Adrianvs

By the way, Bob, you did answer my question about the salutes. Even if the Webelos scouts were using the Scout Oath and Law most of the time, they would still salute with the Cub Scout salute. I do appreciate your answers even if I contest some of the premises used to formulate them.. ;-)

Bob WhiTE, "I thought from your first post you were asking a question, I had no idea that you had already made your decision." The first question was whether the den may begin using the Scout Oath and Law exclusively. The second question was whether the normative salute for Webelos Scouts doing so would be the Scout salute. You remarked that the Scout Oath and Law should only be used from time to time. This (despite being a reasonable personal opinion) is not indicated by the Fast Start training or handbook. The issues are closely related, but not the same. FOG, Good point about rank. Perhaps we should call them merit badges.. Wait, that is already taken. Hmm.. What about "affirmation levels?" No, "level" is too..leveled. Hmm.. To call them awards would indicate that having the award is a state of greater value than not having the award. Since each state (having and not having the award) is entirely appropriate to the skills demonstrated by the boy, then one state must not be better than another. Having and not having the rank (or award) are both stepping stones along the same trail. Given this, we can't call them awards either. Drat. Alright, lets just call them "left pocket patches." "Badge" seems to indicate too much of a value to the state of possessing it. Seriously though, "upgrade" probably wasn't the right word. That is likely why I put it in quotes. While the programs themselves are of equal value for the age of the boys in them, it would be a mistake to think that the skill levels and experiences acquired by the boys as they pass from rank to rank (and program to program) are not improvements. An upgrade isn't always something completely new replacing something previous. In many cases, it consists in adding to and building upon that which previously existed.

"Can they use the Boy Scout Oath and Law for Den meetings? That is a good learning tool from time to time, but they are still Cubs and should continue to pledge to the Cub Promise and Law of the Pack as well." Please inform the authors of the Fast Start Guide of this as they continue to list the Cub Scout Promise as an option for den meetings after the Scout Oath or Law. "Opening...Recite the Scout Oath or Scout Law, or the Cub Scout Promise or Pledge of Allegiance." "Closing...Or they can recite the Scout Oath, Cub Scout Promise, or Scout Law, if not done earlier in the meeting." These words seem to indicate that either may be used by Webelos dens. If any is to be favored by the Guide, it seems to be the Scout Oath as it is consistently listed first. In addition, the aformentioned video clips feature Webelos dens reciting the Scout Oath or Law and not the Cub Scout Promise. Granted, this emphasis may be merely to demonstrate that Webelos dens have the OPTION of using the Scout Oath, Law, and Sign, but it gives no indication that dens should do this only "from time to time" or that they should continue using the Cub Scout Promise. This emphasis and indication in the Fast Start literature may very well be contrary to the handbook passages. Maybe it is an exception to the rules described in the passages. Perhaps the Fast Start Guide merely gives the wrong impression and the Scout Oath and Law are to be used only "from time to time." Perhaps the handbook is describing a general rule and fails to indicate a legitimate option (demonstrated elsewhere) for Webelos dens. What say ye? BTW, I was wrong to characterize the passing from a "We'll Be Loyal Scouts" Scout to a loyal Scout as an upgrade. What was I thinking? How condescending of me.. One more question, though. Are the ranks within a program greater and lesser or are they merely different, too?

The Cub Fast Start Guide instructs Webelos dens to open meetings with either the Scout Oath and Law or the Cub Scout Oath and Law. The video images provided for online Fast Start training show Webelos Scouts using the Scout sign while reciting the Scout Oath or Law. This seems to indicate that a Webelos den may (or is encouraged to) use the Scout Oath and Law (and thus Sign) exclusively. IF a den were to use the Scout Oath, Law and Sign exclusively, then would the Scout salute be used normatively by the Webelos as well. The designations based on uniforms are not helpful as it is not clear whether a Webelos scout's uniform is the "Boy Scout Uniform" or "Cub Scout Uniform." Is there a qualitative difference between the tan Webelos uniform and the blue one? Should the "tan" Webelos scouts use the Scout sign for salutes and the "blue" Webelos scouts the Cub Sign? Should the den use the same salute? So it would seem to me that the thing to do would be to answer the question without an arrogant and condescending pretense that the answer is obvious. Yes?

