Compass

tjhammer: But contrary to popular opinion that the BSA is under assault from the left and being drug in that direction, I tend to believe that the Christian majority is dragging our organization in their direction, to a place we have never been... being defined primarily as a "faith-based organization". I thought someone would see this thread in this light, that is why I focused my earlier posts on truth and trustworthyness rather than the merits of one faith or belief over another. See my post on Wednesday, October 30, 2002: 9:20:08 PM. You say: Of course, a Scout's Duty to God has always been a principle, and I personally support the concept that a faith in God is an important aspect of a good person. This implies to me that you are not personally being harmed by this part of the Scout program, and that you are favorably inclined towards it, as long as Christians (or any other group) don't impose their own beliefs on you or anyone else. I am not aware of where this is happening. I really don't see any changes to the program that assist Christians in this objective (imposing their own beliefs on others). If there are not specific changes, but a general concern, please realize that the forced entry of atheists into the program is likely to have a much more profound impact on the principles of the program that you are favorably inclined (faith in God is a good thing) than the possible (?future?) impositions by Christians. As I mentioned in my earlier post (cited above), when others start picking and choosing what parts of the program are valid, what parts are going to be affected? Which other parts are you and I willing to sacrifice as well, in the name of toleration of others' viewpoints?

Merlyn_LeRoy writes: compass writes: >Nothing is preventing these folks [atheists] from starting their own organization. True, however it couldn't be part of WOSM, since WOSM only allows one group per country and the BSA is keeping atheists out. An atheist can be a scout in other countries, but if they move to the US they can't join the BSA. There are similar groups that don't discriminate, like Campfire boys & girls. Scouting isn't everything nor the only thing. The world doesn't revolve around Scouting, nor is joining a requirement. Just as you point out, Campfire boys and girls are similar, and perhaps a suitable alternative.

Thank you, YoungBlood, for joining us. You, being young and a recent graduate of the program can offer a counterpoint to those that are of similar background but assert a different viewpoint from you. Don't be too troubled by what you read at this late point. When people run out of points to make and defensive tactics aren't especially effective, then name calling becomes the order of the day.

DeLukas: That they teach people to distance one self from and hate people who do not hold the same religous views as themselves? About the time this tread started. But since hate is not a value i have been ignoring your question You also ignore my answer in the earlier post that you reference. Merlyn_LeRoy's original post: "'Anybody that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen, and that if an atheist found a wallet on the ground they would pick it up, plunder the money and throw the wallet back on the ground.'" [reputed quote from Glen Schmidt] and: "Nothing to say about Glen Schmidt's obvious bigotry?" Which my reply was: "I can't verify the accuracy of the original quote, but I can comment: no, I do not agree with the original statement and characterization of atheists." I repeat these things because of your portrayal of me as being hateful. You know, DeLukas, it is easy to caricature people, to call them names like fascists and people haters, especially if you don't agree with them. I do not hate anyone, despite your opinion. I do believe I have freedom of religion and freedom to associate with whom I please. I practice this at church (both freedoms) and with friends, as I am sure you do. My son would be in a Christian-oriented troop (though, as I am sure others would point out, that I/we could not prevent a boy of a different belief from joining). Problem is, based on past rulings and practices, when an atheist is part of the group, you can't do or practice anything that smacks of religion-- even a moment of silence is offensive. Now realize, atheists won the earlier argument because the atheist student was compelled to attend public school classes and was, therefore, compelled to participate in a religious practice. That is not the case here. They insist on joining and being part of Scouts because it's a good program and (they assert) there are no equivalent alternatives. Nothing is preventing these folks from starting their own organization, but this means work on their part to do it. Is it just that they do not want to do the work? I wouldn't think so; I'm sure there are lots of hard working atheists with good organization skills. So, what is the point? Fifteen minutes of fame? To be the next Madalyn Murry O'Hair? Say if the Boy Scouts are compelled to allow atheists to join. What other groups now practicing free association and assembly must then permit atheists to join? Is insisting on joining a church the next objective? Then, when that is accomplished, no prayers, etc. are to be allowed because that would be offensive? This sounds absurd at this time, but I doubt that the reasonable people of that time who agreed with the earlier ruling would have imagined what has happened since. The presence of atheists ensure that ALL people of ALL faiths must comply with their wishes. (This message has been edited by Compass)

DeLukas: a picture does say a thousand words. You will note my picture. You might want to read my previous post. I edited it after you edited your earlier post.

