me though some extremely difficult times when I thought I would abandon scouting. Here I saw other people facing similar problems. If BSA created another guide it would be turn into another set of rules that people misquote or misinterpret to there own ends. My guide to Scouting FAQwould start off with something simple. 1. Even young GOOD Scouts can at times be odd, cranky, and general pains, eventually they get over it and grow up. a. But it takes an adult/parent leader to really screw things up, often they are the first ones to quote rules without understanding. 2. Your 2nd hardest job will be to let the scouts screw up a little and learn by it (safely). a. Your hardest job will be to get parents to back off and let them screw up. 3. Learn how to push the limit SAFELY. The guide to safe scouting almost never says NO, but it does tell you what basics you need to do the job. But this is another thread, that I am sure has already been discussed over and over. ;-)

I can appreciate your position, but in my experience the lively conversations here reflect many folks true feelings on scouting, for good or bad. Now I do agree that a few may be a bit more vocal on this board than they may be in person. A few write or imply things that I at times find down-right offensive..Out of my years of being a youth and an adult in scouting, I have had the pleasure of meeting a great deal of good peopleand a few folks that are not truly in it for the boys. (Being polite here)..I would say the same for this group. We are an imperfect organization, dealing with imperfect boys and ADULTS. Striving for perfect ideals. The vast majority are good decent folks..a few are more imperfect than others. It is up to you to pick through the junk and find the gems. I have learned a lot on this site.most of it good.. Please stay, I have learned a great deal here even when I am just lurking.what you do with that is up to you

Brew, my advice would be to sit back for a few months and proceed with caution. Yes the ideal is to have the boys layout many of the events. However if you are dealing with a very young troop, a troop rebuilding, or a troop trying to expand the boys scouting experience in may not be practical to leave it all up to the scouts at this point. In a few years, it should be a different story. However, at a minimum the boys wishes for 3 or 4 campouts. The other outdoor events may need to be selected by adults and geared toward advancement/boy leadership development etc. A brand new group of boys may not be able to see that far ahead. This should be a temporary situation.

Beavah wrote: "Yah, not to put to fine a point on it, Cricket, but why in the blazes didn't yeh tell the poor man?" My answer, I did. The leader still did not catch on, nor understand. The concept that a boy can't move fingers easily is hard to grasp for some. Some folks just are not as well adjusted to work the variety of boys we know deal with. Now a leader does not have to be "cuddley" with each boy. But this issue was not very respectful from the scouts point of view. This Scouter in this case has a rather narrow mind set and narrow experience. Bottom line for my son and others, he has to find a way around his problems in order to succeed. Some folks just have a tougher road than others. Others have far worse problems to deal with. Even if it is in writing, I was suprised to find out that I was the only adult who bothered to read the full medical forms that the scouts turn in. Several in our unit have mild disabilities that no one paid attention to (ADD/ADHD/Mild learning/major family issues/Emotional issues). Now most these problems the boys will out grow given time. These are not issues that I expect the scouts/scout leadership to be aware of. However,as an adult I do work with the parents/scouts to try and group the boys or pick MBs that set them up for success the first year or two. (Avoid writing MB's for scouts that struggle at that, they will get to those soon enough). That is something that should be in SM training, even a one hour course on "learning" styles would be good.

Like "Ltfightr", I also have a son with fine motor skill problems, tying those small shoe strings is a real issue. He does it himself, but it is painful to watch. Knots with big rope are fine. It effects his speach and entire learning style. I recently had a scout leader berate him for his very poor hand writing. Not good, not good at all. Not very scout like from an adult. I am firm with him on that subject as he has to learn a way around his problems. I am not sure the scout leader even caught on that that he was dealing with a boy with a mild disability. But I can absolute say that he is one of the first to have his tent up, pack his pack and start doing the scout things.