While it seems obvious that a Webelos scout would use the Scout sign when reciting the Scout Oath or Law, it has come to my attention that this may be the normative sign given by the den if they choose. In other words, it appears that a new Webelos den may begin using the Scout Oath and Law in place of the Cub Scout Promise and Law (at least during den activities). Is this the case? Can the den permanently "upgrade" to the Scout Oath and Sign when it sees fit? If this is the case, then does that make the normative salute for the Webelos den the Boy Scout salute? Does it at least give them the choice of which salute to use?

"That particular person seems to have been, to use another euphemism, 'dealt with.'" I haven't been following the boards very closely for the last several weeks. Can I take your euphemism to indicate that Wheeler was axed by the administrator? Or was there more of a collaborative effort of some sort? heh, I felt a pseudo-responsibility for the whole affair as it seems to have been my "Wimps and Barbarians" post that brought him to the forums or inspired him to start posting. I'm just curious as to what happened..

"Does any one know how many candidates don't survive the ordeal?" Survive or complete?

"None of you are trained in philosophy." Wheeler, I am trained in philosophy. I asked you a question before and I would like an answer. Plato, whom you quote as an infallible authority, stated that women could be members of the ruling class in his society. I would have to check, but I think that he also included them as members of the second class, the soldiers ruled by 'timos' or honor. You seem to indicate that leadership is exclusively male. He also proposes that children are raised collectively by members of the class they belong to. Plato argued for the dissolution of the family as a meaningful unit. Can you please explain to me how and where Plato went wrong? Re-read the Republic if necessary. If Plato is wrong about these things, then I think that you need to lay out his false from true teachings before you use him as an authority rather than an example. Also, Stoicism was not adopted by the Church fathers without modification. I suggest that you read St. Augustine on the errors of Stoicism. I think that City of God is a good place to start. You can not separate Stoic ethics from Stoic logic (including epistemology), and Stoic physics. Even making these distinctions is contrary to Stoicism itself. You may agree with certain externals of Stoic ethics (not whining), but don't credit that to Stoicism itself. Stoics were hard determinists regarding the world who believed that humans could achieve perfection without divine aid. "Christian Stoics" can be found in the extinct heresy of Pelagianism. Look that one up. BTW, Cicero was a crappy Stoic; at most he paid only lip service to it. He is a notorious whiner and his constant complaining should not be the basis for a devotion to 'gravitas.' I must congratulate you, however, on managing to turn an entire group of people against philosophy or anything that even remotely looks or smells like it. I didn't think that was possible in two months time..(This message has been edited by Adrianvs)

Laudato si, mi signore, per sora nostra morte corporale, da laquale nullu homo vivente po skappare. Guai acqueli ke morrano ne le peccata mortali! Beati quelli ke trovarane le tue santissime voluntati, ka la morte secunda nol fara' male.

Wheeler, Plato disagrees quite strongly with Aristotle on the nature of aristocracy and the ruling class in the ideal society. You seem to favor Aristotle's model. Can you explain the errors that Plato made and how they were corrected by Aristotle?

I was not refering to those who are active in the Order of the Arrow. I was not even refering to those individuals who neglect their unit and yet remain active in their Lodge. That is unfortunate, but I was referring to an OA program which fails to preserve local camping traditions and support the council camping program. Year-round events are fine, but when the Lodge activities become an alternative to scout camping or even a supposedly integral part of being an arrowman, then the meaning is lost. When being an arrowman means that you skip your local camp to attend the carnival called NOAC, then the program needs to be changed. When being an arrowman means that you are constantly pressured to "get your brotherhood" and are forced to attend impromptu "brotherhood ceremonies" in the back lawn after the monthly meeting so that the Lodge may gain some percentage award. Serving on cermony teams, giving camp promotions, learning indian lore, making outfitting, and serving as lodge or chapter officers are all good things. In fact, I would recommend them to anyone with the opportunity. My time spent as a ceremonialist, camp promoter, and chapter chief was among the most rewarding in my experience as a youth. I can still recite all the poetry of Meteu from heart. I just want to caution all arrowmen to remember that their primary responsibility as an arrowman is in service to scouting with a particular emphasis on camping and local camping traditions. If they are serving in this manner, they they should not be chastized for their "inactivity."

