acco40

Mosquitos (mosquitoes?) can be really bad in central Michigan. Lots of stagnant water, etc. And as residents of Canada & Alaska know, the cold weather does not eradicate the pesky bugs. The inside joke at camps and else where is that the mosquito is the OTHER state bird of Michigan. I know that your system reduces the number of missed items that are not brought to camp. However, it buts more burden on the leaders and less responsibility on the boys. That is a delicate trade-off. For my own son (11 yr old Star), I specifically DO NOT EVER check what he brings or not. So far my only disappointment (not his mind you) is when he only brought four pair of clean underwear for seven days of summer camp. Other than that, he always is the one to bring the personal first aid kit, role of TP, 50 ft of nylon cord, small wad of dryer lint and flint, etc. I'm lucky that he takes scouting so seriously. For my younger son, a 10 year old Webelos Cub Scout, I do go over what to bring and what not to bring in detail before departure for our Webelos summer camp (five days, four nights). This is not only because of his younger age and experience but his personality is much different than his older brother. He'd go with the clothes on his back and not much else. When he goes on his first camping trip as a boy scout, I'll probably make him go over what he is bringing and make sure the camping check list is understood. After that, he will be on his own. The experience of going without is a wonderful teacher. The school of hard knocks has many graduates and some I'm sorry to say, even go to graduate school there!

Rooster had a good summary for when to cancel or not. The problem I have is when the majority of boys are well prepared but some are not. At this years summer camp, one boy did not bring any bug spray (northern lower Michigan). His answer, I'll just use someone else's. My response, no you will not (at least mine). He didn't want to buy any at the trading post. After being eaten up for two days, he finally realized that maybe instead of the candy he was buying, some bug spray may be a wiser investment. Alas, the trading post ran out of spray to buy, it was on order, so only then did I allow him to use my spray. On a camping trip in April we got a light snow, weather in the upper 20's, etc. and one boy showed up without ANY sleeping bag!! I made a trip home and got one for him (60 mile round trip). And yes, we repeatedly go over what to bring, what not to bring, expected weather conditions, etc. Luckily, one of these experiences teaches life lessons very well.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Rooster, We are not arquing about your "rights", but more of consideration for others. For what ever reasons, Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush (Herbert Walker) and Clinton did not publicly invoke Jesus' name when reciting prayer, benedictions, etc. Bush (Dubya) did (does). Some have complained. Is he violating anyones rights? No. Does he have a responsibility to try to be inclusive (sometimes he represents the position or office of the President and not himself) and not use denominational references? Some, including myself, believe he does. When you wear the Scout uniform, remember that sometimes your represent Scouting, not Mr. Rooster, and Scouting does not recognize Christianity, Hinduism or any other religion as the one true way. Your comment that prayer is not evangelizing (is that a word?, maybe prayer is not evangelical in nature) and that folks who are offended by someone else's prayer simply because that person mentioned God by name, have a very weak faith indeed is a rather crass comment. I've heard many Christians say they are offended by rap & rock lyrics. Is that because their faith is weak? . By the way, when you feel prompted to say "In your Son's name, the Lord Jesus Christ" how do you know the Holy Spirit did the prompting? Were you prompted by the Holy ghost 20 years ago? And why do you feel the need to SAY anything verbally? God has very good listening powers. You do not need to petition the Lord with VERBAL prayer.

"As for my personal faith and practice, I believe when I say a generic prayer I am offending God." Do you believe the Philmont Grace isoffensive to God?

Green and purple? Did I say green and purple? I'm so sorry, our new T-Shirts are emerald (or jade, lime, olive, etc.) and indigo (or violet). We never would have chosen your rival's green and purple!

