Adrianvs

Hypothetical: If the BSA were to blindside us all and completely revoke the uniform as a method of scouting and relegate all current items as historical souvenirs (stranger things have happened in history), would the importance (or necessarity) of uniform for achieving the methods be changed? -There is one argument regarding the integrity of following the program of the organization that you belong to. -There is the second argument regarding the practical value of any particular decision, program, method, (or whatever noun you wish to use) that the BSA makes. Keep both of those in perspective and realize the distinction between them (as well as relation) as you answer. Would the potential value of using uniform have changed pending the voting or dissemination of the policy? Would you describe the decision as "wrong" even if you followed it? Don't answer from the "the BSA ALWAYS makes the correct decision" perspective or the "the BSA is COMPLETELY out of touch with Scouting" perspective unless they are truly your beliefs. Look at the specifics. Would you encourage following the new program? If so, would you still criticize it? These are all thoughts...(This message has been edited by Adrianvs)

Speaking of Pat Buchanan and Iowa, the man who pulled the Reform Party nomination out of his hands in 2000 is still living in Iowa. John Hagelin is no longer running for president, but you could say that he is still in government. "His Excellency" is now a royal minister for a "king" who claims to be part of the restored Ram solar dynasty from Hindu mythology. King Raja Ram is living in Iowa too. So if anyone has been wondering where the Natural Law Party or Hagelin have been this year, they are busy running their own country, the Sovereign Global Country of World Peace. Its capital is in southeast Iowa, where "His Majesty" now resides. Anybody here vote for the Hagelin-Goldhaber ticket in 2000?(This message has been edited by Adrianvs)

Merl, I stated that it was NOT any philosophical attitude (like the BSA stance) that induced the men to murder. It was primarily a physical "gut-reaction" of disgust. I don't think that you get the real point, however. Just because a member of some group is murdered doesn't mean that the group in question cannot be criticized. Members of every group in history have been killed by opposition and yet the ideas they hold will always be in conflict. NJ, I admit that it was just baiting. I assumed that you would support an official atheistic and socialist government and I only have a few historical ones to use as models to determine it would be like. Hopefully, "gulag" will remain a historical term. If lucky, FOG would only be fined or incarcerated for his "hate speech." The government may choose to invest in "really late term abortions" that might be performed for reasons of "social inconvenience," but I'm sure that the hypothetical government would find better euphemisms than I. Seriously though, I don't have significant reason to think that you are an international socialist. Would it suprise me if you were? Heh heh.. Nor do I have reason to believe that you support "hateful speech" or "hateful ideas" as criminal offenses. Again, would I be surprised? Probably not.

NJ brings up a really good point. If the mandatory Venture transfer is true (it does correspond with what I have seen), then it is a likely contributing factor (cause?) of the rank option. I would like to hear about this from one of the unofficial BSA experts on the board. Perhaps it should be posed in a new thread...

Matthew Shepard's murderers didn't kill him because his views conflicted with their philosophy or theology. They killed him because of rage and hatred from being disgusted by him. It's really not unlike the disgust that some feel towards hot dogs or steaks. It's all below the heart as some of the Greeks might say. Most people can control these feelings of disgust and rage. Some cannot. It happens on both 'sides' of any philosophical or political debate. Just as many research facilities (which damage animals) are bombed as abortion clinics (which kill children). You obviously hear about the latter much more, but that is another issue. Neither are commendable actions and neither should be used to silence the philosophical debates associated with them.

Would you mind if the Marine were a member of the modern religion of self-deification. Since the professor asked for God to knock him off the podium and the Marine felt his "inner light" to be God, he simply followed the request. What about if he were a follower of Compte's "Religion of Humanity?" As part of the collective God, he simply followed the request. I wasn't distraught to find a hypothetical professor in a joke whom asked to be knocked down getting his request filled by proxy. It's easy to make dramatic statements mocking others. Just don't be shocked when the others respond. You see, the professor had just finished the part of his course where he explains that all morals are simply conventions. The joke of the story is that he was shocked to find himself treated like an object after he had just explained to all the students that he simply was one. And I don't expect FOG to start slugging anyone with whom he disagrees. If NJ gets his way, the government will have sent him to the Alaska gulag for his "hate speech" long before he got the chance. You've got to spend the 99% taxation on something. Mass killing has been the atheist and progressive choice for the last 100 years. BTW, somebody get the professor an icepack.

"Today I support any Dem who gets the nomination over our coke-snorting, drunk-driving, budget-busting liar who only won the election in the Supreme Court." I haven't heard anything about the Supreme Court fixing Ted Kennedy's election.. Speaking of the Supreme Court, I think that you missed the corner-of-page-eight story telling how Gore would have lost the Florida election by an even larger margin if his preferred vote-counting method had been used. Not that it would have been the last method he proposed, of course...

