CNYScouter

I had a discussion about patch placement on the new uniform with our local Scout Shop manager the last time I was there (and feel free to correct me if I am wrong). . This is not official but to me it matches what is shown in the picture of the right sleeve in the new uniform flyer. The council shoulder patch, veteran unit bar (if worn) and unit numerals (if worn) go in the same place as the old uniform. From the Leader Uniform inspection sheet: Left Sleeve Council shoulder patch is directly below the shoulder seam. Veteran unit bar, if worn, is centered and touching the council shoulder patch (above) and unit numeral (below). Unit numeral, if worn, is centered directly underneath and touching council patch or veteran unit bar. What is different: The Badge of office is centered on the pocket. The Trained leader strip is now centered on the pocket flap touching the top of the flap

Thanks for the replies. This in now a non-issue as the parent that was going with the Ship has now backed out. jblake47 wrote: ...and where was the new skipper of the old ship when you needed a second leader? Kinda makes one wonder what kinds of games are being played out here. The person who is now the Skipper was the Mate (asst. Advisor) when I was Skipper. She is in her 60's, a memebr of the CO, an empty nester and does not have a child in the Ship. In the spring she decided that she would no longer go on any of our trips and expected the parents to step up but none were willing but me. I see a lot of this happening with the Venturing Crews in the area. There are plenty of people will to help with the Crew specialty (sailing, shooting, golf, etc.) but when it comes to doing the Scouting side they want nothing to do with it. The Ship has more people than it could use when the weather got nice and would help out with sailing but they would disappear all winter to help keep things going.

In Oct. there is a Venturing Event in a council near us. Back in the spring when I first found out about this event I presented it to the Ship members to see if they were interested in attending. The youth wanted to attend but no other adult was willing to go. Shortly after this I received an email from a parent saying that she thought the Ship should no longer do any trips or overnights and only meet and do weekly sailing. It also seems that the parents didnt want a youth-run program but one that had every thing done for their kids (and not by them either, they expected me to do everything). After not being able to do 2 trips this spring because no other adult Leader/parent was willing to attend it looked like it had been pretty much decided that the Ship wasnt going to be doing any more overnight activities or trips. My son came to me and said that if all the ship was going to do was meet and sail he wasnt interested and could he check out other crews in the area. I couldnt agree more and because of this and other issues (and I have a son in Cubs this fall) in June I stepped down as Skipper. Currently I am not a registered Leader with the Ship, but my son is still a member. Due him being on staff for summer camp and football he hasnt been to a meeting since June and wont be able to attend another meeting until after Football is over around Nov. 1. Earlier this year my son hit it off with a Venturer (he always seemed to be at the same events/training/meetings we went to) who was going to be on staff with him at camp this summer and after meeting with the crew he belonged too my son asked if we could to start attending their meetings. They are going to attend the same Venturing event in Oct. and asked if he wanted to go with them. The Crew Advisor asked if I was interested going with this crew, to meet the two-deep leadership, as the usual leaders/parents that attend had scheduling conflicts, since it seemed the ship wasnt going I agreed. Last week I got a call from the new Skipper asking if I could go to the event. It now seems that another parent (and committee member) said they would go to this but they needed a second adult to go. I told them I had already agreed to go with another unit as a leader and they needed to find someone else. Last night I got another call from the Skipper saying that they had contacted the person running the event and this person had told them that I could go as the second leader for both units and that as long as I was in camp this wasnt a problem. This just doesnt seem right to me. What would be the BSA policy on this? Dont suggest combining the units. If the Ship wants to do this its up to them to contact the other Crew going to work this out. They are aware hat this is an option. Personally, I have a problem doing this as the Ship has gotten new youth members since I stepped down. None of the new members parents have signed on as leaders or are willing to go. Either are any of the CO members who are Mates or Committee members.

The Troop my son was in a Scout scheduled an Eagle project approval just like a BOR. BORs for this troop were done once a month right before the Committee meetings and required a Scout to sign up in advance. They could do the same for an Eagle Project approval. The same committee members that did the BORs for that month did the Eagle project approval and usually were just mixed in with the BORs. I agree with Lisabob in that generally it wasnt a stumbling block or inquisition but if the project didnt get approved by the unit it probably wont get approved at the district level either.

if anyone is interested the Lions Cub Program Leader's Book can be downloaded online: http://www.cnyscouts.org/forms/Lions%20Cub.pdf

A Committee member's signature is required in the Eagle project workbook before a Scout can begin his project. This can be downloaded at: http://www.nesa.org/how-to-manuals.html I know of a couple of Troops that require a Scout to present his Eagle Project Wookbook to the Troop Committee for approval before the CC or a Committee Member signs it.

