concscouter

Personally, I like it. Our committee took one look at it and said 'why wait', we aren't making it a requirement ahead of time but we decided to go ahead and start teaching it now (in cubs).

I love a happy ending... I have posted on and off about some problems I had with a couple of units. I got some good advise, and I got questioned and was doubting what I was doing too, because really, 2 chartered orgs? Yeah, it was a little nuts... well, I said if it happened again I was done, it was me and my wife and our leaders/parents at the root and something was wrong with us. One person said something along the lines of 'maybe you should take a break, do you really think it isn't you?'... yeah, I wasn't sure... Recap - Son was ready to quit, I started a new troop with some boys but was still cubmaster, chartered org #1 asked my wife and I to quit. Moved to new place, new chartered org that didn't have a troop (closed one down to pack/troop getting along problems three years ago) they had issues, we tried to help them fix it, troop got folded because of a youth protection issue in the pack that one of the troop leaders said something about to the head of charter org president #2. It didn't happen again. We rechartered as a friends of. We were asked by parents in chartered org #2 to start a pack too, we did that as well. So, we have two units now. It has been drama free. It's amazing how it has worked out. Its been a year, and we just rechartered. But, there was some doubt, even I had doubts looking at everything and going 'what the .... ?!?!?'.... Chartered org #1( 1 pack, 1 troop) is about to fold the pack they threw us out of for forming a new troop. They are down to 4 boys, refuse to recruit and have not been holding meetings since last year. I hate to see it happen, but the other unit in the school has picked up the slack and is now over a hundred cubs. It appears that nobody really wanted us to go, except the scoutmaster in the troop we were feeding because I questioned him. Oh, he is gone too, left 4 months after doing all the damage he could. The troop is under new leadership and is doing things the right way now, but has no pack feeding them, nor are they actively recruiting, don't know what will become of them yet. Everyone that stood against us is now out of scouting, except one. I hope they can get it back together. But after two years, guess what? It's still my fault... that one person that stood against me at first is claiming its my fault they are about to go under (mind you, they didn't recruit at school night to join scouting or anything else either). Yeah, okay, I don't think so, I am not taking the blame for this one. Chartered org #2 (1 pack, folded a troop) , well... the head of the chartered org was filled by a new person... and the first thing was the new president did was an audit to figure out where all the money went. Turns out the IH was hosting private luncheons for the CO once a month and footing the entire bill back to the CO. The old head of the chartering org was pretty much tossed out of scouts by the leadership in the pack. It got pretty bad at one point as that person continued to harrass us for about 3 months after they folded the troop... but eventually even the district got fed up and told her to go away. In the end, it wasn't really two chartered orgs I had problems with, it was 2 people who happened to be in a position that they never should have been in, and have since been removed. One of those units survived (#2 pack) the other one has pretty much imploded (#1 pack)... Recruiting has been a pain, this year numbers are down everywhere in our council and we don't recruit from a school. Hopefully, after the first unit can't recharter we'll get back in the school... Hopefully. But, we are getting boys word of mouth here and there. We are at about 90% retention too. Overall though, the boys won in the end. They have a troop that THEY run (I sit in the back with the parents and the most I ever say to the anyone is 'let the SPL handle it' or 'go ask the SPL' all of my conversations are before or after the meetings). Well, I do a scoutmasters minute of course, but I even pass the announcements off to the boys. It has been an amazing two years, watching them go from constantly needing help, to doing it on their own. The pack we started was just extra, somehow we got convinced to do that, but I am now out of that, since I have been able to hand over the reigns and just work on the troop stuff. Yeah, 1 year, no drama. Boys are doing great. Hindsight is 20/20 and I would have done a lot of things differently, but even if I had I see all the paths leading back to here anyway. The only thing I would have done completely different is that I never would have chartered the troop under the second CO, I would have done a 'friends of' right then instead. I still would have gotten canned from the 1st pack, but hey, then I just would have chartered a pack as well at that point, and I would have saved myself and my leaders a LOT of headache. Thanks for all the advise. Even those that said 'are you sure it's not you?'. Because I wasn't sure at one point... who runs into that twice!?! And as a final note, we are on good terms with the new leaders in both the of the old units, and are recruiting from the second pack for our troop... that says something too.

