clemlaw

I wrote the following response prior to realizing that this was an old thread. So feel free to ignore any instances of beating a dead horse. For those who think "contracts" are a good idea, then this implies the possibility that a Scout will say the following: "Mr. Scoutmaster, I have drafted this contract that outlines my expectations from the adult leadership. I will assume my duties as soon as you and the committee chair sign. Here's a pen." In troops with "contracts", is that what happens 50% of the time? If not, then I submit that these aren't really "contracts". Instead, they are lists of rules imposed by the adult leadership. Now, there's not necessarily anything wrong with rules being imposed by the adult leadership. But if that's what it is, then we should at least be honest and use the right terminology, rather than pretending that they are "contracts". Kudu: "Introduced in the year of Green Bar Bill's retirement: A required POR is the tool by which "leadership" experts destroyed the Patrol Method" Thanks for confirming what I was wondering about. I made Eagle in 1978, and as far as I know, there was never any "POR" requirement. There was a requirement to be active in the troop for ___ months since the prior rank, but no requirement to hold any particular position. It seemed to work just fine. Every Scout the rank of Star or above was generally engaged in "leadership", even though most of them didn't hold any particular office. They exerted this "leadership" simply by being good scouts, and being around younger scouts. They just did normal Scout things. Younger Scouts got to see them. Sometimes they specifically tried to teach or demonstrate something. But mostly, they exerted their leadership simply by doing things. At our Cub Scout committee meeting, the Scoutmaster of "our" troop (it's a pretty good troop, so I haven't yet broken the news that they're not necessarily "ours") mentioned that he has Scouts who "need" a POR, so he made known that they have Den Chiefs available. If a Scout wants to be a Den Chief, that's great. But it seems awfully counterproductive to me to have Scouts be Den Chief simply so that they have something to do for rank advancement. Here's my definition of leadership: My first year at summer camp, I was 11 years old. One of our scouts was either 17 or 18, and it was probably his last summer camp with our troop. He was either Eagle, or became Eagle shortly after that. I had dutifully followed the packing list of what I was supposed to bring with me, and I had a duffle bag weighing about a hundred pounds. Our campsite was about a hundred miles away from the parking lot, and we had to carry all of our junk there. It wasn't a pleasant task for an eleven year old kid. I was struggling trying to drag my bag along. If I had gone another ten feet, I probably would have broken down in tears and just given up on this whole Boy Scout thing right then and there. This Scout came up behind me, and said only, "here, let me give you a hand with that." Even though he was already carrying a full load, he just threw it over his shoulder and kept on going. IMHO, that is "leadership". Chances are, he had no idea what a great thing he had just done. As far as I know, he didn't hold any "POR" other than "older scout", and this wasn't in his job description. He hadn't signed a contract, and if he had, it wouldn't have said anything about being a porter for the new Tenderfoots. But he was even more than a leader--he was a hero, as far as I was concerned. CHLees3rd: "Scoutmaster-assigned leadership projects can only be used in place of a POR for the Star and Life ranks, not Eagle." IMHO, that makes no sense at all. If I were in charge, if anything, it would be the other way around: For Eagle, it could be a significant project that benefits the troop, even if it doesn't fit one of the "official" POR's. On the other hand, for Star, it would be acceptable to serve in a POR with minimal responsibility, such as Den Chief, Troop Librarian, etc. Among other things, I was Troop Librarian as a Scout. My job consisted of finding a place to put the box full of merit badge books, and occasionally checking one out to another Scout. In fact, I outdid all of my predecessors by actually putting them in alphabetical order. If I had been told that I was partially fulfilling a rank requirement by watching over this box of books, I would have gotten the impression that the program was pretty lame. As it was, it was just a fairly minor task that needed to be done, and I was quite happy to get a cool patch to put on my uniform in exchange for doing it. I hope that at some point I was the hero of some other Scout. I don't remember when it was. But the guy who became my hero by picking up my duffle bag probably doesn't remember doing that, either. But I doubt if I became a hero in the course of fulfilling my duties as Troop Librarian, even though that "counts" as a POR, and carrying another Scout's duffle bag doesn't.

