acco40

The only problem I've seen is not the little sisters but the big sisters! We had a few families show up, invited, the evening before the last day of summer camp to see their first year son (11 yr olds). One of the boys had an older (15 - 16?) sister and boy did it disrupt our senior patrol. She and the boys were very well behaved but the boys followed her around like lost puppies! I was humerous to see and I guess a wake up call to me, a parent of a soon to be 12 yr old scout, 10 yr Webelos scout and 7 yr old girl scout. Usually, within our 12 campouts per year we designate two or three that we empahsize family. As for siblings who may be potential new members, the only problem when my younger outgoing, gregarious and fun loving (scene stealing ham?) Webelos scout attends a boy scout function (something I do not encourage but allow on a limited basis) is with his older quiet and reserved brother. The younger one is a great big hit with all of the other adults and boys, much to the chagrin of his older brother. I like to remind the younger one that his turn will come soon, but he will have to wait just like his older brother.

The "God is a concept" reference reminded me of a lyric by John Winston Lennon, "God is a concept, by which we measure our pain." I don't really want to get into the "God is in control of everything." or as I believe John Calvin phrased it, predestination, vs. human free will debate. I came into being because of actions by my mother and father more years ago than I care to remember.

Our troop allows personal electronics (gameboys, CD players, etc.) but only in their tent or in the car. I like the idea that if you are going to ban electronics from the boys, no adults should have their palm pilots, pagers, cell phones, lap tops, etc. As with guns, the electronics are not inherently bad (okay, maybe Gameboys are) but the boys (and many adults) need to learn when it is appropriate to use them. We took a train ride to Chicago (from Detroit) in February and many of the boys took CD players on the long train ride. When a leader wanted to talk to the boys (we had our own car and conducted some training along the way) they would shut-off the CD players but still have their head phones on. I tried to explain to my son that if a youth (or adult) keeps their head phones physically on their ears, even with the sound off, when someone is talking to them it gives the appearance of inattention and should be avoided. Not sure if he agreed but promised me he would remove his head phones when addressed by an adult. Obviously, when at a troop meeting or an outing outside of his tent, he never brings his electronic toys.(This message has been edited by acco40)

My heart goes out to the Amundsen family. One thing I've noticed is that the boys feel safe inside their tents as opposed to out in the open. Even though a tent really provides no structural safety, the appearance of four walls around them conveys security. They may provide shelter from the rain but little else. I know hindsight is always 20/20, but when high winds appoach, head for low ground, not your tent! A similar incident happened when my older son crossed over from Wolf to Bear at our Pack's crossover. About half the pack decided to spend the night at a local county park. I knew thunderstorms were in the forcast but was not overly concerned. About five in the morning, the rain and high winds kicked in. I got my family out of the tent and into the mini-van. Later a Park Ranger came by and forced everyone to either leave the park or go to the park shelter. The storm was violent and quick. It was all over in about 30 minutes but trees and power lines were knocked down, tree limbs fell in great abundance. There were unconfirmed tornado sightings. Luckily, nobody was hurt from our group. Later that day, it was sunny and calm and crossover proceeded as usual. We were lucky.

This debate reminds me of the JFK election. Some have a difficult time separating not only church and state but God and church (or The Church). JFK, the USA's first Roman Catholic president, was askd if he would answer first to the Pope in Rome (Vatican) or to the country. Of course to get elected, JFK said his first priority would be the country.

Please see: http://www.inquiry.net/uniforms/hats/inside.htm

Rooster, speaking of Corinthians, head coverings and hair - Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? {1 Corinthians 11 - 14} I guess Jesus didn't have ready access to a barber but I digress.

Rooster7 & Scoutmaster424, tall pointed hats the exception of course. :-) Oh, and crowns. But are they considered "hats?" I seem to remember certain royal family members wearing their "hats" in church. Seriously, I think I knew at one point but it escapes me now. Why is it considered good manners to remove (especially for males) their hat indoors, for church, etc.? I'm not sure how the custom started.

I saw a game (Tampa Bay vs. the sad sack Lions) in the Pontiac Silver Dome where the military and Webelos Cub Scouts were the honor guard. All wore hats/helmets (official uniform hats); both the Marines, Navy, Army, Air Force & Webelos Scouts. I would have the boys wear their hats. In my troop, a selected few (five boys) were specially asked to perform as an honor guard for a quasi-scout event, an dinner for the largest contributors to the council. The event was held indoors (fancy restaurant). We were going to have the boys wear their hats but only four of the five boys had a hat. We special order our unique troop campaign hats. What I felt was most important was that all of the boys uniform look uniform (all in hats or all not in hats) so we opted for no hats but not for the "indoor rule." Our hats also have a chin strap so sometimes we can "wear" our hats, they would rest on our upper back, chip strap around our necks, but not have them on our heads while indoors. Remember the days when it was considered proper to COVER your head while in church, especially for women?

