Chief Decorah

You might want to add the Bay-Lakes Council's "Wolf River Adventures" program to your roster. Four different week-long treks are available, including river kayaking on the Wolf & Peshtigo Rivers, two of the best whitewater rivers in the midwest, sea kayaking, sailing and bike touring in Wisconsin's mini-version of Cape Cod - Door County, canoe trips on the wild Flambeau River in north central Wisconsin or a trek that includes many of the above activities on a smaller scale. The council, located in Appleton, WI, has two summer camp facilities - Bear Paw and Gardner Dam - that offer these high adventure opportunities for Boy Scouts and Venturers from in-council, as well as all over the midwest. Here's a link to the brochure: http://www.baylakesbsa.org/council/files/UpcomingEventsPDFs/WolfRiverAdventures2010_webv2.pdf

Given the time of your arrival, I think you handled it well, at least for that night. Had my unit been set up in your campsite by accident, I would have been extremely apologetic and suggested swapping campsites in the morning. Since that Scoutmaster didn't make that offer, I think you handled the situation extremely well with your Troop. Revenge is often on the minds of youth (if not the adults) but talking about the situation with the boys probably taught them one of life's lessons and hopefully the lesson sticks with them for a long time. Thankfully, the weather was good and the pavillion wasn't as necessary as it would have been on a rainy weekend. Congrats on handling things appropriately, at least in my opinion.

Hol-ry Brent! Glad to hear that you had a great trip. A canoe trip in the Boundary Waters or Quetico is true high adventure, at least as I see it. Nothing there but woods, water and the weather. It's up to you and your crew to make the trip the best it can be. Sounds like you all did just that. Congratulations! As much as people on this site squawk about the need for jungle boots, it's interesting that your female interpreter wore sneakers and out-portaged everyone. So much for the stories of NT-mandating "wear jungle boots or you die". For the record, we had two crews at Sommers in June and those that wore jungle boots had about a 50/50 experience with them. Some boots made it fine and some fell apart. All were new prior to the trip. Unbelievable that, in this day and age, companies continue to make crap.

Buffalo Skipper, To answer your question about groups switching tent partners "on a whim", I don't see that as a problem. I would keep a watchful eye to make sure there isn't someone getting slighted by the constant switching, but all-in-all, I believe it builds patrol or crew comaradarie and you have a stronger group. If they'd rather pick tent partners and stick with them for the trip, that's obviously fine, too.(This message has been edited by Chief Decorah)

Thank you for posting that, dzierzak. After reading JBlake's post earlier in this thread about going to Philmont and "being forced" to carry tents but having the boys sleep under the stars anyway, it makes me wonder why he felt their crew could sidestep the rules that apply to 20,000 other Scouts and adults every summer.

Anniepoo, Please elaborate... are you saying that if a 9 or 10 year old Webelo needs to get up in the middle of the night to water the bushes behind his tent, he needs to wake up his parent or another Scout to go with him? As for the tenting alone (or not), there should always be a goal of having Scouts tenting together, simply for the comaradarie aspect. If several boys are tenting by themselves, I think the "group" suffers in the fact that you want the Troop or Patrol thinking in terms of "unit first". Having a group of loners does nothing to build that unit cohesiveness. However, there are always exceptions for Scouts tenting alone. Most exceptions have been brought up in this thread - having an odd number of boys, Senior Patrol Leader priveleges (I see no problem with this but I bet it's rare) and others. As adults, I think we need to keep a watchful eye to ensure unit cohesiveness and squash cliques in our units. Waking a buddy in the middle of the night just to go to the latrine isn't a good method, in my humble opinion.