Ah, Here we go with the methods argument. Not sure how we got to there from trailers, but I know the attitudes. Bottom line, the trailer has been more trouble than it is worth. I did not simplify logistics as we are now 100% dependant on the guys with the hitches. It almost came down to the point that people could not imagine even having a campout without a trailer. Although the quartermaster caught on quick, the less gear that went out, the less gear that had to be cleaned. Also, can you afford the maintenance on a trailer? How much do the tags cost? I dont care which side you are on: Patrol Method or Troop based. What I care is that the scouts learn to do it themselves. That includes planning. Having everything in the trailer defeats that purpose. Having a space limitation forces the boys to be creative and judge if things are really necessary. Let qualify my statements: Troop of around 40 boys. Most trips within 2 hour drive. There is a core of about 8 parents who do the heavy lifting and make sure boys get to campouts. We have two trailers: one very small, one quite large walk in type. NICE WEATHER campouts have 30 boys, maybe 12 to 15 adults. (we would prefer less adults, but are grateful for the problems we have, we would be happier if we could lose a few cub-scouty type helicopter parents, we spend more time dealing with them than the scouts) BAD WEATHER, maybe 22 boys, 4 adults that stay, a few others drive boys out and leave. (tend to lose parents who sleep on cots) Most the time, we have two or three adults with min-vans, or at least one 4 seat truck. Most the campouts we can do without the trailer, provided we can jam gear into one of those 7 seat minivans. My objection is that it appears to me that regardless of the trailer size it gets filled to the brim. It is supposed to make life easier because you have room for everything! But what did we teach the boys? Basically to pack everything. Last week I looked down at the cleaning gear..3 special tubsI suddenly remembered when I was a scoutwe first cleaned our big cook pots as best as we could, then used them as wash basins to do the rest of the dishes With those 3 special tubs we have literally brought the kitchen sink! Dont even get me going on Dutch ovens. Patrol boxes are the worst. We can do most campouts with out a trailer, but it takes more thought. However, clean up is much easier with less gear.

A luxury that is perceived as an absolute need; Unless you need it for storage, stay away from itthis is a slippery slope Step one, Troop would like to get a trailer to help haul gear. Step two, Troop packs all the gear they have and some, then some more into trailer. Step three, Find/beg people with hitches to pull trailer Step four, Every one forgets how to pack for a trip, (Patrol boxes are not needed on most trips)things like dinning flys become a necessity for a two night campout, 4 dutch ovens. Step 4aboys and adults get lazy, do not plan for campouts..instead grab everything..end up with 3 stoves, 10 pots in each campout. Step five, guy with trailer hitch gets tired of doing it, beg a new guy. Step six, now that you have so much gear, it takes you 3 hours to set up camp Step seven, boys are not out doing things because they are stuck setting up camp. Step Eightbecome the troop that might as well go camping at the KOA. Final step..SM finally gets ticked.starts to force people to leave the trailer at home.people grumblea few slowly begin to realizehey I can real fit a few tents in my carhey we can use real wood instead of charcoalHey, I can leave my gas guzzling dually at home. Hey the boys can actually think about the pots they need rather than take the patrol box.

Maybe a sign of the times, as I am looking at all these "instant" merit badges now for summer camp, I can't help but feel like I am watching the video game generation. Each hour is packed with one "adventure" after another. I feel that a lot of adults are afraid to let those boys try, or that it is so simple that it escapes the boys and adults attention. It is going against the grain to pick a put down on paper " 12 mile hike, 6 hours time with lunch"...people would rather see, I did 3 merit badges. Even the Philmont program is now built more around many small "adventures". I had more quality time as a scout doing those long distance trips (even with out adults), than during any merit badge trip. I was sitting around a campfire a few months ago and this very topic came up. 4 of the adults had done Hiking MB as scouts. 3 of us, all from different states had done the same 20 mile trail in Kentucky. We all could remember that trail, and the 10+/- mile second day after that. We all were about the same age, maybe 12 or 13. As a adult, I can remember more about those trips than any mammal studies MB. I would rather see a boy do things like that, then worry about getting rank.

I gasp when I read things like this. But I know this is the truth that more than a few people think that Hiking MB is a thing of the past. It is similar to boys wanting to do Geo-caching and not Orienteering. It is a fundamental skill that should be learned. How can you backpack without first hiking? Why would you take boys backpacking without first training them up using hikes with daypacks? Wouldnt most of it be done as part of the normal troop program: Hey PL, here is a map. You and your patrol plan the way back to the campsite from point. Isnt hiking exactly what we are supposed to be doing? Getting the scouts outdoors? I dont care what mix of urban versus wilderness. Get them outdoors. What I find is that the parents/adults are usually more afraid of the distance hikes than the scouts. The adults are usually the ones that tend to have the health issues I worry about on a distance hike. Over a 4+/- year scout career this should be an easy one to get. Just like the boys have to log the days of camping. The only one that takes significant planning is the 20 mile requirement.