BTW, that was a sincere thank you to everybody. And yeah, if anything else happens I will definately be walking away. But with what is coming next, I doubt that will happen. I think with everything it will be able to be worked out. At least I hope so, I've dealt with enough. I never mentioned this was a troubled unit to start with... hopefully now they are getting the help they need to deliver the program.

Okay. 1 pack for starting a new troop, 1 pack for making the phonecall about a boy being dehydrated and needing to go home. No troops chartered org in second unit is part of the pack (like dual roles in the top 5 positions) 3 leaders removed in the past 4 months by them.(This message has been edited by concscouter)

It's been a long time since I posted. We started the new troop, and noticed some 'quirkiness' with our new chartered org. It went downhill from there. Talk about out of the frying pan and into the fire. I tried to hold things together... but I was playing by a different set of rules... see... I don't lie to make myself look good and others look bed. Others, even in scouts, don't have that issue. What I completely don't understand is the power trip some people get in being the top dog in the volunteer side of the organization. Since we came over they have now fired 3 leaders, in the last 4 months, one of those leaders being myself, and 2 other transfer leaders. Why? Well... that is the part we can't get an honest answer on. Then they lied to the parents, multiple times. The reasons vary, but none of them are founded on anything other than they don't like us (leaders that came over with more experience) because they are intimidated by us. Why? I don't know, that part I can't figure out. But, your post have shown me it isn't worth figuring out, just letting them be, and if they bother me, moving away. The good news... we don't have these kinds of problems with the troop. The bad news... its the chartered org that has the presence in the pack and that is doing this. But.. I just read thru a lot of post, and there is one thing I would like to say. THANK YOU I see that it isn't worth the time to argue with the knotheads, if they decide to fire me and mine from the scout positions we will just move the troop, or the boys. they have managed to ruin my boys webelos year by firing his den leader (told to shut up about youth protection or get out), who he really liked. Again, thank you... I see what I have to do. they will burn out, and fade, and if they leave me alone, we will be just fine in the troop. just to add, at first I thought it was me, then with the last leader they were pretty much fired by email. that's when we had proof. of course, it doesn't mean anything anyway, except that we know it wasn't us now. That is a nice thing to know. It is so true, scouts would be a lot more fun without the parents. (This message has been edited by concscouter)

hmm... my post died... Anyway... we have engaged the new scouts and told them the program is theirs, we have explained the proper roles of the adults, as a guide, not a leader, the boys are responsible for their program, and our job is to make sure they don't fail and flail, but learning from mistakes is perfectly okay (within the realms of reason and safety of course). The boys have made decisions like neckerchiefs so far, and the SPL has started to design the program, he wants two months of cooking followed by a month of first aid to start with (I joking said, are you sure you don't want to cover burns and food poisining first). We are definately keeping the boys in the patrol method, and keeping the leaders out. One of the bylaws is that there will be only one scoutmaster and then one ASM per patrol (with one backup ASM), but committee members may be assigned to specific boys in leadership roles to assist them in learning their job this year, until the boys can start passing that knowledge down themselves. the troop we came from had at I think had 20 ASMs and 15 boys... and 3 committee members... something out of whack there. The boys are also taking part in writing the troop bylaws, how often elections are held, what are the requirements for position, a lot of the little details that are normally decided for them, and I think they are feeling a real sense of ownership of this troop, since it is their troop, not just a troop they joined that was already there and running. We (the boys) are planning hikes already, and I have asked the SPL to make some of the shorter hikes available to the webelos in our feeder pack to get them engaged in the troop. Part of the reason that the SPL wants to do the cooking classes is because I have also asked (at the request of the cubmaster) that the troop take the pack on a family campout in May, and that the boys would be running the campout for the younger boys. The boys have been, and I mean literally 'you mean WE get to take the pack out camping?' absolutely. This group of boys was responsible last campout for doing all the cooking for the entire pack and did an excellent job, so they are more than willing to bite off more. Of course, I will be asking the new webelos and bears to assist the some of the boys, but under the boys direction (but adult supervision). Amazingly enough we are picking up a troop that folded two years ago, we have full equipment for about 30 boys, plus we have funding already as well. Looks like the derby track will be a joint pack and troop fundraiser, so the boys will be able to earn money for summer camp as well. Overall, I think we are off to an excellent start. The only thing was that they boys wanted not only a patrol flag, but they wanted a troop flag. For their troop flag they chose a phoenix, as a phoenix is reborn from its ashes. Even 10-11 year old boys are more perceptive than parents think, they saw this coming before the leaders did I guess.