I'm with Lord Robert Baden-Powell on this one. Besides, there is nothing Marxist about giving children leadership positions or "some say." Marx and his intellectual progeny would give children far less responsibility and say than any sane philosopher. As for Dewey's education, I must remind you that BP did not deny that schoolmasters and parents were supposed to be authoritative figures. Instead, he stated that Scoutmasters were not to lead as schoolmasters or commanding officers. They were to lead as older brothers. Scouting is not school. Scouting is not the military. Scouting is not Sunday school. Scouting is not some microcosm of Plato's republic or Aristotle's society. It is Scouting. It is composed of patrols and troops under the leadership of youth leaders and the guidance of old scouts acting as older brothers. Thank you for your insight, B-P.

He should do his best to exemplify the Scout Oath and Law. He should promote scout camping and seek to preserve the camping traditions of his unit. He should seek to preserve a cheerful spirit, even in the midst of irksome tasks and weighty responsibilities. He should be an honor camper. He may do this through his troop or through his troop and local OA chapter or lodge. That decision will determine whether he will seek to seal his membership in the Order and become a Brotherhood member. That decision should be up to him.

In my opinion "Scouts who are not suited to life in the Patrols" are scouts who are not suited for life in the troops. It seems that patrol compatibility is the least of your problems here. I would be focusing on the "serious behaviour problems" before I concerned myself with creating a new position in which to place the scout. I think that you are fortunate to have a Scouting program which avoids all the "floater" positions that the BSA does and resembles BP's system better. I may be mistaken, but it sounds like the "Venture" patrol is composed of mainly older scouts. Could you just place the new scout in that patrol without making him the assistant patrol leader. I'm not sure exactly what "it's the level he is working on" means, but it would seem to indicate that he would be interested and suited to such a group's activities. I would say let him be a member of this patrol and after he has been with the troop for a while, he may seek a position. He will no longer be "the new guy" and he will know better how to function as a member of the troop. He is still young (at 14) and so has plenty of time to seek and hold offices. I don't think that he "deserves" to be a troop officer just because he was one in his former troop. He needs to learn how to be a good scout before he becomes a good scout leader.

We should remember that an arrowman's first and most important obligations are to his troop. I say that if he is remaining an active in his troop, keeping a cheerful spirit, fulfilling his responsibilities, and helping to preserve camping traditions for his unit and camp, then he is an excellent arrowman. He should also pay his lodge dues and try to help out where able, obviously, but his most important responsibilites as an arrowman are not to hang out with a bunch of other sash-wearers every other weekend. To me, that is a bastardization of the meaning and intent of the organization as expressed in the Legend and words of the Founders.

Happiness is good. Cicero was a notorious whiner. Even Augustine couldn't help but say so. Pictures of knights are good, too. That is all.

ASM1, I hope that you would at least let your family members return to the privacy of your own home before you commenced ripping their uniforms off. Would you rip your own uniform shirt off as well? May I suggest doing it Hulk Hogan style in your front lawn? Do you have a growl practiced for when you do righteous ripping? Tell me more about this mission to end Scouting. Do you have any details planned yet? I don't think that the BSA would ever ban women, of course, but I wonder how you would go about that. Are there any other bad policy decisions that would warrant your RIP, BURN, DESTROY protocol? Does it apply to your troop as well? Would any possible committee decisions spur you to start breaking and/or lighting things on fire during the meeting? Would you find it necessary to shout "SMASH!!!" and/or "BURN!!!" while doing so? What if the BSA or troop corrected its policy before you destroyed it? Would you return to the program or finish the job?