Beavah, E92 and others, Thanks for the conversation as well. I learns a great deal during these and it forces me to look up details. Question assumptions. I am not always right. We would all prefer to have the boys outdoors as much as possible. Practice all those skills over and over. Having them learning things in the environment they want to be in.

Beav and E92, I think we are talking past each..For ours, and I expect almost all units a scout is absolutely tested. I am not sure how you guys jumped to that. let's not jump to character development issues. But beyond that there is some grey area. If we are going to quote verbatim from the Guide to Advancement 2011. (I hate quoting rules, as the are always rules that contradict other rules, BSA is no exception) Look a few paragraphs up the page you quoted from. Section 4.2.1.0 "Well-delivered programming will take boys to First Class in their first year of membership. Advancement is a simple matter when the four steps or stages outlined below are observed and integrated into troop programming." Note it clearly says first year of membership. It does say: 4.2.1.1 The Scout Learns He learns by doing, and as he learns, he grows in his ability to do his part as a member of the patrol and troop. As he develops knowledge and skill, he is asked to teach others; and in this way he learns and develops leadership. It does say "as he develops....he is asked to teach"...it does not say exactly what and when he is asked to teach. The only place that it is sepicificaly laid out is in some of the rank requirements. It is part of the personal growth experience. This section lays out long term goals and paths. It does not lay out each step along the way. Oh yep, they break off into small groups and do help each other to learn in pairs at these begining ranks. But the higher level "organizational" parts of teaching get left to older scouts. Does a young boy have to teach each and every skill? likely not, or else we would be doing Communication MB over and over for each task. By "one and done"...Let me ask you this. how many of you are in units that have a chance to go over "Safety afloat" more than once a year if even that? How often would of a repeat would be enough? When do you stop? If you asked your scouts 6 months after a float trip even though you went through all of this? What level of "memory" retention would you expect? By one and done we are lucky to have a few weeks per year on a single subject. Knots are easy, they are absolute. It is right or it is wrong. What is an acceptable meal plan? Did they make the budget? Did they put the tent up by themselves..easy things to prove. (Physical and concrete items) You are asking about things that are leadership development. Those are more subtle. CE

Big typo in my last message...Most boys complete FC within 18 months to 2 years.. If it goes on longer than that, we tend to lose them from the program.

E92, Back to the original idea of this thread: Looking over past results, I see about 1/3 of the boys completing first class in 12 to 15 months. A few have taken 4 years. Most are done in 1 year. This is with a troop centered program, not doing some of those 1 week wonder programs I have seen. Therefore, 1 year is absolutely doable, but it is not a guarantee of success. Neither is 2 or 3 years. The biggest issue is getting the boys to show up. You wrote: >>>"Yes the requirements say "tell, do," but that does not mean you have to immediately sign off on it after one time. I admit I am disappointed in the current BSHB removing the phrase that was in previous books, "master the skills" in regards to advancement. " Not to be rude, but by not signing off isnt that in effect adding requirements? I also council a few merit badges, there are parts to those I do not like. But I have to stick to the written requirements. But I do agree one method of testing a boy is to see if he can teach others, but it is not the only method. >>>A) The badge represents what the scout CAN DO, not a reward for what he has done (caps for emphasis). Not to Lawyer up an answer, but I can be President. Can I get a badge for that?...Nope. The only professional badges I can get are based on past tests and requirements fulfilled. The truth is that Can Dos cant really be measured, only past performance can. What is the disclaimer they put on those commercials for IRAS. Past performance does not guarantee future successbut with the badge, future success is much more likely. >>>>B) Teaching skills is a way of learning and reinforcing the skills. So you can wait until the Scout works with others on the skills before sign offs. See my answer above, but you have to be careful that it does not become the Life Requirement. 6. While a Star Scout, use the EDGE method to teach a younger Scout the skills from ONE of the following seven choices, so that he is prepared to pass those requirements to his unit leader's satisfaction. Again, I dont 100% agree putting off this requirement until Life, but it is written that way. >>>>2) As others have said, a strong, active program that uses the skills on a monthly basis will reinforce the skills and allow them to master them in quick time. Agreed 100%...