DeLukas: Losing the argument means calling people names and getting out the crayons, doesn't it? By the way, I noticed you reprinted Merlyn_LeRoy's question. I answered it for myself earlier, but apparently neither of you two gentlemen noticed. My answer was: "I can't verify the accuracy of the original quote, but I can comment: no, I do not agree with the original statement and characterization of atheists." If you guys are going to poll each and every one of us, it's going to take awhile. While we're in to answering questions, how about you two gentlemen addressing one of two questions I asked of Merlyn_LeRoy earlier (you answered one, sir, but not the second). That question was: "At what point did you realize that the Boy Scout program had such values?"(This message has been edited by Compass)

(This message has been edited by Compass)

"Edit: again, Grammar is Hard" Reasonable discourse is harder, pal.

Let me say, folks, this has been an interesting discussion. I want to thank you all, especially those who disagreed with my position but had the character and decency to speak in a thoughtful and reasoning manner. I know that your position is as important to you as my position is to me. I know how hard it is to be restrained in one's approach when you disagree with others. Truly, I respect your right to believe your position and to express your beliefs, even when I disagree with them. Hooray for Scouting! Hooray for liberty and freedom of speech!! May God bless Scouting and all of you. (Oh my, there I did it...)

All: You know, I believe that this thread has gone far afield. Points in favor of Mr. Lambert and/or atheism in Scouting include: 1. Mr. Lambert sounds like a pretty good kid. 2. Everybody has a right to believe or disbelieve whatever they want. 3. Christians should not be imposing their beliefs on others, as they appear to do in Scouting and in this thread. 4. To deny Mr. Lambert his leadership position, or to deny atheists access to Scouting is bigotry. 5. Scout leaders can be/have been jerks. 6. It is illegal for U.S. Governmental bodies to sponsor Scouting, and soon all U.S. Governmental bodies will be compelled to drop Scouting as a youth program. My observations/opinions about these points: 1. So? 2. Not in Scouting; this was/is clear from the start for 90 years. 3. I/we haven't. Christians aren't the only folks that support this position in the movement. But, this is just intended to distract and deflect, anyway. 4. Bigotry is narrow-minded intolerance. Scouting is very broad minded-- all it expects is a belief in something. 5. Yes, some Scout leaders are jerks. So have some boys and young adults. So? 6. So? (I have a lot of indifference about this item especially. It appears to be a 'custard pie' to be thrown over and over with intent to annoy and distract rather than to persuade. So, in fact, it's not really a point of reason.) All of these points were presented with gusto and conviction, but are not totally relevent. Mr. Lambert lied. He knew what the program was about, and he lied pretty consistently until the Board of Review. Why did he 'fess up then? Was there real danger in not achieving his objective, the Eagle Award? Maybe. Or, maybe not. I would not assume this to be heroism on his part at this point; witness the comments made by one of the Board members-- he may have known very well who was going to be on the Board and their attitudes. Nevertheless, he still lied and lied to obtain the reward he sought. Further, his troop and its Chartering Organization lied by agreeing to follow the program and then ignoring a significant part of the program. These major points have never been addressed. Whether or not you agree with the 'A Scout is Reverent'/'Duty to God' tenet, Mr. Lambert failed in the 'A Scout is Trustworthy' category. This has always been my point, not that others have to believe in my God or my beliefs. Also, for others that believe that atheists should be allowed in Scouting, I still wonder: why are the other eleven points of the Law valid to you, but not the twelfth? Why is 'Duty to God' optional? Most importantly, WHEN did you start believing this? It is implied that Mr. Lambert believed this early on. Is this the case for you, too? If others are to accept your premise, where will you stand if others want to disregard other points of the Law or other aspects of the program (aspects that YOU care about)? Since Mr. Lambert and his troop/Chartering Organization have lied, these people are at the forefront in challenging the first point of the Law: A Scout is Trustworthy. How do you feel about that? These other aspects that you want, are they more valid because YOU support them? Who is an intolerant bigot then?