Under the general heading of "Be Prepared", it's always nice to know that there are multiple methods of accomplishing the same task. This is more important than mastering one method, even if that method happens to be the best. That's probably the most important thing I learned from Scouting. I've applied it many times to things totally unrelated to anything I learned as a Scout. Increasingly, I've noticed that people tend to become fixated on doing things one particular way. When, for whatever reason, they're not able to do it that way, they don't stop to think whether they can accomplish the same thing with what they have. Someday, a Scout might want to cook an egg and not have a frying pan handy. It would be nice to know one method that does not require the frying pan. Or more likely, he'll have some other job. Maybe he'll be a surgeon or an engineer or a ditch digger. For whatever reason, he won't be able to use the "right" tool to do the job. But chances are, the Scout will be more likely to look around and realize that there is some other tool that he can use as a substitue. In my experience, people who were Scouts are more likely to be able to make these kinds of substituions, often in areas that have nothing to do with anything they learned in Scouts. And it's probably because someone showed them some trick like cooking an egg in a plastic bag, even though it took five minutes longer to do it that way. Yes, the mess kit probably works better than the plastic bag. But it would work even better just to stay home and have Mom cook the egg. We do it the harder way because it's more fun. And in the process, we learn how to Be Prepared. Incidentally, I've cooked things in plastic bags before, but I'm definitely going to try the paper bag trick.

>>>We are speaking of small knot devices, small pins which are worn on the knot to indicate earning more then one award represented by the knot in different programs.

What exactly is a "device"? Am I supposed to have a "device" to indicate that I earned my religious award as a Boy Scout? (Incidentally, that was the only way to do so, since, as far as I know, there was no such thing as a religious award for Cub Scouts back then.) I'm not going to run out and buy a "device", but I'm curious to know what it is. If I'm not going to get one, I really ought to know what it is that I'm not getting. And how much does the "device" cost? A Scout is Cheap....I mean Thrifty, so I balked a little bit at paying $1.49 for my Arrow of Light knot.

Yes, I'm not sure I understand why the mere possession of a cel phone is a "safety" or "youth protection" issue. Like many things, such as knives, axes, saws, matches, etc., they can be used in an unsafe manner. But it seems to me that banning the unsafe or inappropriate use is better than an outright ban. If the scouts are spending all of their time yakking on the phone, then I suppose you could tell them to leave them at home. But it's not a "safety" issue. On almost every recommended packing list I've ever seen for Scout camps and activities, both as a youth and as an adult, a camera is listed. So I'm not sure I understand the logic of banning phones, because they can be used as cameras, when cameras themselves are allowed. And as I read the rule above, it does not say that you're not allowed to use the latrine if you happen to have a camera on your person. It says that you shouldn't take pictures of people in the latrine, which comes under the general heading of common sense.(This message has been edited by clemlaw)

I put my 1973 Jamboree patch on my Tiger Den Leader uniform. Someone here on the internet said it was OK, which was good enough for me. I probably won't keep it there permanently, but I want to give people a chance to see it. It's served as a conversation starter on a couple of occasions. It also gives other people fair warning that I might be senile. Personally, I'd find it a little bit pretentious to wear any medals on my uniform, whether or not it's proper, and this would be especially true of anything earned as a youth. The only exception I would be comfortable with personally would be wearing my Eagle medal to an ECOH. I do have the square knots for AOL (which I was kind of suprised to learn existed), Eagle, and youth religious emblem. IMHO, a Blue and Gold is supposed to be a fun event for the Cub Scouts, and not an occasion for adults to break out old regalia. But then again, I'm slightly hypocritical, since I do have that 1973 Jamboree patch.

>>>>>I always pack a few cans of cheap beef stew or some rather nasty freeze dried stuff in the truck. It ain't gourmet, but it fills.