Beavah, Regarding "Once and Done" I am with ya, but The letter of many of the requirements read like "tell, do". I can't anything more to those. I agree that one or two times does not equal mastery of a skill. All I can do is in the 2nd year start making those boys plan the events. Repeat the skills while having them teach the new lads. For those who think they have mastered "safety afloat" etc, I will tell you as an adult I never consider myself as having mastered a skill. Yes I have all the certificates that say I do, but I have to always go back to the check lists and re-read things. Assuming mastery for a boy or an adult can get you into trouble. Teaching them the process of double checking and where to look for information works better. And yes, we do incorporate MB into the mix such as canoeing and hiking when possible. Older boys working on Camping MB plan a few outings etc. I am not a big fan of the current requirements as they are laid out now. I see the current requirements as trying to ease the boys into scouting without making them do much "hard work". But it does work to keep boys in the system. As a youth, the approach my troop used was to make you do the MB's right away. I did Cooking MB as new 11 year old scout. Scared the heck out on me having an adult looking over my shoulder all the time as I did the work. I believe this approach was a factor in a few of the boys dropping out around me. Looking back as an adult, they may have dropped anyway.

First Class in a year? Yup very possible with a reasonably laid out program, if the boys show up and want to do it. Looking at last year's class of about a dozen, maybe 3 are almost or nearly at first class, 2 dropped out. The rest are spread between scout and barely 2nd class. I don't think this is that hard. All it takes is some thought. For example, the boys pick a canoe trip...That forces manditory swim tests and safety afloat for all. (FC req). Boys pick a hiking trip, give them the map, walk with that patrol and let them get a little lost. (That is a great teacher) I view and tell the boys that these first few ranks are the path to adventure. As others have pointed out, the orienteering skills can be a problem. For some more than others. Some try hard, some get it quickly, others avoid or struggle. The scariest requirement, and the one that takes the most planning and work by the boy is the meal planning and acting as head cook. Maybe 6 of the 12 boys have completed that. But isn't that what we should be doing? How can we take them on the big trips that they really want without having them reasonably know these skills? My two cents... Now on to the next recruit class of 16. No method is 100% perfect, each troop has it's own flavor

This thread really hit me hard this morning when coupled with the news from Ohio. This is all very close to home for me. Mooning, Yep I remember that crud happening when I was a scout, and do remember LE being called. At the time it ended up being a stern talk with scouts and parents. Now days it would be a federal case I am sure. I recently witnessed and older scout pulling the same stunt, and still am angry about it. Yes I also remember a few boys pulling the "extra" rain on a canvas tent trick. Almost all of those boys took care of themselves by leaving. These problems are not unique to scouts, as my sons tell me of similar issues at school all the time. The line between boys pulling stunts, and risky abusive behavior is a fine one. It is blurred by both the age of the scout and his emotional maturity. We are here to help them grow, not call the law in every time. Alcohol, yep once as a scout I even pulled that stunt. I have not seen the scouts try this one, but I am sure some day one will do it to. (That has been a problem with adults though) Drugs, yep have a scout with that problem outside of scouts. It has not appeared in scouts, so I all I can do it watch it. The scouts themselves told me about it. But, I have seen verbal abuse by scouts that tops almost any physical action. That is hard to deal with. I have also seen adults be even worse. Never called LE about a scout.....came darn close on an adult...COR took care of that problem..still not sure if LE If we took out all problem boys from our troop, the number would be cut by at least 1/3. Most grow out of their problems, given a little help. Having been a "lost" problem boy myself, I tend to watch them closer. I have at least one other adult with a similar mindset in the troop acting as a backup. Off record, we generally work with the parents and some "wink-wink", "nudge-nudge" with the schools to try and help the problem boys. We are not allowed to share information do to regulations, but we can talk generalities. No names are mentioned, but in reality we all know which boys we are talking about. So no, I have never gone to LE, but I have gone to parents to nudge them and their into counseling and a professional evaluation. Prior to my entry into the troop, at least one boy was asked to leave.

Boy, this is a topic that can make my blood boil and is right on spot for a meeting I have today. Patrol method can work very well...except.. In response to Tampa Turtle (TT hit the good points) -Because leaders have not been trained...But even training does not make a good adult leader. It sure helps, but there has to be an ability to lead and instruct. Many lectures on EDGE method can't help if the adult is not apt to understand that part of the learning/growing process is to allow mistakes. (when safety not effected)...coach and help the boys grow..point out the good with the bad!. -Adult leaders were never scouts.(or if they were, kinda forget all the small mistakes they made along the way...or that maybe someone pointed them in the right direct.) -Adult leaders, who either missed scouts or want to re-live their scout days, want to be man-scouts. (spot on!!!, you can guide, but it really is for them, ditto for those trying to re-live there youth glory footbal days through the kids etc etc) -(Some) Adult Leaders are tin-plated dictators with a god/messiah complex. (Oh yea, been there..)..adults leaders that block boys dreams..adults that YELL, knit-pick, rather than coach and guide. May I add... - parents that were never scouts (and expect cub scout treatment). - parents that don't understand that it is more than just about "Your kid", it it is the 30 or 40 other boys as well - adult leaders that live in "fear" of made up rules - adult leaders that criize the boys for poor organizational skills, when the adults are often no better or worse. Now off to a meeting with my COR to head off a possible revolt partly based on the exact topic here.