I live in the NE and here are the costs for our council camps: Cub Day Camp 5 days (5 lunches and a youth T-Shirt included) - $110 Cub or Webelos Overnight Camps 2 nights (5 meals and a youth T-Shirt included) - $155 Cub Fishing or Shooting Camp 1 night (3 meals and a youth T-Shirt included) - $90 All the Cub overnight camps costs are for both a parent and a cub to attend. Boy Scout Camp is $265 6 nights (17 meals) per Scout.

At our last roundtable I sat next to someone on our District Advancement Committee. Both she and her husband have been on this committee reviewing Eagle Projects and doing EBORs for 25+ years. During a break we were talking with her about Eagle project ideas as my son is struggling with making his mind up about a project. The topic turned to the Eagle to Life Mentor. She said you would be amazed at the number of Scouts that turn in Eagle project workbooks for approval that are half filled out or missing required signatures and are rejected. The worst case just happen in June where a Scout had his project rejected and he had started before he had approval and had it finished. Usually none of these Scouts had been working with and Eagle to Life Mentor and tried to do it on their own. One of the other problems the Advancement Committee is encountering is that they meet once a month for project approvals and on a busy month they are trying to get through 7 or 8 projects and dont have enough time to do a good job with explaining the process to the Scout.

I missed the part about 3rd graders the first time I read it. After reading it again a couple of comments: I also have to wonder how much did these kids really learn? In 5 months they earned the Bobcat Patch, the Wolf Patch with Gold arrow, and silver Arrow, Bear Patch with Gold arrow, and an average of 11 silver arrows each. I just seems like an awful lot of requirements in a short period of time. This statement also stood out to me: I started poking around the Cub Scouting organization to locate 4 Lion Patches for the boys, working my way all the way up to the Cub Scout National Committee, and at each step I expected someone to say no, stop that, you cant do that, but I was floored by the support I got, I guess National is not very concerned if someone follows the program or not. As to the Lions Cub program: Yes we are in a pilot program. Ive heard rumors that we were asked to stop running the program but it is still being run this year. I dont know about the future of this program. The councils FD was the driving force behind this and he retired in July. This program is a LFL program and they have material available that our councils uses. If anyone is interested you may want to contact the LFL people in your area and ask to look at the program material.

Our council is now in the 3rd year of using the Lions Cub Program (Kindergarten). It is a LFL program. Dens, called Prides, go to a Pack meeting and have 2 meetings a month. A monthly trip or activity is optional. These are parent/child activities and use the shared leadership like Tiger Cubs. Pride meetings are to be only 45 min. long. A sample Pride meeting theme on Citizenship would be saying the Pledge of Allegiance, a simple explanation of the American Flag, a game and the activity would be to color a picture of the flag. Our councils FD was at Roundtable and said that last year we had over 200 Lion Cubs in the council. He also said that they have a 95% retention rate so far. I talked with a Cub Pack Leader who has been using this program since the begining. Because this program eases a parent into the Cub Scout program they have had good success in recruiting Lion Cub parents to be Pack leaders and helping out once they become Tigers.

I have been asking myself a lot of the questions everyone has posted. It is just frustrating that it seems that all the units near me are off doing there own thing. I want to keep my son in a Pack within the school district but our schedule conflicts with too many activities with the other Packs. I think in every unit I have been with there has been a least one Leader who has the you dont need training attitude. The first Troop my son was with both the SM and CC had this attitude and it has been well over 10 years since some one from this Troop has had SM training. Heck, this SM is also the Boy Scout Roundtable Commissioner and he wanted to eliminate all training (such as NLE or YPT) from Roundtable. I know that if I am the Tiger DL I can make the program fun and at least keep the Den following the BSA program. As this is the 3rd time through the Cub program I have a pretty good idea on what to do. I have to say that I have been a CC before and wasnt very good at it. But I have had lot more experience and training since then (Wood Badge for one) and have a lot more tools to use now. Also if I take on the CC role, I will pretty much be the Tiger DL (or spending a good deal of time training them) as I have been through it before. I have to say the thing I dont like doing as the CC is the recharter and with the mess the recharter is in I dont know if I it is something I want to take on. The Pack at the school my son attends folded years ago and I dont know the parents and my son doesnt know any of the cubs. My older kids know some of the older brother and sisters of the cubs I also just realized that when I went to the council office to sign my son up for Cub Camp the registrar had no record of this Pack. I now know why, with no charter in they have been dropped as an active unit. This is similar to the Pack my sons was in. A control freak did everything and wanted no help. I think the thing that concerns me most is that this group is assuming everything will work itself out and flow as smoothly as before. With all the new and untrained leaders I dont see things working out this way. I didnt even ask about Tour permits. I just assumed it was like every other unit I have been involved in and they didnt do them. The only tour permits that have been turned in with any other unit I have been in have been the ones I filled out. I think this really shows the state of the District. The recharter was due in Feb. The new Pack leadership had no idea this hadnt been done and it took until August before anyone contacted him. I sent an e-mail to the DC and asked him to contact me about this situation and if he could send me contact info for the UC. Its been 4 days and I havent heard from him yet. I also contacted a UC in this District I know from training staff. I let him know what the situation is and asked if he could bring this up at the next commissioners meeting.