I can only speak from my own personal experience. But as far as I know, I had the best Patrol Leader in the history of the BSA. I really don't remember if he was elected by the Patrol, or appointed. Even if he was elected, the Scoutmaster was very sneaky and ensured his election. When I joined, I was in 5th grade. The patrol had about 4 or 5 members who were in 6th grade, and one member who was in 7th grade. I joined an existing patrol, but I think the 6th graders had only been around a couple of months. The 7th grader was probably First Class or Star, and he had excellent scouting skills, and he learned excellent leadership skills. He was obviously enthusiastic and excited to take on the leadership role. I think that was an excellent method--plant an experienced scout who wants to take on the challenge, and let him run with it. I never got the impression that we were the "new scout patrol" even though that's what we were in reality. A couple of years later, the patrol leader had moved on to the "Leadership Corps", the patrol had some new scouts, and I went on to become the second best Patrol Leader in the history of the BSA.

>>>>>as to teaching them a stroke to keep their head out of the water - this will not work!

Frankly, I found it too painful to read all the way to the end. I suspect you're probably right, and they're probably wrong. But at this point, I don't think it really matters. Your son needs to find a different troop. If it's the same CO, and they expect the Pack to be "feeding" the Troop, then it's probably time to find a different pack.

>>>>>They're selling DIRT and you guys wonder if it's a rip off?

Now, granted, since I'm not a criminal, I might not always think like a criminal. But if I were going to run a scam involving bottles of dirt, rather than just taking the money and running, there's really not a lot of downside to taking the money and sending the customer their bottle of dirt. We even have a brand of beer called "Summit", so I could get the bottles cheap.(This message has been edited by clemlaw)

If, at any point, a Scout says, or even thinks to himself, "my arm is a pretend cannon, and this sock is a pretend cannon ball", then the arm becomes a simulated firearm pointed at a human participant, and everyone needs to go home immediately. (Yes, that was a joke.) I noticed that in our Council, one of the prizes for selling enough tons of popcorn (which our Pack thankfully doesn't do) is a marshmallow gun. As the late Billy Martin would say, you could put an eye out with that.(This message has been edited by clemlaw)

I'm so old that when I was a kid, we didn't have rocks and sticks to play with. We had to play with toys, but we had fun! Kids these days have everything.

Maybe they should bring back a marketing slogan I recall from a 1970's era BSA catalog: "It's tops if it's official!" Just the same, though, I probably won't be asking Santa for one.

Oh, I get it. In our case, it will be one price, no matter how many kids, but we're on our own for food. But yes, the day camps we've been to sometimes get a little bit pricey when we bring the whole family. I do have a correction to my post above. It turns out there is a dining hall, and it looks like we can eat there if we want to. It's only four miles away, so maybe we'll hike over there for lunch. I don't think there's an open field, though.

I'm also counting the days until Clemlaw, Jr., goes to Scout camp for the first time. I have this nagging suspicion that I'll get my arm twisted into being an ASM. But if not, what a peaceful week that will be. If I do get my arm twisted into going along, then it will definitely be a peaceful week for Mrs. Clemlaw, and I doubt if she will want to tag along. As I mentioned above, I'm naturally grumpy, so she'll be free of both of us for a week.

Thanks for the firsthand information. Was it Many Point where you went? We now live in what used to be Indianhead Council, but I grew up in Minneapolis, so my experience with a youth was with Many Point. Uh, oh, now I have that song stuck in my head again...."Many Point Scout Camp, that's the place to be....."