DeLukas: Oh, you think Im stupid and will fall into your trap. You want me to say, No lying is wrong. Then you say, Well he lied every time he said the oath. We will handle that in just a moment. No, I do not think you or any one else in this forum is stupid. And, no, no trap was planned, merely a point made. By the way, we're still waiting for you to 'handle' it. Hope you handle it a little better than your second post. Since you cracked open the dictionary to define 'reverent' and 'reverence' which included 'worshipful' as a synonym. Opening the dictionary again, the definition of worshipful is: Given to or expressive of worship; reverent or adoring. (American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition) Definition of worship is: The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object. (American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition) Also, thank you, but I don't want or need a cookie. You were the one that mentioned that you were an Eagle Scout, implying relevance (?and reverence?). And, yes, the twelfth point of the Scout Law is 'Reverent' and relevant to this issue. And 'Duty to God', in the Scout Oath or Promise, is relevent to this issue. Which, by the way, is one place where God is overtly mentioned. You are right in your definitions only if you divorce the Oath from the Law, and if you superficially define 'reverent.' This is taking words and phrases out of context in order to reinforce your position. By the way, you haven't answered the other question: When did you realize that a Scout was supposed to be Reverent? At what point did you realize that Scouting had such values? Was this a new relevation? Or, like Mr. Lambert, have you been 'glossing over' these issues in your own road to Eagle? You speak contemptuously about adult leaders and how poor they are. How do you feel about young people who lie for years so they can get their Eagle?

DeLukas: "During my years in scouting I came to hate most troop leaders." This very sad. "The leaders forget that they are there to help and teach the boys. Scouting should be about the boys, not the leaders and not the by-laws." Many do forget. However, there are always rules, regulations, procedures, by-laws, etc. everywhere and in everything. Most members of any group basically agree with and abide by the rules, etc. of the group. "To many scout leaders are the type of people who should never be given power over other people. They are close minded 'holier then thou' authoritarians who are more concerned that their commands are followed then if the boys are having fun and learning in a safe environment. Sure they come in with good intentions, but most show their true colors under pressure." Sounds like you've had some bad experiences with some bad leaders. Others, including myself, also have had bad adult leaders. "So he does not believe in a higher power . . . big deal. Here is something from a real Eagle Scout and not leader who pretends to be a boy scout. I'm a real Eagle Scout. For me, it is a big deal. You're not suggesting that lying is ok, are you? "Every scout breaks the oath. Every scout fails in one way or another. We are flawed human beings." We all make mistakes. Leaders are also flawed human beings. Do you have a problem with leaders because they, too, are flawed, or because they happen to disagree with your opinion in this matter? Are you implying Mr. Lambert is simply making a mistake, error in judgement, or whatever? We're not talking about a slip-up here. "There are few enough eagle scouts, and surely few enough who come back to teach other scouts. Every one of them is to be valued." I value all of the Eagle Scouts who hold high all the values expressed and taught in the Boy Scout program. "He has a flaw, great, we all do." I doubt Mr. Lambert would characterize his belief as a "flaw." "So to all you close minded 'holier then thou' authoritarian wood badge wannabe scouts, get bent. That goes double for the person who ask how this guy got eagle in the first place." You sound like you are very angry. I am sorry if you have misunderstood the nature of the program. When did you realize that a Scout was supposed to be Reverent?

Merlyn_LeRoy: "As usual, you, like so many other BSA supporters, turn a blind eye to this." Not blind, just indifferent. You brought it up, remember? "I guess you're not aware of the ACLU lawsuit to remove all BSA charters from government agencies..." No, not aware, but again, indifferent. "the rules by which the US government must act are also pretty obvious, yet the BSA continues to charter BSA units to government agencies that can't exclude atheists." I would say it's up to the Chartering Organization to understand the ramifications of chartering a Boy Scout troop. Remember, its not illegal for the Boy Scouts to operate this way, it's only illegal (your assertion) that these Chartering Organizations are operating Boy Scout troops. "Would you see anything wrong if government agencies ran youth groups that didn't allow Jews? Would you see anything wrong if public school ethics programs were run by people who considered no Jews to be good citizens, and all Jews to be dishonest?" Of course. As I said before, if you perceive that laws are being broken, feel free to take legal and/or political action. As I mentioned in my earlier post, some want to cherry-pick the program. Some also cherry-pick my earlier post when they respond to it. As I stated earlier: "I can't verify the accuracy of the original quote, but I can comment: no, I do not agree with the original statement and characterization of atheists." Let me ask a question: why would you want to associate with a group and program that you disagree? How about another: at what point did you realize that the Boy Scout program had such values?