@eagle92 - you got it right on the money. It doesn't serve the entire district, just half of it. Wow, not only did I contact district, but so did several other units. For one day, the entire district turned upside down. I am on good terms with the old CO, and several other issues are being looked into. I don't know what is going to happen to the old pack, but I think we left them with just a few boys (I can't help it if the boys follow me). But, this all stems from the troop being mad that I might take all the boys, and their spitefulness (you hit it right on eagle92) and instead, they managed to destroy the pack that feeds them. Really smart, but here is the most important thing to me... Not my problem anymore. I can't fix everything, but I can make sure that in the new unit I just formed, I give the best program I can to the boys. I can commit to helping the feeder pack and support them in what they need. I know that may sound mean, and selfish, and maybe not scoutlike, but if they continue down the path they are following they won't be around much longer, so they won't tarnish scouting anymore anyway. It will burn itself out and resolve itself. thanks everybody for the kind words and support and reading my ramblings.

That's the plan!

This has been resolved, thank god. Why couldn't we do it? Because the first derby is a week from now, no time to order the parts.

No, that won't work... we run a bunch of derbies for other units, some numbering 80+ boys. But thank you...

If you read the rest of my post you'll the story, but the new pack leadership is leaving half the district high and dry. Is there anybody near STL that has a track with timer that can be loaned to another for 3 months. Yeah, I know it sounds crazy, but I am serious. The first derby is friday. Please somebody, HELP!

Well, not a happy ending... they just kinda said they cannot commit to the 28 derbies we had setup for fundraising. They took the equipment sunday, and then let the other packs known last night... mind you, first derby is Friday. OMG, this is insane. District is involved, chartering organization is involved. 1000+ cubscouts let down. I can't get a track till mid-feb. Anybody near STL that can loan me a track and timer for three months?

Wow, not really new to scouting but new here. I have asked a few opinions and really valued the advice that I have been given. I have been in scouting for 6 years now, and have seen some amazing stuff from the scouts, and some really insane stuff from the parents. We started in one pack, and ended up leaving that pack because it didn't work for my son. We moved to another and it fit us much better. But, when my son graduated to boy scouts out of cubbies, we ran into the problems of sexism and scouters that have been in the program for so long they have lost sight of the goals and methods and scouting and have started doing their own thing. Eventually, after a second set of standards and requirements were being used for 'the cubmasters son' my son decided that scouting was not for him. After a long discussion with him, we discovered it wasn't scouting, it was a lack of guidance from the adults and a lack of leadership from the boys. Dodgeball does not make a troop meeting. So, at the guidance of council, we formed a new troop. Well... the old school scouters didn't take too kindly to that and decided to do everything they could to get us removed from leadership. They did not succeed in the end. I was asked to come back as cubmaster, but I politely declined, citing that as long as the parents and leaders are involved who tried to fire us the first time are there, I couldn't lead that pack. So... we have landed with a new pack, our feeder pack for our troop. three fourths of the families have left with us, and all the leaders except the two that were involved and one who doesn't want to be involved (I don't blame her in any way). It is sad because it means the end of a functional unit, loss of some boys, and some friendships destroyed along the way. But, for the boys that remain, we will be able to deliver the program as intended, not what it has evolved to under the same leadership for 30 years which has lost the methods of scouting (uniforms is a method, right?). I am very trained, the only thing I have left to take being ropes course, teepee camping and woodbadge, which I intend to knock out in the next two years. This isn't the first time the old leaders have had issues, as a matter of fact, looking back at pack history, there are breaks 10 years ago and 5 years ago (we were never aware of that one). The troop is only composed of 25% of feeder pack boys, with most boys chosing to go somewhere else. Anyway, I love that someone put this resource together, and now that I have a lot of time on my hands, I will be happy to throw in advice for any who may need it. I have a lot of experience in dealing with districts and councils, and intra-pack disputes (yeah, the area I am coming from had a LOT of drama, and as I have read thru the forums, I have discovered that the amount of drama these people have around them is probably 5 to 10 times that what you see in a normal unit). I am so glad to be drama free, like it had been up until my boy joined the boy scouts (left cubbies). So, thank you all who have responded to my post before, I love that there are actually SCOUTS on this forum, giving their perspective as well and using the advice and tools here to solve their problems as well. It shows how strong the scouting program is that a young man will actually not back down and fight for what he thinks is right, and will share some of his more difficult experiences to help adults resolve theirs. I think this is a great thing someone has done, but I can see it only helps if we all chip in, and I will do my best (heehee) to try and pay forward the help and advice that was given to me here.