Tolerance is an often debated subject. Rooster & Culver, maybe I should not have used the term "abhor", I was just trying to make a point. I did not mean that I found a religion or religious practice abhorant (reread my post please). What I do not like is people that are not sensitive to others. Would be in good taste to try and celebrate mass at chapel at scout camp and offer all the boys a host (wafer)? Obviously not. Does that mean that I find that religious practice or religion (Catholicism) abhorant? Of course not. Removing one's hat before grace or inside a house of worship is good etiquette to SOME. It is forbidden by SOME too due to their religious teachings. Emily Post (and Miss Manners) would also tell you that while removing one's hat may be in good taste it is definately in bad taste to point out to someone that they did not remove their hat. And thus this forum topic strays some more ...(This message has been edited by acco40)

You mentioned "switching the cord." Not only would he switch from the Blue & Gold of a Cub Scout den chief and go to a Red, Yellow, Green of a Webelos den chief he can wear a Red ,White & Blue(?) cord (not more than one at a time I believe) if he served as a den chief for one full year.

My wife and I have coordinated the popcorn sales for our Cub Scout pack for three years now and for my older son's Troop last year. My wife is the District Popcorn Chair. For our pack we lay out a few ground rules. I tally up pack expenses (which are paid out of by pack funds) for the previous year and divide by the numbr of boys currently in the pack. This gives a rough estimate of what it costs to run the program per boy. It usually comes out to around $40 to $60 per boy. We give parents the option of selling popcorn or donating money to the pack. Many of the parents have complained that they don't like selling door to door. My sons do (with Mom & Dad) but I don't go to the door with them. We also do store sales (and some stores have recently denied permission because of the BSA policy on gay leaders but that is another story). I have NO extended family within 600 miles and sell maybe $15 worth at work so my boys work hard at it and do quite well. I keep my mouth shut but about 10 - 12 boys and their families usually fund the majority of the pack (45 - 55 boys). For my older son's troop, I suggested that all store sale profits go to the troop but that all door to door sales go to the individual boy's scout account. If a family doesn't want to participate in door to door sales (has more $$ than time) no problem. As for what mix to sell, the beauty of Trails End is that you do not have to purchase product. Make sure you get enough. The problem I have is where to put it all! Essentially, I have no garage from October to November each year! What we do not sell can be turned back in to our Council. Doesn't all Councils work this way? We receive approx. 37% and if we meet certain requirements (attend all meetings, get monies and orders in on time, etc.) we receive an additional 1%. I believe it is a great learning experience for the boys and the public finds it very hard to say no to those Tiger Cubs! The boy scouts have to work a little harder.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Bob White, you are absolutely correct about the Scoutmaster's involvement in recruiting ASMs. I guess that I'm just a little sensitive because many times I see the SMs using the Committee as a "rubber stamp" so often I think many forget the real purposes of the Committee. The Scoutmaster is the program representative to the Committee (but not a member) and does share the responsibility of recruiting with the Committee for adult leaders. I like to tell the new parents that I see the SM as a CEO, the ASMs as VPs, the Committee as a Board of Directors and the parents as the Stockholders. What are the boys many ask, the product of course! I know that that sounds simplistic but it gives a flavor to the new parents about the leaders roles. Getting back to the original question at hand, I think that it is important to have a boy, regardless of troop size, as the main youth interface with the SM & ASM(s). I would call this youth the SPL regardless of troop size but if the troop wants to call him a Patrol Leader because the troop only has one patrol, I have no problem with that as long as the youth know that he is the prime interface with the adult uniformed leaders. Kind of like the US Navy, the leader of the ship is called Captain regardless if he is an Ensign, Lieutenant, Lt. Commander, Commander or a real honest to goodness Captain.

I abhor using denominational specific prayer in nondenominational group settings, something our President obviously disagrees with. I feel no need to wear my religious beliefs on my sleeve. Actually, my real preference would not be to have someone lead the troop, patrol, camp, staff, or whatever in grace/prayer but to set a side a brief time to allow each person to pray/reflect on their own. I see no need to vocalize my prayer. God has very good ears.