Well, they definitely don't have a dining hall, and I'm pretty sure they do not have an "open field" anywhere nearby. The program consists mostly of having the beach staffed for the majority of each day. But we'll be sleeping in a--gasp--tent trailer, and we might even turn on the electric lights while we get ready for bed! And some of our cooking will be over a--gasp--gas stove! (But it's my understanding that Scouts do most of their cooking that way these days.) And I hear they have one of those newfangled "flush toilets", a shower, and a machine you can put your dirty clothes in and have them washed automatically! So I apologize for this camping experience being insufficiently pure. We should probably just do like most other people and stay home. But yes, I do want to share with my family what our council has available. It sounds like our council camp is quite a bit better than yours, though, since it's not just open fields, dining halls, etc. Basementdweller, what do you mean the cost goes up? You just mean that it's more expensive this year than it was last year? I think ours went up about $10 over last year, but it still looks like a bargain. And by the way, I'm naturally grumpy, so I don't sing while sitting around a fire, anyway. (This message has been edited by clemlaw)

I'm not sure I understand the problem. He's already had the requirements signed off. If you don't believe that he has fully met those requirements, there is nothing stopping you from giving him whatever additional training you think is appropriate. After you do so, you're not allowed to sign off those requirements. But you don't have to, because they're already signed off. If you wish, you can go over these requirements prior to the Pack meeting where he gets the award. That way, it is earned to your satisfaction, it's signed off to the Council and Pack's satisfaction, and your son gets the belt loop.

Actually, it seems to me that they should be able to _almost_ complete the requirement without getting their face wet, if they can swim 75 yards using the side stroke or breast stroke. Once they have learned how to swim 75 yards, I suspect most of the fear will be gone, and they will then be able to do the "jump into water over your head" requirement without difficulty (which will probably entail getting their face wet). Unless these kids have some documented medical issue (which seems very unlikely, since there are two that just happen to be in the same troop), then it seems to me that the most rewarding thing they will get out of Scouting is learning how to swim. I suspect they just need a patient teacher, which their troop probably doesn't have. The actual lessons don't need to be done through Scouting. I suspect there are some swimming instructors in the community who are good at working with kids like this. To earn swimming (and lifesaving) merit badge, the Scout needs to be a _good_ swimmer, and I suppose being a _good_ swimmer isn't absolutely necessary to Scouting. This is probably why those merit badges aren't required any more. But the requirements for Second Class and First Class are the minimums to make sure that someone is safe around the water, and that is necessary to Scouting. It sounds like you already know about resources available to help these kids learn how to swim, and they will be much better served by making those resources known to them, rather than trying to figure out a way around the requirement.(This message has been edited by clemlaw)

>>>>we will loose the boys to boredom. But, I've also lost potential Scouts because they couldn't stand the bugs, "non-mom" meals, etc.

The words "family camp" mean a few different things in the BSA, so I should clarify which one I'm talking about. Our council's summer camp has a "family camp" which is intended primarily for families of Scouts and Scouters whose troops are camping there that week. They have programs which appear to be geared for kids 10 and under, the younger siblings of the Scouts. They have both cabins and RV/tent sites. This happens to be the camp where my troop went most summers when I was a Scout. If the spots aren't taken by a certain date, they are then opened up to families of any registered youth or adult member. I noticed that the suggested packing list included Cub Scout uniform and Cub Scout book. It looks like a great program (and very inexpensive--about the same as our state parks). My son is a Tiger this year (I'm not sure if he'll officially be a Wolf over the summer), and my daughter will be 5 years old. So I think we're going to sign up if a spot is available when we're eligible. This seems to be a well kept secret in our council, and I wonder if anyone has ever taken part in this kind of family camp, especially if you're not connected with a troop that's at camp that week.

>>>>>Boy would that cause a lot of controversy.

I also wouldn't worry about the time required to finish Eagle. Whether he has five years or six, he can still do it at a very leisurely pace. Many Eagles (myself included) earn their Eagle when they are 17 years old. But this is not because it takes that long--it's because there's a natural tendency to use all of the available time. I was about 17 1/2 when I finished Eagle. If the cutoff had been 19 years old instead of 18, I have no doubt that I would have earned it when I was 18 1/2. If anything, starting later might keep him (and you) a little bit more focused on getting the requirements finished. But I don't think it really matters much one way or another.