This is way over-simplifying the answer, but just get your Troop "doing" something. Anything. Get them on the trail for a short weekend with less than perfect backpacks, sleeping bags that are too bulky and other gear that isn't perfect for backpacking. Just do it. As time goes on, educate them on what's important for successful backpacking trips (i.e. lightweight and more compact gear, good hiking boots, backpacks that fit, etc.) and show them the way. Over time, you'll find gear that is reasonably priced and better quality than what everyone has currently and slowly upgrade. Rome wasn't built in a day. Neither has any well-equipped Boy Scout Troop or Venturing Crew that does high adventure treks. I can still remember our first REAL high adventure trek - backpacking on Isle Royale National Park in Lake Superior. We were packed heavy, too much food (imagine that), backpacks didn't fit right (although that got corrected along the way) and just a group of Scouts and leaders struggling to learn. We got better as time went along and, to this day, it's still a fond memory for our group. It actually got us started toward a very successful trip to Philmont, complete with good hiking boots, lighter sleeping bags, lighter gear in general and, most importantly, the mental make-up to complete a tough, 10-day backpacking trip in the mountains. I think most will agree the last point is the most important of all. Good luck with your Troop. If you continue doing high adventure treks, your Troop will stay strong for years, and think of how much fun you'll have!

Thanks for the info. I've been looking for a news article on this but cannot find one. Can you share more info regarding the accident?

If you're looking for an option, try Blue Sky Adventures. I can't vouch for them personally since I've not yet had the opportunity to use them. However, many crews and council contingents have and they've had great experiences with them. http://www.blueskyadventures.net/BSA/Home_Page.html

I side with those who say "A Scout is Courteous". It's also hard to fly with Eagles in the morning when you run with the dogs at night. While sitting around the campfire until 3am might not be classified as "running with the dogs", it's still leaving a very short window of sleeping time for the adults. Adults staying up an extra hour or so beyond the boys' bedtime can be an enjoyable, relaxing time of the day. However, yukking it up around the campfire until 3am or so not only lacks courtesy for others, it isn't taking into account the activities coming up the next day and the need for a good night's sleep.

Each crew brings a shovel (or trowel) for Leave No Trace bathroom techniques when you're on the trail and don't have the luxury (insert big-toothed grin here) of a red roof inn or a latrine box in the woods. As for the type of shovel you need, simply go to an outdoors sporting good store and pick up a plastic spade. They're usually orange and cost less than $5.00. Plus, they're lightweight. http://www.rei.com/product/407146 You will likely get multiple responses on the cooking gear, but we used the Philmont-issued cook set and it worked out fine. Can you go lighter? Of course. Do you need to? That's your call, but the stuff is fine for hundreds of crews each summer. It it's good enough for them, it's good enough for us. If you haven't done it yet, check out www.Philsearch.org . I have no vested interest in the site, but it's worth it's weight in gold for trek preparation.

Here would be a place to start your search: http://www.w9fz.com/canoebase/

The Bay-Lakes Council in eastern Wisconsin has a fantastic summer camp high adventure program for Venturers and Venturing-age youth called Wolf River Adventures. It's run separately from the summer camp program and involves four options: 1) Sea Kayaking and bike touring in Door County, 2) a wilderness canoe trip on the Flambeau River, 3) experience-appropriate river kayaking on the famous Wolf, Peshtigo and Red rivers and a 4th adventure that includes an overnight mountain biking trip, rock climbing and rappelling, COPE, black powder shooting and more. Here's the flyer. http://www.baylakesbsa.org/council/files/UpcomingEventsPDFs/2009VenturingProgramsInsert.pdf

Hi Mike, Congratulations on deciding to take your Troop on a wilderness canoe trip. That, by itself, is a credit to you and your leadership. Scouting needs more leaders like you. I wouldn't have responded unless you had opened it up to comments on Northern Tier. If you've researched this site, you will have found a couple lengthy, very positive posts by me about NT. I stand by those comments now for all the reasons I mentioned. If you haven't found them yet, simply scroll down the high adventure page until you see a thread about NT. I'll say it this way - you don't have to go to Philmont to get your Scouts a backpacking experience, and you don't have to outfit through Northern Tier to get a canoeing experience. However, by doing so, you're doing things the Scouting way with an outfitter run by the BSA. And yes, you and your Scouts earn the trek completion patches that you don't get going on your own or through a private outfitter. NT is a good program run by good people and I strongly recommend them. NOTE: I'm a volunteer Scouter like most of you are and I have no vested interest in the base itself. However, I've lead crews through NT and sent crews to NT as part of our council contingents.