Merlyn_LeRoy: "'Anybody that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen, and that if an atheist found a wallet on the ground they would pick it up, plunder the money and throw the wallet back on the ground.'" and: "Nothing to say about Glen Schmidt's obvious bigotry?" I can't verify the accuracy of the original quote, but I can comment: no, I do not agree with the original statement and characterization of atheists. "Nothing to say about the BSA's dishonesty in chartering units to government agencies?" I would say that the rules, policies and procedures are pretty obvious. If not, recent court cases make it so. Merlyn_LeRoy, I'm not sure about your point here. If you think something is wrong, if you think laws are being broken, I would suggest you take action and contact your Congressman or Senator regarding it. Of course, the judicial route is always available. "Perhaps one day you'll share a bond with your fellow human beings." I think most of us share a bond in Scouting and its program. As I mentioned before, some seem to say: "I love the program." -and- "I hate the program." -and- "I want the right to cherry-pick the things I want/like/need out of the program." And, most of all, "I don't want to create my own program that best suits my wants/likes/needs."

tjhammer: But I would wonder what the results of a calm, personal conversation with him would be if presented in this way: Nice thoughts but, with all respect, if he is a true atheist I don't think he would go for either the "higher power than self" God or the "Chevy Chevette" God. red feather: As an adult he is held to higher scrutiny... Actually, in this aspect, the scrutiny was supposed to be similar. le Voyageur: "My comments are directed to offset Ed's and Compass's biased viewpoints.." le Voyageur, friend, everyone's viewpoints are biased. That is the truth. Yes, I am biased towards the truth. Truth for me of course includes faith/religious truth, but that is not really my intended focus here; instead, I focus on this Mr. Lambert's careful avoidance of the truth, perhaps for a long time. I also focus on the institutional misrepresentation which seems to be happening at Mr. Lambert's troop, i.e., the charter orginization owns the troop and operates it with the proviso that they follow the Scouting program as defined by the BSA; the program, in a sense, is on conditional "loan": as long as they abide by and operate within the program, they (the CO) may use it. The truth is that they seemingly haven't done so, also for a long time (perhaps longer than Mr. Lambert's atheism). And so, for persons who are so carefree with the truth, one has to wonder where they stand on other issues. If someone lies to us or to someone else, don't we look at what they say in the future with some, mmm, bias? As far as evmori's and my remarks earlier, yes, we are "biased" in the sense we are concerned for Mr. Lambert's (really long-range) future. And yes, I freely admit to being biased, as I think and hope that all of you are, towards the Scouting program, which I/we believe is the best youth program on Earth.

evmori: "We need to pray for this man that he will see the error of his ways & will turn to God & ask forgiveness." Absolutely, Ed. And let us not forget to pray most fervently that, while Mr. Lambert and others like him are seeking to modify and/or destroy the BSA (for their own benefit and glory), that God will protect it and use it for His glory.

acco40: "Have some faith in your kids." Actually, my faith is in Jesus. Children can disappoint, but He does not. But, I know what you mean. Oh, I trust my children to a great degree. Especially as they get older-- they are more analytical as they mature. I just don't trust some adults, particularly the evil ones. "Many people that they meet and respect may have a different value system than their own (or should I say yours)." Absolutely. The problem as I see it is when charming adults are persuasive and influential, especially with younger, impressionable children, while they are simultaneously dishonest and/or not forthcoming about their own beliefs and agendas. I am assuming you not implying above that my children's beliefs and my own are significantly divergent. (No hostility on my part is implied, and no response is necessary if true.) "One of the beauties of Scouting is that it exposes my children to people of many different backgrounds." True. I appreciate honest exposure under conditions and environment supervised by me. What I abhor are adult "stealth bombers."(This message has been edited by Compass)(This message has been edited by Compass)

Respect. Respecting others. Repecting other's right to their beliefs. Definitions of Respect: 1. To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem. 2. To avoid violation of or interference with: respect the speed limit. Of course, we mean the second definition when we use 'respect' in this conversation. Problem is, the word also means the first definition. It's a subtle thing, but I believe it has affected our thinking as a nation, that we now tend to treat everyone else and their bad ideas/opinions/approaches with deference.(This message has been edited by Compass)