The committee is being controlled by an untrained den leader out of sheer force of personality and little vey knowledge of scouting. (/i> I think BW you hit the core issue right here. This pack is big enough to recruit the nessesary leaders but this DL is going to be tough to deal with? What can you do with some like this?

My youngest will be a Tiger Cub this fall. I want to keep him with kids in our school district and only one Pack (of 3) in the district fit into our schedule. Last week I attended the Packs first Leaders meeting of the year. On the way in I went past a guy rummaging through a bunch of boxes in the back of his station wagon. This turned out to be the Pack leader (more on this later). There were 8 people at this. The Pack Leader (was a Tiger Parent last year took over in June) Myself and a parent of another Tiger. (She is new to Scouting and willing to assist as ADL) 2 co-den leaders of one the Bear den (both new as Den leaders but were on the committee) WEBELOS 1 den leader (has been Den Leader since Tigers) WEBELOS 2 den leader (New this year) The Pack has 16 Wolfs (2 Dens) and no Den Leaders. The other Bear Den Leader has been the DL since Tigers. There is no Committee Chair. Some time in the past it was decided that one wasnt needed and that the Pack Leader would be CM/ CC and some of the CC duties would just be split between the rest of the Leaders. The WEBELOS 1 leader was adamant about not needing a CC. No one even knew who was listed as the CC on the charter and had to look it up. They just picked one of the parents and put their name down. Committee Members are listed on the charter but none are active (they did the same as a CC). I went there to be the Tiger Den Leader and was offered the position of CC. When I told them I was willing to be the CC or the Tiger DL, but do to my other Scouting commitments I did not have time to do both, the WEBELOS 1 leader spoke right up and said we dont need a CC, hes the Den Leader. This meeting turned out to be the Packs Yearly planning session. The reason the Pack Leader was going through the boxes he admitted that he had no idea what was in them or what he needed to bring into the meeting. It seems that the last Pack Leader just handed him all this stuff and said good-bye and moved up to a Troop. He also said that he received a call from the DE and the charter had never been done in the spring. He had just found it in one of the boxes. On top of this, the last Pack Leader never turned in the applications from last year so almost half the Pack isnt on the charter. I can see an experienced Scouter being able to handle the dual role as CM/CC, which the last person was, but someone new would really struggle and it was clear to me that this new person was overwhelmed. A couple of the new leaders made comments about not knowing what to do. When I mentioned that there is training available for the new leaders the WEBELOS 1 leader interrupted and said You dont need training, its all in the books. As long as you are there for the boys thats enough. I found out not a single leader has had any training, not even youth protection. Not everything is bad. They are organized and have enthusiastic people who are willing to be leaders. They use the Program Helps for meetings which does do a great deal of the planning for you. They do go camping as a Pack (but do not have a BALOO trained person.) and have a good schedule with active participation with most Cubs and parents. The CO/COR for this Pack is hands off. There is no UC for this Pack. The DC for the district is pretty useless (I talked with him in the past and have gotten no where) and has no idea who the unit commissioners in the district are. DE for this district has been ineffective and is on his way out. I dont want to go in with Guns A Blazin but as an experienced leader, who has been in a similar situation, I see the possibility for some real issues shortly down the road that could really effect the program. Because things ran smoothly in the past none of the current leaders see any problems but with all the inexperience I dont think its going to be easy. I also see some head butting between myself and the WEB1 leader. I really do not want to take my son to a Pack outside the school district as these kids will be all in the same school together once they hit middle school in 5th Grade. Where do you begin in this situation? Oh, Ya! I am off to Cub Scout Shooting camp with my Tiger this weekend!