Hey Rooster, I think we are in agreement here. I said I would not use the BSA as a forum to advance MY views. I happen to believe eating meat is an okay idea. However, I don't take advantage of my position in the BSA to promote that view and respect others who do not. You are on thin ice when you try to mix "character" and "values." It takes character to stick up for ones values, regardless of the value in question. I have a belief in Jesus but I abhor when Scouters invoke Jesus' name during grace because I believe it shows an ignorance to others at best and arrogance and disrespect to others at worst. Nondenominational "stuff" works just as well and reinforces the BSA policy (a scout is reverent). Just like admonishing someone to remove their hat for grace, it is in poor taste. Stick to your own beliefs and try to be considerate (should I use the terms COURTEOUS & KIND?). The statement "No Scoutmaster should undertake to teach Scouts, in any formalized manner, about sexual behavior." says to me to not "moralize" sexual behavior to the boys one way or the other if possible. I would probably direct them to their parent(s) or doctor or may even show them what it says in the Scoutmaster Handbook. But, I would not try to pass on my values on the subject to the boy assuming health and safety were not an immediate issue.(This message has been edited by acco40)

I'm not aware of any specific distance from the top crease. However, you don't want to start too high so the badges are on the shoulder or so low that the badges start below the front right pocket. A good start would be so that the first badge on far right side of the sash goes just above the Boy Scouts of America strip above the right pocket. See: http://mninter.net/~blkeagle/sash.htm

First, keep referring to the new recruits as "Weblous." As a Webelos den leader, I would steer my boys away from a troop that did not recognize our rank. I would look at a troop that was trying to recruit Webelos Scouts! Please, the above was meant to be satire first and educational second.

If the singular patrol troop wants to call the effective SPL a PL or SPL it does not matter much in function. However, I would prefer to call one boy (boy elected) an SPL and also have him serve as PL if he has at least one year of service and obtained 1st Class rank (not required, just my preference). I definately would want an SPL in the troop. Also, be careful about "recruiting" an ASM. Ideally, ASMs are not recruited by the SM; the troop committee (which does not include SM or ASMs) should draw up a potential list of ASMs and then ask (recruit) the individuals to see if they would like position. It is not the SM's task to fulfill ASM positions.(This message has been edited by acco40)

From The Scoutmaster Handbook: Scoutmasters must keep in mind that boys should learn about sex from their parents, guardians, or others empowered by their families to guide them. No Scoutmaster should undertake to teach Scouts, in any formalized manner, about sexual behavior. If a Scout comes to you with questions of a sexual nature, answer them as honestly as you can and, whenever it is appropriate, encourage him to share his concerns with his parents or guardian, spriitual leader, or a medical expert. My interpretation of the above is that if a boy came to me and asked such questions as is premarital sex wrong I would not give him a yes or no answer but tell him that that is a question he should investigate with parents, doctors, spiritual leaders, etc. If he persisted in asking what my specific feelings were I would "vanillize" my response the best I could. I don't view the BSA as a forum to advance my personal beliefs.

Rooster & little Billie, if the boy in question asks you questions about his sexuality as the example so states the BSA policy is THAT YOU ARE NOT QUALIFIED TO COUNCIL HIM! They suggest that you recommend and or refer the boy to professionals (regardless if you agree with their advice or not.)

Regardless of what silent people say? That is the problem or blessing of silent people. I don't know what they say.

Unlike this forum, I have invested my time, money, (both directly through dues, FOS, donations and indirectly through United Way, tax dollars, etc.) efforts, sons, etc. to the excellent program that Scouting provides and choose to make it even better when I see faults rather than just walk away. A parallel that I see is when both my parents joined the service during WWII. They did not believe in the segragation of the races that was done by the USN but they chose to defend their country and work within the system for change rather than walk away. And yes, they also volunteered, just like I have done with Scouting.

I don't like the 25 cent fine idea. We had our February campout in Chicago (boys idea, not mine) and when going up in the Sears tower one of the boys refused to wear his field uniform correctly. Most of the adults (leaders and parents) were yelling at him to wear it right. The more they squawked, the more he resisted. I took him aside, in private and tried to explain that his uniform represented BSA and the Scouts to many people, that he was not just wearing it for himself. He kept repeating that it was HIS shirt and he could wear it the way he wanted. After a while, I think he got the message and since I have always complimented him when ever he wears his field uniform properly (shirt, pants, socks, and on rare occasions his neckerchief). Now if I can only get the SM to wear his field uniform instead of his 2001 National Jamboree T-Shirt ....

Thanks for your responses. Your answers are what I expected (wear non-official badges as temporary insignia on the right breast pocket). It is just that the patch is just so small (the same size as the merit badges) that the temporary badge holders that I have (rectangular, round, square) are so much bigger! Just kidding of course. Thanks again.