What if Mr. Lambert instead joined a church. Your church. He grows up in it, he really likes the program ("'Capture the Flag' was really great at Youth Retreat!"). He is liked and respected by youth and adults alike. He just glosses-over the God stuff. Oh, by the way, he's been your kids Youth Leader. For years. And boy, the young people in your church just love and respect him to death. "But I'm sure if he had to make the choice, Darrell or (?God?), he would choose you Darrell, hands down." Just because he's not a pedophile doesn't mean he's not harmful to my kids.

acco40: "You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs. Ok. To me, if you do not respect an atheist's beliefs, you do not follow the Boy Scout Oath. Not ok. I don't respect an atheist's beliefs, I respect his right to believe that there is no God. All: Isn't there always an odd dichotomy in these stories? "I love the program." "I hate the program." "I want the right to cherry-pick the things I want/like/need out of the program." And, most of all, "I don't want to create my own program that best suits my wants/likes/needs." Kinda like, "I love the Bible; I just hate all that stuff about God in it and everything."

And that's unacceptable to the Boy Scouts And at what point was this a surprise to Mr. Lambert? If he professed belief in a supreme being, it would be a lie. "I wouldn't be a good Scout then, would I?" he said. Excuse me, but he was already living a lie, therefore wasn't a good Scout for two big reasons. When the opportunity arose this fall to become a leader in Troop 1531, Lambert registered, "glossing over" the "declaration of religious principle" section on the form. There you have it. "It wasn't an issue," said Evie Mercer, who sat on the review board and is the mother of a 15-year-old boy in Troop 1531. In fact, because none of the adults asked about his nonbelief, Lambert brought it up during the board. "That to me said a lot about him," said Mercer. And that says a lot about them.

sctmom: The bathrooms have been locked! Simple solutions from simple minds. This is also the school where kids aren't allowed to go to their locker during the day. The hits just keep on comin'. I suppose that, when the principal has problems with his car, he just locks it and leaves it on the side of the road-- forever. The parents haven't been notified of any of this. Hardly surpising. Does this teach the children anything? You bet. It teaches them that, after puberty, some humans lose two-thirds of their IQ. Whatever our personal beliefs about the theory of evolution, some people demonstrate that, without question, devolution can occur in some people. Shouldn't something else be done before locking the bathrooms? Besides those suggestions mentioned earlier (especially the toilet water cleaning method-- priceless!), maybe some proactive hiring practices, like looking carefully into the background of principal candidates by those doing the hiring.

Patrol Flags: - Are designed by the patrol; everybody contributes some idea or part to the flag and its pole. Uniqueness is encouraged. (This is the first step of the members feeling 'ownership' and pride in their patrol.) - Tend to go everywhere the patrol goes. - Carry the ribbon awards or other trinkets that the patrol receives. - Can be used in troop ceremonies, such as Courts of Honor. - Can be incorporated in the patrol yell: everyone puts their hand on the flag/pole, 1-2-3-(throw up their hands)-YELL! - Can be retired to a place of honor when the patrol ceases to exist, and be used in future Court of Honor displays. I have given patrols a leather thong to go with their flag. Beads of different sizes, shapes, and colors are awarded to patrols by me or the SPL; the patrol then slides the bead onto this thong. I have, at times, braided small lanyards or other devices to award to a patrol, which is intended to go on the patrol flag pole. A wood burning tool or pocketknife can be used to inscribe meaningful events and/or dates on the pole. The pole can be made a certain length to assist the patrol in measuring the height of tall objects. It can be inscribed with inches and feet for smaller objects.

Times that I have witnessed patrol yells: - After the patrol receives an award or recognition/acknowledgement as a patrol. - After the patrol completes an event, for example at a camporee competition. - After the patrol goes through a uniform inpection. - Any time the patrol just feels like it (in a cave, on a cliff, in a canyon or ravine, anywhere there is a good echo, etc.). Lead by the patrol Cheermaster or Patrol Leader, usually it is expressed as a triumphant SHOUT! Falls under the categories of Scout Spirit and Patrol Spirit. Gets pretty interesting to see the patrols try to outdo each other. (This message has been edited by Compass)(This message has been edited by Compass)

I agree with others' statements before mine. Of course, the recommended practice is for the troop schedule to have monthly themes, such as Aquatics, Camping, etc., that may correlate to boys merit badge advancement. However, I am not implying that requirements are being passed-off during the meeting, but that instruction that may be applicable to one or more merit badge requirements probably will be given during the meeting. Any passing-off of merit badge requirements are relegated to outside the meeting itself; before the meeting or after the meeting is also ok.