To me it sounds like your troop needs to stop using the Troop method and start using the Patrol method. It usually works that the older Scouts are doing the more adventurous activities but it doesnt have to be that way The older Scouts in a Venture patrol can do the level campgrounds accessible by car and flat calm water. I think that High Adventure is often pushed to much, not every Scout wants to go to Philmont and finding their interest is important. Perhaps you can challenge this group in other ways than High Adventure. Teach them to cook in Dutch Ovens or other ways to improve their cooking skills or another Scout skill. I think this is where sitting down and talking with the older scouts (let them do 99% of the talking) and finding out their interests and then come up with ways to challenge them Let your regular patrols do the more High Adventure activities and New Scout patrols (NSP) do levels You are correct in saying that it will be tough -- even for the ones who acknowledge the lack of skills -- for them to acquire those skills in the time left. As it has been said on his forum many times, the older scouts are not going to like change. Work on keeping the older scouts interested and coming and start changing your program with the younger scouts. But, the worst part is that some of the most senior Scouts aspire to the Troop Guide and Troop Instructor POR's, and want to 'teach' the younger Scouts. Just because they want these positions doesnt mean you have give it to them if they dont have the skills. But dont give up you might be surprised how fast these skills appear or are relearned once they really have to know them

The first place to check for questions like this is the Guide to Safe Scouting or G2SS. there is an online version and one that can be down-loaded to view offine. This can also be purchased at a Scout Store. It is updated every year. http://www.scouting.org/HealthandSafety/GSS/toc.aspx In the Appendix there is Age-Appropriate Guidelines for Scouting Activities http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/ageguides.pdf For archery - Target, Action (Moving targets) at the Cubs Scout level is at Council/District Outdoor Programs Only. Field Archery is not done at the Cub Scout level. Climing is OK for all levels (Tigers w/ an Adult Partner) at a Commercial or Horizontal Wall.

Too many conflicting interpretations, Its kind of like interpreting the US Constitution, it depends on how narrow or broad a meaning you give to things. In an Eagle Service project an event? When I read this I think of an event as something like going to Jambo or Seabase or summer camp, not an Eagle Service project. In a broad interpretation an Eagle project could be a personnel event but what I read into this is that an individual Scout can not raise funds for himself to attend something. On the other hand, cant materials and supplies be seen as gifts? If an Eagle project is outside the sphere of Scouting why cant money be solicited? (as long as its done in the name of the other organization) In the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook it does stay that fund-raising is permitted only for securing materials or supplies needed to carry out your project. It would seem that a Scout could say that they were doing a project for the XYZ Organization as an Eagle Scout project. When my son gets back from summer camp he will begin the process for his Eagle project. I am still not sure about this one but I think the important thing is that myself and my son know exactly what our District looks for in a Eagle Service Project. Our district (Ok I know, not a National document but it does show how our district interprets these policies) has put out a Life to Eagle Mentor book that puts all of this type of information on the Eagle process in one place. It also gives guidelines on what the District EBOR looks for in an Eagle Project. Under fundraising it states: The project may not be a fund-raiser. It may be necessary, however, to engage in fund-raising activities in order to facilitate the purchase of materials or supplies necessary to carry out the project. In that instance the Scout should advertise this fund-raising as benefiting his Eagle Scout project. Donations of materials or supplies may be requested. Funds (cash) may not be directly solicited.

BW, I have looked through the three resources and have found all of the answers except: Can a youth identify himself as a Boy Scout when seeking donations for an Eagle Project? You answered: NO, a person cannot seek donations for an outside organization using the name and image of the BSA unless it is a BSA activity approved by the council scout executive or the national office of the BSA. Eagle Scout projects are "outside the sphere of scouting" You have given answers for this question but I couldnt find in the thread where in the resources you gave where you found this answer. I found in the ACP&P on page 27 where is says that the Eagle project is outside the sphere of Scouting but can not find where it says a person cannot seek donations for an outside organization using the name and image of the BSA unless it is a BSA activity approved by the council scout executive or the national office of the BSA. Can you give the resource and location of this statement? jet526 gave a reference to the Bylaws of the Boy Scouts of America but that is not one of the references you said that we could find this in. Maybe I am just missing it but the closest thing I can find is from the Unit Money-Earning Application #34427B 6. If a commercial product is to be sold, will the fund-raising activity comply with BSA policy on wearing the uniform? The official uniform is intended to be worn primarily for use in connection with Scouting activities. However, council executive boards may approve use of the uniform for any fund-raising activity. I would like to use these questions in training but want to make sure that I have the correct location where to find the answers.

dampcamper wrote: What is the procedure to remove a scoutmaster that clearly doesnt belong in charge. After reading through this thread I'm curious: What has this SM done that shows clearly he doesnt belong in charge?