Overall, I like the shirt, socks, pants, shorts, etc. My only complaint is that the shirt collars tend to "pill up" after only a few washings. I don't know if this is because of the cotton or polyester but the shirts should last more than a few washings before the collars start self destructing. And no, I don't wash them with a rock down by the river.

scoutmaster424, Just to play devil's advocate; Your troop is invited to be the color guard (National Anthem) for the NFL Superbowl game (Rams vs. Bengals, hard to believe eh?) to be played in the E. D. Jones Dome in St. Louis. Your troop is asked to wear their complete field uniform (hat, shirt, socks, belt, pants, neckerchief, etc.). Of course they will be on television to a national audience. The organizers stress that they really want the boys to look good in their full uniforms. Q1) Do you consider the event indoors? Q2) If so, do you remove your hats?(This message has been edited by acco40)

Bob White, I agree. That is why when we have a scout who is not attending meetings, and does not give advanced warning, we schedule a meeting with the Scoutmaster. The meeting is not to place blame. It is to find out why the scout has not been attending the meetings or events and not bothering to notify his patrol leader. It may be to indifference, illness, outside activities, boredom, lack of transportation, personality conflicts, etc. The feedback that is given helps to influence the meetings. The best feedback of all is to attend, be involved and provide input in person! What I don't comprehend is why some have such differences of opinion on attendance for team sports, school etc. than for scouting. I'm involved in Cub Scouts and get very frustrated with parents/boys who have whimsical attendance. I need to plan activities, buy supplies, and make reservations for most meetings and need to get a head count. Are we not teaching responsibility to the boys when we ask them to let us know if they are attending a meeting or event? I'm not saying we should reprimand individuals for nonattendance, I'm just saying that it is common courtesy to let one know if you will be coming or not. How do you handle camping trips? Do you let scouts decide to attend at the last minute, with 24 hour notice? What about transportation needs, tour permits, food budgets, tent assignments, permission slips, etc.?(This message has been edited by acco40)

Those who say that the BSA does not allow Scouters to add requirements for rank advancement are correct. However, a troop can have an attendance requirement to be a member of that troop. Regardless if you think that is a good policy or not, the troop may have a membership requirement that includes attendance stipulations. My personal opinion is that a troop should have requirements for unexcused absenses. A scout, youth or adult, should let the troop (SM for adults, PL for youth) know if they can't attend a troop meeting or function. Non-attendance is detrimental to the troop regardless if it is the Scoutmaster, SPL, PL, troop scribe, tenderfoot or committee person.

Easy solution: The next time that her son acts up, YOU follow her rules and send him home. She would then have to leave too (I presume) killing two birds with one stone. At the next meeting the message may or may not sink in that sending the boys home at the drop of a hat is not a very good policy. What I have found most helpful at the Cub level, is to give the stage to a disruptive boy! While they like to interrupt, make snide comments, etc. while someone else is trying to get the attention of the den, when put on stage themselves (example, Billy would you please explain to the den what we are going do next?) they tend to clam up. Do this in a respectful nonpunishing manner and it tends to work very well. You mention that you have a "parent assistant"; are you referring to an assistant den leader? If not, suggest that the parent become a registered scouter, as an assistant den leader, take the training, and assist! Good luck. You will find that the majority of your problems as a Scouter will be with adults and not the youth from Tioers to Eagles.

Maybe the "flawed" Indian could have turned the pole around every onther trip and gotten twice as many flowers! And yes, I've run into my share of "talking cracked pots" in my endeavors at work and in Scouting. Good story bubbaBear, ignore my sarcasm.

I agree with Fscouter, the SA (ASM) should not initiate a SM conference but should be able to give one given the SM's permission. I also agree with ASM1, Asst. Scoutmasters are Scoutmasters. My only question to ASM1 is why wait for two years for training? And yes, the fact that BSA does not differentiate the training for SM and SA tells it all.

Quixote, service hours up through Life can aid the BSA and therefore I would "count" it unless it was also used for something else. However, I discourage using this type of service hours for rank advancement. What I try to do, many times unsuccessfully, is instill the idea that service to others is done because it is the right thing to do, not because it helps to advance rank, fulfill religious requirements, looks good, etc. These are nice fringe benefits but not really what service is all about. Many in the troop feel like they just have to "put in the time" at the Can Food Drive, Camp Clean-Up, etc. to get their box checked. My Cub Scout den does as much service work at the troop I belong to, in terms of time, and they are "required" to do very little.