OK, here it goes.. I submit for your enjoyment a list of quotes from the 'Colossal Genius' himself, G.K. Chesterton: "The act of defending any of the cardinal virtues has today all the exhilaration of a vice." - A Defense of Humilities, The Defendant, 1901 "A dead thing can go with the stream, but only a living thing can go against it." - Everlasting Man, 1925 "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions." - ILN, 4/19/30 "Impartiality is a pompous name for indifference, which is an elegant name for ignorance." - The Speaker, 12/15/00 "An inconvenience is only an adventure wrongly considered; an adventure is an inconvenience rightly considered." - On Running After Ones Hat, All Things Considered, 1908 "What embitters the world is not excess of criticism, but an absence of self-criticism." - Sidelights on New London and Newer New York "He is a [sane] man who can have tragedy in his heart and comedy in his head." - Tremendous Trifles, 1909 "Among the rich you will never find a really generous man even by accident. They may give their money away, but they will never give themselves away; they are egotistic, secretive, dry as old bones. To be smart enough to get all that money you must be dull enough to want it." - A Miscellany of Men "Moderate strength is shown in violence, supreme strength is shown in levity." - The Man Who was Thursday, 1908 "The simplification of anything is always sensational." - Varied Types "Customs are generally unselfish. Habits are nearly always selfish." - ILN 1-11-08 "I believe what really happens in history is this: the old man is always wrong; and the young people are always wrong about what is wrong with him. The practical form it takes is this: that, while the old man may stand by some stupid custom, the young man always attacks it with some theory that turns out to be equally stupid." - ILN 6-3-22 "To have a right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it." - A Short History of England, Ch.10 "All the exaggerations are right, if they exaggerate the right thing." - "On Gargoyles." Alarms and Discursions "The comedy of man survives the tragedy of man." - ILN 2-10-06 "We have had no good comic operas of late, because the real world has been more comic than any possible opera." - The Quotable Chesterton "When learned men begin to use their reason, then I generally discover that they haven't got any." - ILN 11-7-08 "Aesthetes never do anything but what they are told." - "The Love of Lead" Lunacy and Letters "The aesthete aims at harmony rather than beauty. If his hair does not match the mauve sunset against which he is standing, he hurriedly dyes his hair another shade of mauve. If his wife does not go with the wall-paper, he gets a divorce." - ILN,12/25/09 "The reformer is always right about what is wrong. He is generally wrong about what is right." - ILN 10-28-22 "Reason is always a kind of brute force; those who appeal to the head rather than the heart, however pallid and polite, are necessarily men of violence. We speak of 'touching' a man's heart, but we can do nothing to his head but hit it." - "Charles II" Twelve Types "Man is always something worse or something better than an animal; and a mere argument from animal perfection never touches him at all. Thus, in sex no animal is either chivalrous or obscene. And thus no animal invented anything so bad as drunkeness - or so good as drink." - All Things Considered "A thing may be too sad to be believed or too wicked to be believed or too good to be believed; but it cannot be too absurd to be believed in this planet of frogs and elephants, of crocodiles and cuttle-fish." - Maycock, The Man Who Was Orthodox "Progress is a comparative of which we have not settled the superlative." - Chapter 2, Heretics, 1905 "Men invent new ideals because they dare not attempt old ideals. They look forward with enthusiasm, because they are afraid to look back." - What's Wrong With The World, 1910 "Tradition means giving votes to the most obscure of all classes, our ancestors. It is the democracy of the dead. Tradition refuses to submit to that arrogant oligarchy who merely happen to be walking around." - Orthodoxy, 1908 "The modern world is a crowd of very rapid racing cars all brought to a standstill and stuck in a block of traffic." - ILN, 5/29/26 "A detective story generally describes six living men discussing how it is that a man is dead. A modern philosophic story generally describes six dead men discussing how any man can possible be alive." - A Miscellany of Men "To hurry through one's leisure is the most unbusiness-like of actions." - "A Somewhat Improbable Story." Tremendous Trifles "The past is not what it was." - A Short History of England "War is not 'the best way of settling differences; it is the only way of preventing their being settled for you." - ILN, 7/24/15 "There is a corollary to the conception of being too proud to fight. It is that the humble have to do most of the fighting." - Everlasting Man, 1925 "The only defensible war is a war of defense." - Autobiography, 1937 "The true soldier fights not because he hates what is in front of him, but because he loves what is behind him." - ILN, 1/14/11 "How quickly revolutions grow old; and, worse still, respectable." - The Listener. 