I agree with the others. If you want an all-girl crew, make it an all-girl crew. No problem. Also, remember that it's a "Venturing" Crew, not a "Venture" crew. The more we all use the proper terminology, the more likely Venturing will continue to grow. From the Language of Scouting: http://www.scouting.org/Media/LOS/All/V.aspx

Glad to help, Mike. Northern Tier does a nice job and it's run the Scouting way. I think you'll be happy with them if that's the way you go. One other thing... you don't really have a year before you have to decide on where and when you want to go in 2010. NT starts accepting reservations for 2010 treks around April 1, 2009. It's a phone-in system that will get you a busy signal for a while (unless you're really lucky), but usually after an hour or so of trying, you'll get a staff member at the base to take your reservation. Getting your reservation made on the first day gives you the best selection of dates, but you could certainly call after April 1st and have a very large number of dates. The farther away you get from April 1st, the less options you'll have. I suggest picking dates for your trek within the next few months so you can make the call to NT right away in April. Again, good luck with your planning.

Regarding the Interpreter... I'll say this about the NT Interpreters, they can become an integral part of your crew. They carry their share, cook their share, and do their share of the crew duties. They're also part of a 3-person canoe so they paddle and portage their share, too. Typically, Interpreters are former Scouts between the ages of 18 and 30 who love to paddle and have done canoe trips in the past. I don't believe this is always the case, but Interpreters are chosen, in part, because of their experience. Many are Eagle Scouts who have, obviously, had leadership positions in their respective Troops and know how to lead and do things the Scouting way. From time to time, I hear stories about how certain crews can have a bad experience at Northern Tier "because of their Interpreter". This may be true, but it may also have something to do with the crew members themselves. Usually, the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I'm a firm believer that if all parties live by the Scout Oath and Law, being especially aware of "A Scout is "Friendly", "Courteous", "Kind" and "Cheerful", crews can have a wonderful time with their Interpreter. He or she can be a valuable resource to each crew because they've been trained in Wilderness First Aid and are adept at navigating in canoe country. They may also be able to add to the crew's experience by sharing some Boundary Waters or Quetico history, being particularly skilled at fishing, knowing how to cook a great dessert that will top off a great evening meal, by being a great story teller around the campfire or being able to identify the constellations on a clear night. You never know what you'll learn from an Interpreter. I'd be willing to bet that there are plenty of Interpreters who get Christmas cards or at least thank you notes from their crews. The bottomline is this - don't underestimate the advantages of having an Interpreter on your crew. Based on multiple experiences and feedback from our council contingent crews, they are great additions to the crew. A few other points about Northern Tier: They're very well organized at the base. Check-in goes smoothly, good off-the-road "Yurts" to sleep in, showers, sauna, and bunkhouses for off-the-water crews, good meals in the dining hall and a great trading post. Gear at NT is good quality (some might say 'sturdy') so perhaps it's slightly heavier than what might be available at the private outfitters, but I have found that the private outfitters aren't afraid to charge for lightweight equipment. As I like to say, "it's kind of a horse apiece" as one balances the cost vs. weight thing. I can assure you this much, however. The gear you get at NT will work very well for you and you'll have a successful trip using it. Remember this about the NT gear, though. Go through it all with your Interpreter before you hit the water and make sure you have everything. Checking the tent zippers, rain fly, etc. is standard operating procedure, but always check your cook kit and utensils so you have everything and are set. "Be Prepared". I can't overstate the fact that you also earn the Northern Tier trek completion patch and can also buy other patches and memorabilia so you can remember your Northern Tier trek. Completing a trek at Philmont or Sea Base are no different than completing a trek at NT. You earn a patch that can't be purchased anywhere but by completing a trek at that respective national high adventure base. That patch is something you can be proud of forever. I warned you upfront that I was going to get on my soap box a little, so again, I apologize for being a little long "winded". I've "been there, done that" with all the same thoughts you and your Troop are having and chose NT as our high adventure canoe trip outfitter. I've never second guessed my decision and have always been proud of the fact our Troop completed a trek through NT and our council contingents go there successfully every year. If you end up going to Northern Tier, it's my guess that you'll enjoy their program as well. Good luck!(This message has been edited by Chief Decorah)