Quixote, I see "double bar Bill" appeared in your post! It must be a good sign. My post was somewhat tongue in cheek. I stated that I "lean" more toward option #4. I consider myself a Christian (belief in Christ) but like many I have my times of doubt. My "man created God in his image" type statement was meant to convey that some view God as an ideal, some view country as an ideal. Ideals usually trump reality so depending on ones view of God and country as ideals or practical would determine which comes "first." For example, sctmom views country as something tangible (the present Government) and not as an ideal so her(?) duty to God naturally comes first. As for Ed, if my country demanded that I had to have sex with another woman other than my wife, well, sometimes one just has to make sacrifices for one's country. (Before I get to many flames, I'm joking everyone.)

Ed, I'm a little confused by your post. By definition, shouldn't all "service" be voluntary? If not really voluntary, it is not service in my book. Granted service is expected from all youth and adult scouts. However, to try to differentiate between quasi-mandatory service (troop service?) and individual service seems somewhat arbitrary to me. What do you do if the whole troop pitches in to help on an Eagle service project?

1) According to the Pledge of Allegiance, God (one nation under God). 2) For most devout faithful, God. 3) For those who are not quite sure, the country is tangible, God is intangible so it may be a toss up or the scales may be slightly tipped toward country. 4) For those who believe man created God (and thus God is what man wants) and the country may or may not be "popular", the vote goes to God. 5) For those who believe "God blessed America" the two are inseparable, so how about a tie. 6) For atheists, country (there is no God). 7) For those who see their country as an ideal (separate from the "government", "military", "police", "citizens", etc.) and God as the one who caused the tornado, took their sick child, etc.; the country hands-down. For myself, I lean more toward #4. The country (or should I say government) sometimes does things I do not like, Iran-Contra, Bay of Pigs, Jim Crow laws, etc. and my God is an ideal as I think, God wins hands down. Seriously, your argument reminds me of the how many angels can dance on the head of a pin argument. Now, why does the double bar script Bill keep appearing at random spots on this web page? (Patrol Leader Bill?)

Packsaddle, your post reminded me of something I saw on television in the early 70's. "Interestingly, many of us tend to look down on countries where such oaths (or other practices) are forced on the public by dictators, and then we look down on our own people who exercise their individual choice not to participate in such oaths or who oppose forced participation...if they happen not to agree with us." When President Nixon visit mainland China it was a very big event. All the major network news channels put on little snippets of video that showed us how life was like in "secretive" Red China. School children in uniform, everyone holding "the little red book", pictures of Mao everywhere, etc. It gave the impression that the chinese were all brainwashed, manipulated and tools/pawns of the communist government. However, what I found as fascinating and enlightening was a piece one network did. It showed a similar piece about life in the USA. It showed a bunch of Cub Scouts, all in their little blue & gold uniforms (no Tiger orange or Webelos khaki in those days, the same uniform was worn throughout the tenure). It showed the "masses" of US school children all reciting the Pledge of Allegiance in schools. The purpose was to point out that what we thought was horrible to suppress the "freedom" of the poor chinese children was being done in our country. As they say, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. It also showed that trough the power of the media, they could shape almost any image they wanted.

I wonder what Jesus would have done if someone (a Roman Legionaire) required him to recite a "Pledge of Allegiance" to a Roman flag to show his patriotism. My guess is that he would not be overjoyed to repeat it.

jefraz, Ed, et. all The phrase "one nation, under God" IS NOT in the Pledge of Allegiance. The Pledge of Allegiance uses the phrase "one nation under God"; there is no comma between nation and under! Please don't verbalize the pledge in that manner. As I stated much earlier in this thread, I've had four boys in our troop who were not US citizens. They were not pledging allegiance to their flag as some have stated, (which was in the original pledge which simply state I pledge allegiance to the flag and to the republic ...) but to the US flag. Should they be required to do this? They all willingly repeat the pledge but I would argue that they should not be required to do so. Scouting is an international organization and brotherhood. I know that there are BSA requirements to recite the pledge but I don't necessarily agree with them. I believe all scouts should be good citizens of their community, nation and the world. I don't believe that reciting a pledge is a necessary condition for good citizenship. As can be said for most everything, actions speak much louder than words.

Quixote, on face value, all of what you mention count in our troop. However, for example, the summer camp service project counted for our troop in our goal to receive the "spirit of the totem", a special award the boys receive at summer camp. Therefore, we have a rule that if it counts for that, it does not count for individual rank advancement; i.e. no "double dipping." Personally, I try to stay away from service projects that benefit the BSA in any way. Although not required for non-eagle service, I believe it is a good policy. That does not mean we do not do service projects for our council or district, it just means that we don't necessarily count it toward our rank service hours. Kind of like cutting your parents lawn vs. cutting your neighbors lawn.

In short, no. The leader of a Cub Scout Pack is the committee chair. Actually the hierarchy is Chartered Organization, CO Representative, Committee Chair/Committee - Cubmaster. The primary duty of the Cubmaster is to emcee the monthly pack meetings. The CM and den leaders are NOT pack committee members.