"God is dead." -Frederich Nietzche "Nietzche is dead." -God I couldn't resist..

Socrates is a man. All men are mortal. Therefore, Socrates is mortal.

I wish that we had a CostCo. I detest expensive socks.

I made camp promotions to boy scout troops as a member of the OA for a few years, so this may or may not apply to your situation. I would usually talk with the scouts themselves about their recent troop camping experiences and tell them about the opportunities that we would be offering at camp. The adults would listen and contribute, but I wasn't really talking to them. I think that works better than rattling off facts to the parents or scouters while ignoring the scouts. I understand that packs have likely had less camping experience, but you could adjust that to the types of activities they have been doing. The parents will be listening and you can answer any questions they may have, but getting the youth engaged is as important in attendence as the parents. And parents find camp promotion lectures as boring as scouts do; they just handle it better. You may even want to bring a couple of staffers along to interact with or lead the cub scouts in some song or activity. Give them a small taste of camp during the meeting. While the youth are engaged, then you could give some more of the details to the adults as needed. Just some thoughts..

I consider the OA to be a program "within" the Boy Scouting program. As long as the venturer is currently registered in his lodge (as well as a troop), then I don't have any problem with wearing insignia that some venturers are not eligible for. I assume that Venturing awards (past or present) can be worn on the tan uniform of a boy scout. There shouldn't be a problem with boy scouting awards worn on a venturing uniform. Cub training patches (or their square knots) are worn by scouters on uniforms in all program areas. One half of the crew is already eligible for membership in a program (Boy Scouting) that the other is not. Between the ages 14-18, that is. Shall we prohibit male scouters from wearing the Eagle square knot because female scouters were never eligible for it? A lot of people are not eligible for a lot of awards in scouting. But to have female venturers perturbed that they can't have membership in the OA until 18 is absurd. They should be perturbed that they can't have membership in Boy Scouting (part of which is OA) until 18 first. There are a lot of insignia that I will never eligible to wear, but I am not going to insist that others remove any patch or medal that I can't have. Perhaps OA could be made a part of the Venturing program. I don't see any reason to, however, any more than I think it should be made part of the Cub Scout or Sea Scout program. It's origin and function seems rooted in boy scout summer camping and the support thereof. It's possible, of course.. On the other hand, if a crew's OA members wish not to wear the flaps out of solidarity with their mates and recognition that it isn't part of the Venturing program, then I have no problem with that. They just shouldn't have to suffer glares from their mates if they choose to wear insignia representative of their experience and membership in the BSA. That's just envy in a rather ugly form.

If anyone says that official BSA uniform socks are not the most cost effective and highest quality option available, let him be anathema.

Welcome back. Ouch. Congratulations. God bless. I like history.

Now in some strains of Buddhism, a Buddha is worshipped as a god, but this is usually done by "laymen" who have not studied the the teachings of Gautama or understand the Four Noble Truths. They simply bring offerings to a temple dedicated to a particular buddha and ask for his favors. We can call them Buddhists, but they aren't representative of "complete Buddhism" or philosophical Buddhism. Their Buddha may be a god, but he isn't a creator god or prime mover. These devotees may be considered theists (perhaps henotheists), but they aren't representative of the philosophy of "complete Buddhism" as taught by Siddhartha Gautama or the practices of monastic communities. A Buddhists may consider the Law of Karma to be their "higher power." I don't really know. If they did consider Gautama Buddha to be their God (as far as the BSA is concerned, haha), then it wouldn't be the only case of a god who was once a man. Nor would it be the only religion to worship a god who was not the creator. Remember that creation was largely a bad deal for Buddhists. In any event, we must remember that there are many forms and branches of Buddhism. The largest divide splits it into what may be called the "Greater Path" and "Lesser Path." These terms are used by the Greater Path, of course . The article also mentions two smaller divisions (Theravada, Mahayana). There are many more, without even including the forms of "pop buddhism" which are quite common in the United States. All of these forms differ greatly on many important points. So it really depends upon the definition of God and the form of Buddhism in question. No form of Buddhism, however, has an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent, and personal creator God.