For Mike R. (and perhaps others): I'm going to share some very positive thoughts on going through Northern Tier so you can hear another opinion. This may be a little bit of a "soap box" speech (so I apologize in advance), but I feel very strongly about the NT program and what they offer to Scouting, particularly for a younger and inexperienced group of paddlers. I will tell you upfront that my first experience with Northern Tier was about five years ago when I helped our Troop organize a canoe trip through the Sommers base at Ely, MN. We took three full crews of eight people each, most of which had never before paddled on an extended wilderness canoe trip. If they had any canoeing experience, it had only been gained with their families at the lake or at Scout camp. Currently, I am a Venturing Crew advisor, as well as our council's volunteer high adventure chairman. We have sent council contingent crews to NT every year since I became HA chairman a few years ago. When I took the position, I chose to send our crews to NT vs the private outfitters, but before I did that, I did a lot of research on pricing, what programs were offered, gear - the whole nine yards. When I added it all up, especially after considering that NT is a national high adventure base of the Boy Scouts, I felt it was the right decision to go with NT as our high adventure canoeing opportunity. After many successful trips and another contingent going next summer, I'm convinced it's the right way to go. Being an experienced Boundary Waters and Quetico paddler myself, I, too, questioned the need for "three to a canoe". The folks at NT assured me that for young paddlers, regardless of experience level, paddling (and more importantly, portaging) three to a canoe would be the most efficient and effective way of traveling that a group of Scouts could do. I can assure you... after the first or second portage, I agreed! Here's why: When tripping in canoe country, efficient canoeists single portage. That is, when they hit the portage landing, they get out of the canoe, grab all their gear, carry it across the portage, put it back in their canoe, get in and paddle on. The alternative to single-portaging is double-portaging where one carries part of the gear across the portage, walks back across the portage empty-handed, then grabs the rest of the gear and carries it through. Three trips vs. one trip. When you have a half-mile portage, you can walk a half mile or you can walk a mile and a half. Going three to a canoe allows one person to carry the canoe, one to carry the gear pack and one to carry the food pack. The pack carriers always will carry the peripheral items like paddles or fishing poles. With young Scouts, you could go two-to-a-canoe, but then you're forced to put more weight on the kids' backs at each portage, or you have to double portage. What works best for you depends on your goals for the trip. In your post, you say you're planning a 10-day trip. I would assume you're not going to go in two or three lakes, set up base camp for seven or eight days, then paddle out? You're probably going to shoot for 50 miles, at least, (you'll do that easily, btw) and see some of the beautiful lakes and forests of the BWCAW. If your plans are to travel, you must plan to single portage if at all possible. The Northern Tier plan works beautifully that way. The other advantage to having three paddlers per canoe is the duffer (i.e. the person in the middle) can be the official navigator for each canoe and can also paddle when necessary (maybe it's windy and you need some extra 'horsepower'). You can rotate who gets to be the duffer at each portage so everyone gets a chance to navigate, not to mention catch a little rest from paddling. You can't underestimate how important that is to younger Scouts or those who aren't quite as physically strong as others. You need to realize that you're not always paddling on glass or with a nice breeze at your back. Boys will get tired and two 14 year olds paddling a canoe loaded with gear straight into a headwind can be very tiring, not to mention, potentially dangerous if waves pick up. Three to a canoe works for Scouts! Regarding the Interpreter...