Well, follow up... all I can say is OMG! The CoR refused to return phonecalls. We started the new troop, the CoR got wind from the scoutmaster and went BALLISTIC. They waited for us to recharter the pack (needing me to charter as the trained cubmaster), then after that called me the day after Christmas and fired me. I sent a letter to all the parents... I was fired for a conflict of interest, my wife was fired for being married to me, and if she was a committee member even the committee couldn't say things (slander me) around her. My younger son should also find a new pack. They will take care of the other commitments we have going for us. Well... we start getting calls from parents and leaders... parents explain that their son was NEVER going to troop 200 after what they had personally seen, it was just nice that I had made a new troop to continue on. They ask if they can join the pack we are taking our son to. I have found out since then the principle parties in this, and the scoutmaster was given a transcript of the phonecall between me and CoR (excuse me?!?). Hmm... one of our leaders was suckered into helping, and was spreading all kinds of lies... too bad she got caught by every person involved, but some were so off and they had seen them with their own eyes. There were so many lies being told it wasn't even possible to get to the bottom of them all... the call was an interview, but they had called the 'new' leaders and informed them of our dismissal three days before that? The decision hadn't been made, but your telling a leader to remove the CC from the checking account?... wow. A call to the excectutive revealled that the CoR was NOT the CoR and was not speaking on behalf of the CO. Opps, she had no authority to fire me. I was asked 'do you want your job back'... my only response was... "I cannot work with the current troop leadership, and I will not be in a position where I am constantly getting calls from council about lies, so no, you need to remove the leadership of the troop, and I won't make you make that choice, I am going to go where I don't have this kind of drama, I am a volunteer, and this is not what I did that for" So... the good and the bad.. 1. We are in a new troop with a single small patrol... and the boys love the fact they are getting all the say in what is going on, as long as it is within scouts. 2. My leaders and cubs are now coming to the new troop with our son, to quote the boys 'scouting is scouting without those two'. 3. The old pack is down to 4 leaders and maybe 8 cubs 4. Several parents have dropped their kids from scouting, the dismissal of myself and my wife being a slap in the face and they have said if this is what scouting is they don't want to be part of it. 5. The CO will be becoming active with whatever remains of the pack, most likely they will ask the boys to move to their other pack (the CO has two packs) and fold that one. 6. The troop will still not get fed and will die off, as now they have no feeder pack at all, instead of getting at least a few boys. Talk about chomping on the hand that feeds ya! But hey, thanks for all your advise, I wish things could have gone better, but, even with hindsight there is nothing different I could have done... they made their choices. We look forward to a few more years of stress free scouting with people who are much into scouting and less into drama. and sorry i haven't posted anything else, I have been dealing with this for the past month, it is amazing how much energy it has taken up.

one thought, you might find out when your district roundtables are. If your just calling CMs blind you are not going to have any idea who you are dealing with, and everybody thinks their way is the right way. At the roundtables you will meet seasoned scouters who have roots in the local packs and can really point you in the right directions... you'll all meet CMs and know they are involved, because they are at the roundtable. That is really the sniff test... if they are attending training they are trying to do the right thing. Also, you might find out who is coordinating special needs packs/troops in the area. Some larger areas have packs that have parents with lots of experience with that kind of thing (I speak from experience there, we are one of those packs in our area). It's just a thought, when we started looking for a new troop the first thing I did was talk to the roundtable staff and find out the top troops in the area, and they had lots of great ideas.