Deep Pocket troops, my opinion is. "what ever". I am more concerned with setting a reasonable price for participation and then giving that number out far in advance for bigger trips. That way "maybe" the boys can earn their way. Heck most the scout camps in the area are still in the $300 to $400 for a week. Most of our troops boys have the opportunity to earn a lot of scout money during a 5 day long yearly project that we do. If they can show up, many do not have to pay much for the year. A few truly poor get sponsored, by the troop or a few of the local parishes. Of course one problem with boys earning their own money is trying to find a boy that will cut grass, shovel snow etc. I dont know were any of these boys can earn money now. Where I live, all these jobs are taken up by professional crews. Regarding Popcorn sales: I do appreciate the skills my sons learned while going door to door. However, with the elimination of the tins, I no longer see the value in the product. So I admit to just writing a check this year. I cannot afford the time it takes to deliver the popcorn.

Grass is greener defined: I know have in my hands the annual plan of the adjacent "super troop". Darn I am impressed. Monthly BIG trips often out of state. Every trip advancement and outdoor oreinted. Now I am not knocking "super troops" as I came from one and it can be done. But this is way over the top. I would love to have that troop's budget. I think that parts of this can be done and organized by the boys, but I suspect that much is really adult driven. Regardless, I wish the parent "gripers" would get over with it, help fix the problem or get out. I am not hearing boys complain.

troubled boys defined; two general types: 1. Lonely boys, those needing the typical home out of scouting. (split parents, dont fit in at school etc)..maybe 20% plus 2. Those with diagnosed problems. (ADHD, general anxiety disorders, behavior problems.). currently running over 15% on those. Overall I am fairly impressed at how the older boys adapt around these issues.

The more I think about this, I guess I would have been the "troubled" youth when I was a boy. The troop I am working with is becoming a decent boy led troop. I am witnessing more issues with adult expectations than with the boy's.

I am sure many of you have faced these questions over and over. I would be interested in your solutions and opinions. My questions to you all out there are: 1. When young Webelos crossed over, what % did you lose simply because parents still want an adult led program. How do you put an end to the cubscout mode when you suspect that the parents may not adjust? (note the boys usualy adjust, but the parents may be another issue) 2. How many of you face the old grass is greener in troop XXX comments? How do you handle those? 3. How many of you have troubled scouts? I am surprised at the % in our troop. However, I am also impressed that most of it is dealt with relatively well by the boy leadership.

Resq, Some perspective here: This is not a sob story. I do this gladly for my own sons and others. You and others may the luxury of more time than I have. Situation is that other leaders have "almost" stepped down. So I and a "1" other other adult have had to step in much sooner than we expected in order just get the boys out in the woods. My number one goal here is to keep the boy's program going, "SAFELY". Hopefully, while still getting the quality part of it done. As to my background on T-2-1 skills, I used to be a outdoors/pioneering councilor/instructor decades ago at another councils camp. I got all my patches years ago and am really am not concerned with more. Heck, I even have done things like run the basic scout skills stations at klondikes derbys (knots, fire making, etc, etc). Okay, I admit sometimes the new backpacking stoves give me fits, but I suspect that I am fairly solid at my basic scout skills. And yes, just this week I watched a series gentlemen with ASM patches struggle with tying knots....so I really understand your point. I took a quick glance back at my calendar, I am closer to having spent 40 days and nights. The last TWO times my council scheduled IOLS training...I could have gone.....BUT only if I CANCELED a pack/den or troop event. How would that be? If you look at E92's comment, I really feel for the guy and troop he is writing about. There are a lot of people in the same situation. At some point, adding more and more requirements drives adults away. Even through it is a Boy led program, they still need us to tag along. I know of many other leaders in similiar situations, none of us are asking for an "OUT" on being qualified, just asking for consideration that there may be a different route to proving that statement.