I just stumbled across this and it reminded me of the topic of originality in camp skits. "THERE is no clearer sign of the absence of originality among modern poets than their disposition to find new topics. Really original poets write poems about the spring. They are always fresh, just as the spring is always fresh. Men wholly without originality write poems about torture, or new religions, or some perversion of obscenity, hoping that the mere sting of the subject may speak for them. But we do not sufficiently realize that what is true of the classic ode is also true of the classic joke. A true poet writes about the spring being beautiful because (after a thousand springs) the spring really is beautiful. In the same way the true humorist writes about a man sitting down on his hat because the act of sitting down on one's own hat (however often and admirably performed) really is extremely funny. We must not dismiss a new poet because his poem is called 'To a Skylark'; nor must we dismiss a humorist because his new farce is called 'My Mother-in-Law.' He may really have splendid and inspiring things to say upon an eternal problem. The whole question is whether he has." -G.K. Chesterton

"WE had talked for about half an hour about politics and God; for men always talk about the most important things to total strangers. It is because in the total stranger we perceive man himself; the image of God is not disguised by resemblances to an uncle or doubts of the wisdom of a moustache." -G.K. Chesterton

This talk of vague religions reminds me of an humorous essay by the "Colossal Genius" himself. http://www.dur.ac.uk/martin.ward/gkc/books/methuselahite.html

I wish that someone knew the rest of the staff jokes. My first year as a camper at summer camp, our troop skit was a series of impersonations of the staff members. While not jokes per se, they went over very well..

"I fail to see how this thread relates to Scouting." I'll explain it to you if you start a new thread for it. Oh yeah, your recent anti-Christian joke wasn't scout-related, either. le Voyageur, Do you think that government can exist without creating massive bloodshed or "jingoistic racism?" What is the ideal state of man? The "noble savage" of Rousseau? Or the societal man of Plato? Are you an anarchist or are you about to propose the new (or old) form of government which will solve all our problems? BTW, I have been aware of the Jews Against Zionism for some time. I have problems with the Zionist movement of the early 20th century, but I have much greater problems with the obsessive anti-Jewish hatred (including self-hatred) that is disguised under the banner of "anti-Zionism."

I'm sorry, but if the BSA allows Buddhists (for whom there is no god) to demonstrate a "duty to God," then I don't think that the organization should have a problem with a deist or agnostic theist. The agnostic or deist can have "real belief" as well. It's just a real belief regarding fewer specific properties of God. I agree that agnosticism shouldn't be seen an excuse for indifferentism as far as the BSA (or anyone else) is concerned. However, one needn't fully understand God in order to serve Him or do one's duty to Him. It certainly does take more than "thinking that God might exist," but a list of God's necessary and sufficient properties isn't required. On the other hand, let's not think of this as a bogus membership requirement. Bob is right; it should be a real and significant part of the person's cosmology and a guiding factor in their behavior. Even if their relationship to God is primarily composed of trying to find and know God, I think that would qualify. In that case, it would be the individual's duty to God.

"Our Dogs have middle names but answer to their first names or the sound of the can opener." hahaha.. Our cats and dog have middle names as well. They picked them up some time after they were given their first names, although the time has been shortened with each animal. Of course, I use only "thou" and "thee" when addressing the animals in second person. It just wouldn't be proper (even though they have middle names) to give them the plural pronouns of respect reserved for formal occasions. Just kidding...

Who says poop isn't funny?

Very interesting, le Voyageur. So the Nazi campaign of genocide was really to prevent the Zionists ("a Jewish Mafia of racial elitism") from organizing a state in Palestine? Wow.. I wonder why Hitler would have objected to that so much? Was he really fond of Egyptian and Jordanian control of the area? Oh yeah, the Zionists were "wrecking havoc on the German economy?" Thank goodness you concede that not ALL Jews are Zionists. Could you let me know how you can tell the difference between "good Jews" and "bad Jews?" Since Hitler couldn't tell, maybe you could inform us. As I understand it, your thesis is that Hitler's mistake was in trying to kill all the Jews instead of only those members of the "Jewish Mafia" in Germany. So he simply went overboard on an otherwise reasonable plan? Perhaps Hitler should have used a technique more like the inquisitions in rooting out the "Jewish Mafia" Zionists from the good mafia.. Is that what you propose? How would you advise the anti-capitalist, vegetarian, New Age spiritualist, former art student, national socialist Hitler in carrying out this plan? I don't know if this is more pathetic or disturbing..

I'm sure that you could get the youth to agree to some form of theism. Pantheism, panentheism, monotheism, polytheism, deism, henotheism would all fall within the BSA guidelines. In fact, the BSA's guidelines include several religions which aren't theistic at all. There is quite a lot of room here. The only faith that the BSA excludes is the positive belief that there is NO GOD WHATSOEVER. Given the broad definitions of God (even just those accepted by the BSA), holding this position seems more difficult than accepting the existance of one of the Gods. It is quite likely that the youth is using the term "atheist" for lack of a more precise or more accurate word. If nothing else, perhaps the youth will agree to being an agnostic and concede that ahigher power exists, but that its specific properties are unknown to him. This seems to work for many scouters.. The advisor shouldn't encourage earning a specific award for all members, of course. But there is nothing wrong with encouraging members to earn the awards relevant to their faiths, if availiable.