3-6-35 "Once abolish the God, and the government becomes the God." - Christendom in Dublin, 1933 "America is the only country ever founded on a creed." - What I Saw In America, 1922 "The Declaration of Independence dogmatically bases all rights on the fact that God created all men equal; and it is right; for if they were not created equal, they were certainly evolved unequal. There is no basis for democracy except in a dogma about the divine origin of man." - Chapter 19, What I Saw In America, 1922 "The unconscious democracy of America is a very fine thing. It is a true and deep and instinctive assumption of the equality of citizens, which even voting and elections have not destroyed." - What I Saw In America, 1922 "When you break the big laws, you do not get freedom; you do not even get anarchy. You get the small laws." - Daily News, 7/29/05 "He is a very shallow critic who cannot see an eternal rebel in the heart of a conservative." - Varied Types "You can never have a revolution in order to establish a democracy. You must have a democracy in order to have a revolution. - Tremendous Trifles, 1909 "It is the mark of our whole modern history that the masses are kept quiet with a fight. They are kept quiet by the fight because it is a sham-fight; thus most of us know by this time that the Party System has been popular only in the sense that a football match is popular." - A Short History of England. 156 "It is terrible to contemplete how few politicians are hanged." - The Cleveland Press, 3/1/21 "There cannot be a nation of millionaires, and there never has been a nation of Utopian comrades; but there have been any number of nations of tolerably contented peasants." Outline of Sanity CW. V. 192 "It is a good sign in a nation when things are done badly. It shows that all the people are doing them. And it is bad sign in a nation when such things are done very well, for it shows that only a few experts and eccentrics are doing them, and that the nation is merely looking on." - "Patriotism and Sport," All Things Considered "The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of the Conservatives is to prevent the mistakes from being corrected." - ILN, 4/19/24 "With all that we hear of American hustle and hurry, it is rather strange that Americans seem to like to linger on longer words." - What I Saw in America "Love means loving the unlovable - or it is no virtue at all." - Heretics, 1905 "Marriage is a duel to the death which no man of honour should decline." - Manalive "The first two facts which a healthy boy or girl feels about sex are these: first that it is beautiful and then that it is dangerous." - ILN 1/9/09 "The Bible tells us to love our neighbors, and also to love our enemies; probably because they are generally the same people." - ILN, 7/16/10 "If there were no God, there would be no atheists." - Where All Roads Lead, 1922 "There are those who hate Christianity and call their hatred an all-embracing love for all religions." - ILN, 1/13/06 "The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried." - Chapter 5, What's Wrong With The World, 1910 "The riddles of God are more satisfying than the solutions of man." - Introduction to the Book of Job, 1907 "The truth is, of course, that the curtness of the Ten Commandments is an evidence, not of the gloom and narrowness of a religion, but, on the contrary, of its liberality and humanity. It is shorter to state the things forbidden than the things permitted: precisely because most things are permitted, and only a few things are forbidden." - ILN 1-3-20 "Men do not differ much about what things they will call evils; they differ enormously about what evils they will call excusable." - ILN, 10/23/09 "It's not that we don't have enough scoundrels to curse; it's that we don't have enough good men to curse them." - ILN, 3/14/08 "There is a case for telling the truth; there is a case for avoiding the scandal; but there is no possible defense for the man who tells the scandal, but does not tell the truth." - ILN, 7/18/08 "Idolatry is committed, not merely by setting up false gods, but also by setting up false devils; by making men afraid of war or alcohol, or economic law, when they should be afraid of spiritual corruption and cowardice." - ILN 9/11/09 "All science, even the divine science, is a sublime detective story. Only it is not set to detect why a man is dead; but the darker secret of why he is alive." - The Thing. CW. III 191 "Modern broad-mindedness benefits the rich; and benefits nobody else." - "The Church of the Servile State" Utopia of Usurers "Big Business and State Socialism are very much alike, especially Big Business." - G.K.'s Weekly, 4/10/26 "[No society can survive the socialist] fallacy that there is an absolutely unlimited number of inspired officials and an absolutely unlimited amount of money to pay them." - The Debate with Bertrand Russell, BBC Magazine, 11/27/35 "The real argument against aristocracy is that it always means the rule of the ignorant. For the most dangerous of all forms of ignorance is ignorance of work." - NY Sun 11-3-18 "Art, like morality, consists of drawing the line somewhere." - ILN, 5/5/28 "The decay of society is praised by artists as the decay of a corpse is praised by worms." - Shaw, 1909 "The artistic temperament is a disease that afflicts amateurs." - Chapter 16, Heretics, 1905 "Properly speaking, of course, there is no such thing as a return to nature, because there is no such thing as a departure from it. The phrase reminds one of the slightly intoxicated gentleman who gets up in his own dining room and declares firmly that he must be getting home." - Chesterton Review, August, 1993 "Let all the babies be born. Then let us drown those we do not like." - Babies and Distributism, GK's Weekly, 11/12/32 "A modern vegetarian is also a teetotaler, yet there is no obvious connection between consuming vegetables and not consuming fermented vegetables. A drunkard, when lifted laboriously out of the gutter, might well be heard huskily to plead that he had fallen there through excessive devotion to a vegetable diet." "You cannot grow a beard in a moment of passion." - "How I Met the President" Tremendous Trifles