Ok Stosh... you made me do it. You did your homework by posting the rules and regs. I called the Ranger station today. Here's the answer and rule interpretation I got: A canoe with a makeshift sail is not considered a sailboat, nor is it (obviously) considered a sailboard. Rigging a sail with a poncho between two paddles or by some other jerry-rigged fashion does not constitute a mechanical device and is legal in the Boundary Waters. The lady said that store-bought "canoe sails" are not considered legal and the people in the canoe could (and she repeated 'could') be fined. They more than likely would receive a warning first and be told not to use it anymore. I can only predict that Quetico would give the same answer. Sailing in the fashion stated above has been done for years and years in both the BW and Q and I knew I was right about what constituted a mechanical device and what didn't. You just made me look a little deeper for the rule and it's interpretation. Thanks for that.

Sounds good, Dale. I look forward to hearing about some of the routes.

What I meant by my question was does anyone have a copy of the specific canoe routes that participants at Northern Wisconsin/Region 7 used to take? If not something in print, maybe some direction as to the lakes and rivers that were frequented by the crews. I've paddled the Flambeau. There aren't too many rivers better.

Does anyone have a list of routes they used to take out of the Region 7/Northern Wisconsin National Canoe base? Obviously, the lakes and rivers are still there. Since we're not that far away and could easily travel north to paddle some of the routes, we'd like to do it. Anyone have an old route manual?

Congratulations to your daughter on being excited about Venturing. I have a couple girls in my Crew who are sisters of Boy Scouts (and former Girl Scouts) who are excited about what Venturing and our Crew has to offer. Others have given good advice. Contact your local council office to find an active Crew nearest you. You can also go directly to the BSA website for Venturing: http://www.scouting.org/Venturing.aspx Another thing to remember - the term "Venture Crew" is incorrect. It's "Venturing Crew". And as ScoutNut said, it's not "Venture Scout", it's "Venturer". Not trying to nitpick, but the more everyone uses the proper terminology, the stronger the program will be. Good luck! It's going to be a fun ride for both of you!

Hey JBlake, Regarding your comment, "By the way, if one get's caught setting sail in the BWCA waters, they will have a fine and their permit revoked. No mechancial means to propel watercraft, paddle only. A sail, even if jury-rigged is mechanical." Nothing could be further from the truth. Sailing down a lake with the means mentioned in this thread is perfectly legal and it's practiced by many canoeists in the BW and Quetico. I encourage you to reference the specific rule if you're going to make such a statement.

Some answers: 1. Here are two websites: http://www.troop6bsa.org/?cmd=philsearch http://www.danyoder.com/philmont/ 2. There are no bad treks at Philmont. Determine what program areas your crew wants to do, then work them into the trek searchs at the websites listed above. Each crew's interests will vary. If you want to avoid some areas, compare the program activities you can do back home vs. the program areas that will be great to do at Philmont. 3. We did ours at Cimarroncito and enjoyed it. I heard others do it elsewhere and enjoyed it just as well. Rock climbing was #1 on our list of program areas to do. 4. Baldy Mountain is a destination. The Tooth is on your way back to camp (on many treks). The Tooth is 9,003' above sea level. Baldy is 12,441'. Both are incredible, as is Mt. Phillips (11,711'). 5. Can't help you on transportation from ABQ. 6. I would suggest joining the Philmont list server. Ask your questions there via email. Philmont veterans from around the country will share their insight with you. Be forwarned... you'll get lots of email. You will find other publications on the Philsearch website. Click on the "Philmont Treks" icon on the left, then click on some of the publications. Tons and tons of information for crews going to Philmont. Good luck!