Not asked (why I feel debate should not be limited) but I will tell you why, I don't agree with it but would like to work within the system to change it. However, it is a low priority with me now. Sexual matters should not be initiated by the adult leaders with the youth (official BSA policy). The legal issue is really if the BSA is a private or public institution. Currently, the legal system supports the view that it is a private organization and thus can dictate membership qualifications that can be in conflict with certain laws that govern public institutions. {If private, why did Congress use my tax dollars, and it was in the millions, to help fund the National Jamboree?} I feel that overall, the scouting program is excellent for our youth and adult volunteers. I also believe that the BSA is trying to sit on the fence and not offend the Church of LDS (whose official youth program is scouting) and other powerful lobbies. The BSA supports the idea that scouts should practice their religious beliefs as their religion dictates but in general, does not make value judgements on those beliefs. It does not kick out those who eat pork, eat beef, work on the Sabbath, have an abortion, etc. Why does it make a value judgement on homosexuality? My guess is that it is a money issue. Fear of lawsuits, fear of losing donations, etc. If two deep leadership and all of the other youth protection guidelines are practiced as they should be and adult leaders keep their sexual matters private, within reason, (both heterosexual and homosexual) no problems should occur. My troop knows that I am married and although I don't flaunt it, I make no attempt to hide it. The same should be true for all leaders. I am very actively involved with the Trails End popcorn fundraisers every year and have had stores who have allowed us to use their facilities in the past, stop giving their permission and the reason stated was the BSA stance on homosexuals. I've told my council this and their response was "what stores? We should boycott them!" and thus the level of acrimony intensifies. Not very scout like in my eyes. P.S. If you do not want debate on this issue, why have the poll? Of course, you are free to ignore this and any other post.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Not sure what the hulabaloo was all about between Ed & Bob but; If a scout can become first class within a year of joining Boy Scouts, it shows that he has been involved, went camping, learned basic skills, etc. I don't think that making 1\+{st} Class in the first year in and of itself is such a big deal but if done it usually shows that the scout is progressing nicely, is having fun, attending meetings, etc. If feel that if a boy becomes 1\+{st} Class within a year it is a good indicator that he will remain in scouting for a time (good retention) but not that it was \b{THE} reason for retention. Look at Cub Scouts. The boys who made regular advancement were usually the ones with parental involvement (Cubs is a family based, unlike Boy Scouts) and thus stuck to the program. I play dual roles now, Webelos Den Leader and Asst. Scoutmaster (actually three as a Unit Commissioner but that is another story) and have learned a lot from my Star scout son about the 1st class requirements. Never to old to learn I say!(This message has been edited by acco40)

Our council (Clinton Valley) allows adult scouters to earn a "Merit Badge" at the council owned summer camp. Most of the requirements are based on the fact that the scouter should be actively involved, visiting all stations, help out, do a service project, sign up for next year, attend chapel services, etc. When earned, the adult scouter (Scoutmaster or Asst. Scoutmaster) has the opportunity to donate $3.00 to help fund a camp scholarship program to receive his merit badge. I realize that this is one of those "council only" type awards, not official BSA, but my question is where, how or if I should wear the merit badge. I've seen some adults wear it as sort of a patrol patch on their right shoulder (beneath the flag). By the way, the merit badge depicts a rocking chair. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks in advance.

What I did for my boys (actually my wife came up with the idea) was make a bookmark out of construction paper and I had preprinted on paper the Boy Scout Law, Oath, Outdoor Code, Motto, BSA Symbol, etc. and had the boys cut them out (I made sure they were the appropriate size) and paste them onto the construction paper bookmark and then had them "laminate" the bookmarks with clear contact paper. This served two functions, I told them that when I sign-off their requirements, be sure to put the bookmark in the appropriate spot and they got to see the Law, Oath, etc. again and again. The same can be done for Cubs. Another early assignment I give them is to make book covers so that I can tell whose book is whose!(This message has been edited by acco40)

Great, after I submit my reply, the results show up! A reload/refresh didn't do the trick. I'm guessing the percentage of trained forum users is higher than the general population of BSA leaders.