I found the following take on Gibson's film to be quite telling. http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=12115

Acts 10:9-16, 28 You should read the entire chapters to understand the context, but there are the specific parts of Acts 10. Acts 15 is more general, referring to the validity of all traditional Jewish practices. The apostles make an executive decision here, deciding what will and will not be binding on the faithful. They are exercising apostolic authority here. Read through the Acts while looking at the ministry of Peter in relation to the Gentiles. The issue of obeying Levititical law comes up several times and the apostles (usually Peter) address the issue by stating that those who wish to follow Christ are no longer bound by the Old Covenant or its laws. Again, you have to look at the Act of the Apostles, not as a series of direct commandments to the reader (ala Koran), but instead as a descriptive history of, well, the acts of the apostles at the very foundation of the church. Very important teachings regarding Levitical law are discussed here. You may also want to read Paul's letter to the Hebrews. It goes into detail regarding the two Covenants. I'm telling this to you so that you may gain understanding of the things that you talk about. The Bible is not a collection of proverbs or truisms. There are parts that consist in this. The whole is, however, a historical and chronological story with commentary along the way. I don't know how to explain this any more clearly, but you must understand that the Christian understands the Old Testament only in light of the New Testament. If you are ignorant of the New Testament, then you cannot presume to know how a Christian should or would understand any particular passage in the Old Testament.

I thought that Aristotle supported the governmental system of Aristocracy because it meant "Rule by Aristotle." Hmm...

"Your approach to philosophy is not the same approach of the ancients. They quoted their ancient literature and wisdom sayings of their "primitive" religion to prove points. Truth is truth." Socrates engaged in discussions. Yes, he occastionally quoted some poet, but it was only in conformity with normal Greek discourse. The quotes are part of Greek culture and known to the fellow speakers. It would be akin to you quoting "The Simpsons" or "Seinfeld," not ancient Greek authors. Furthermore, the quotes are very seldom made in Socratic discussions. Socrates does not regurgitate dozens of quotes; he uses dialogue and dialectic. I am merely suggesting that you use your own words to bring these issues to light. Socrates was not content to recite Homer for hours on end and expect his listeners to nod in agreement. That is what the Sophists and orators did. Instead, he engaged his listeners and challenged their perceptions. I think that you have good ideas and good understanding. That is being blocked from our perception by overwhelming block-quoting and dramatic appeals. Don't be Gorgias. Be Socrates.

I think that Wheeler is a real person. While I disagree with some of his positions, I think that he is well-meaning and well-informed on many points. I think that he would be more welcomed if he let his philosophical and Scriptural knowledge inform his own discussions rather than bulk-quoting in response to anything. He has brought up some interesting points, but I think they get lost in the dramatics and overkill. I enjoyed his first couple of posts and was planning on responding with agreement and criticism where necessary, but they just kept coming too fast to bother. Now they seem more like paste-it pronouncements than the thoughts of an individual. Even if Wheeler is not a current member of the BSA, I think that he could join our discussions and bring his educated insight into it. But he needs to learn about the program (in theory and practice) first and then proceed in his own words just as if he were speaking to another person. Only then will he become a welcomed and contributing member of this forum. Those are my thoughts on the issue..

Born on a cold December night in 1981 in the American midwest..

hahahahahahaha... That's a good one OGE! It might be more accurate if the young man asks about merging Rationalism and Empiricism, however. My first philosophy professor was a Thomist, but wasn't Catholic; he was some sort of Protestant. Well, he said that his professors always referred to him as a "Peeping Thomist." I thought it was rather amusing..