According to the BSA 2007 annual report there are 1.2 million adults and 2.8 million youth (4.0 million total members). I see unit positions being created but no mention of training courses being created Will every Parent be required to register as a PA? Will they be required to take Fast Start, YPT and NLE? If not, I dont see any use for this position except to Pad adult numbers. Doesnt a unit have a person whose job is to be a Parent Coordinator? Isnt one of the jobs of the CC to make sure the unit has the resources to run a Scout program which would include getting parents involved? I always though it was the SMs job or an ASM designated by the SM to introduce the Boy Scout and Troops program to the new parents. Why does the Parent Coordinator need to be a required position and not just registered as a Committee Member? It would seem that if the BSA was going to add positions we would see codes for Treasurer and Secretary which I think are more important positions to have than a Parent Coordinator. Will this required position be the same as the required Pack Trainer? I only know of a couple of Packs that actually have one of these. Unless they are specified on the Charter as required, such as SM or CC, I dont see many units fulfilling the PC position.

Eamonn gave me a great activity for teaching the planning process that I have used in Crew/Ship Officer training. Have the Scouts write a plan to make a desert and then make it. Eamonn suggested making a pie. If you are worry about time have them make Brownies. I could see this being done with a Dutch Oven Cobbler also. Have them first write out the plan; be sure to have them assign duties of who is doing each step. When the plan is finished, pull out the ingredients and have them follow the plan and make the desert. I found that I could easily fit another training module in while it is cooking. When the desert is done cooking, use it for the break time snack. During the break lead a reflection on what worked and what could have been done better.

Here is data from the 2000 US Census for BSA membership: 1970 - 6,287,000 members in 157,000 units 1975 - 5,318,000 members in 150,000 units (-15% in members, -4.5% in units from 1970) 1980 - 4,318,000 members in 129,000 units (-19% in members, -14% in units from 1975) (-31% in members, -18% in units from 1970) 1980 to 1999 it shows a increase every year 1999 - 6,248,000 members in 145,000 units http://www.allcountries.org/uscensus/443_boy_scouts_and_girl_scouts_membership.html (This message has been edited by CNYScouter)

I would contact your UC or Training Chair and ask them to run the supplemental training module for Scoutmaster Conference Training for the Troop. This module will teach Scoutmasters, assistant Scoutmasters, and other troop leaders about the purposes of the Scoutmaster's conference and will offer suggestions for questions that could be asked at these conferences. The link to the syllabus is: http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/trainingmodules/scoutmaster%20conference%20training.aspx Not only will everyone be on the same page but will hold SMC's per BSA guidelines.

I havent attended any Venturing only weeks so I cant comment on this. I have looked at what is available out there and many of these programs look really good but I havent had the opportunity to attend one. I did talk with a Skipper from Maryland who has two or three Sea Scouts every year attend the two week long Road to Ranger program at the Goshen Scout Reservation in VA. Sea Scouts form this ship keep going to this so I have to think it is a pretty good program. As to whether a Venturing Crew should go to a resident camp or create their own capstone activity it will depend on the capabilities of the crew. I am putting together a Venturing Roundtable (or Forum) on Planning High Adventure. In the Venturing Roundtable (or Forum) Guide it does suggest that a new crew go to a pre-arranged or planned program before trying to create their own Super-Adventure.

I like Eagledads idea to call an adult meeting and teach everyone how the BSA suggests the SM holds a Scoutmaster Conference. After being involved with a unit like this, it is very likely a chance that you will get resistance to training and trying to get them all to take 8 hours of training nearly impossible. You may want to consider having your UC or one of your district trainers come in and do the Supplemental Training Module Scoutmaster Conference Training This module will teach Scoutmasters, assistant Scoutmasters, and other troop leaders about the purposes of the Scoutmaster's conference and will offer suggestions for questions that could be asked at these conferences. The time required to do this is only 1 hour which you may find it easier to schedule and more people willing to attend. Supplemental Training Modules are found at: http://www.scouting.org/BoyScouts/TrainingModules.aspx I do applaud you for trying to move your unit towards using the BSA guidelines. (This message has been edited by CNYScouter)

The online version of the guide to safe scouting is at: http://www.scouting.org/healthandsafety/gss/gss01.aspx look under I. Youth Protection & Adult Leadership Barriers to Abuse Within Scouting The BSA has adopted the following policies to provide additional security for our members. These policies are primarily for the protection of our youth members; however, they also serve to protect our adult leaders from false accusations of abuse. Note: Bold type denotes rules and policies. Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a participant, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required on all trips and outings. The chartered organization is responsible for ensuring that sufficient leadership is provided for all activities. (This message has been edited by CNYScouter)