acco40

The uniforming guide says the OA sash should only be worn over the right shoulder. From the guide it states: worn over right shoulder, under epaulet of tan shirt. (OA sash is never worn on belt or with merit badge sash.) What is this tan shirt that is referenced? jpstodwftexas - It is a common occurrence on this forum for someone to pose a question about "proper" behavior, the correct answer is given and then selected folks jump on those who provided the correct answer by calling them uniform police, not having the best interest of the boys at heart and other similar red herrings. Wearing the sash on the belt is incorrect - regardless of who or how many do may wear it that way or if someone points it out to someone or not. Now I have a question for you. Why the random capitalization of words?(This message has been edited by acco40)

Most people think of BORs as the last step in advancement for a particular rank and that is one of the purposes of a BOR. The other is to evaluate the program that the Scoutmaster is carrying out. There is a reason that the Scoutmaster and Assistant Scoutmasters should not be present at a BOR and why a committee member should not necessarily be performing SA tasks on outings. If a requirement is signed off, it has been completed in the vast majority of circumstances. Now, if the BOR is noticing a trend that indicates to them that Scouts are coming to them with requirements signed off and they feel the scouts have no particular skill in that area - that is a warning sign of a possible poor program. As for uniforming - if a Scout's family has the means and the Scout appears for a BOR, that was schedule in advance, in disarray, it is quite natural for the board to politely ask the Scout to return at a later date when properly uniformed. Like others have said, BORs, like SMCs, can be held for the purposes of advancement or for other reasons. I don't like prearranged BORs - i.e. the committee will make itself available for BORs next Wednesday evening. Get with Mrs. Smith to set up a time if you are interested. Why not teach the Scout some responsibility and have him call the troop advancement chair to set up a date and time for a BOR. That does a couple of things. First, the committee knows the Scout scheduled it for advancement. When the committee schedules a BOR, it should be for other purposes (like lack of advancement). Second, it teaches the Scout how to address adults and take some responsibility (don't have him pencil in a date, email or text message - have them have an honest to goodness phone or personal conversation). This will be valuable "job interview" experience later in life.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Patrol Leader - thanks for asking and I assure you, you will get many varied answers. First, being a leader is difficult. Sometimes a badge, title and/or patch is not enough - you need to learn how to get the Scouts to follow your lead. I would talk to the SPL and tell him that instead of trying to boss or command the boys to stop talking try to imitate good behavior yourself. Have the SPL, adults, yourself, etc. just cease talking until the talkative Scouts learn to be quiet. Sort of like a troop version of the Cub Scout "signs-up" except no physical sign. Second, I'm not a big proponent of having a patrol leader come from outside of a peer group. I'm sure right now, the new scouts feel like you are an outsider. Did they elect you or were you assigned to that patrol by the SPL and/or Scoutmaster? Third, it varies by troop but when I was a Scoutmaster, all patrol leaders were elected and they held their position for a minimum of six months. No threat of removal by the SPL or adult leaders. Not all troops operate this way however. I've always struggled with the fact that many of the adults don't follow the "rules" of the BSA and feel they can freelance / pick and choose what they follow. According to the BSA, the members of each patrol should elect one of their own to serve as patrol leader. The troop determines the requirements for patrol leaders, such as rank and age. I might suggest that you talk to the SPL about the possibility of assigning a troop guide to the new scout patrol to mentor a patrol leader for that patrol - with the patrol leader coming directly out of the new scout patrol. When I was a Scoutmaster, when I had a new scout patrol of at least 4 scouts, I would have each scout serve as patrol leader for 30 days or so, giving each scout a chance to experience the position and have an older scout, such as yourself, serve as troop guide to mentor the patrol leader - making sure that the troop guide did not overshadow the PL. See if that works. By the way, sometimes I had difficulty, as a Scoutmaster, getting the boys to settle down and keep quiet why I or another adult was talking. Sometimes, that was a sign of a troop meeting that was not that engaging for some of the boys. The trick is to get them to want to listen.(This message has been edited by acco40)

I wear my OA sash under my hat, along with my dutch oven. I keeps my neck strong and I don't get accused of showing off. Also, since nothing in the BSA literature states I can't do this, it must be okay.

I wore my silver shoulder loops only when I was acting as a Unit Commissioner. I wore my blue when acting as a Webelos Den Leader and wore my red as a Scoutmaster. If I wore my silver as a Scoutmaster advertises that that either I'm ignorant of BSA uniform policy or an ego centric bore who chooses which guidelines to follow (like may who frequent this forum?). Position patches are more difficult to spot than the shoulder loops but yes, they are somewhat redundant.(This message has been edited by acco40)

First of all, what I stated in my earlier post wasn't "my way" of doing things, it was the BSAs preferred way of how things should be done. Why is our society making so many judgements that things must be wrong because they may be difficult? Helping out at a den meeting is very difficult to do when one is not at the den meeting. What value does a den chief add at a pack meeting? Most dens may meet three times a month (once a week except for possibly the pack meeting week). So that's three hours a month - a total of 18 hours for a full POR if no meetings are missed. What does that say of our expectations of the boys when we immediately give them the impression that spending 18 hours in a half a year is an exorbitant time commitment? What I found works our real well is to have two den chiefs for den! That is what I had when I was a Webelos den leader. First, the den was large. Second, the Boy Scouts (1st Class) really enjoyed working together. Third, as a den leader familiar with the Boy Scout program, I knew how things worked. I did all the planning, had a brief overview with them and they carried out the plan. Besides, fifth grades boys will listen to a 13 year old a lot better than some 40 year old man pushing 50! A highlight was a summer Webelos Woodlands campout (4 days at the council camp for Webelos only). I gave the Den Chiefs a lot of rope and the fact they felt like kings. They went from being lowest on the totem pole in June (attending just their second summer camp) to the highest on the totem pole with boys who had never camped at that location or without their parents before (for some of them). As teenagers will do, I let them stay up late and one morning, they were not up in time for breakfast (all the Webelos were) and I just let them sleep and went off to breakfast with the den. When we returned an hour later, they were still asleep so I gathered the Webelos together and told them to tell the boys to hurry up or they would miss breakfast (they stopped serving breakfast a half-hour earlier). Well they stumbled out of bed and the joke was on them and the younger ones got to put one over on them. I knew all the boys well so I knew it would be no issues. Later in the day, both Boy Scouts came up to me and thanked me for letting them sleep in and trusting them to be on their own for an hour or so. As it turned out, out of the five Webelos Scouts and two den chiefs at that outing, four earned Eagle.

Arghhhhh! No, shoulder loops do not help to hold up a merit badge or Order of the Arrow sash unless you really do something funky with your uniform. Epaulets do that for you. Shoulder loops are helpful indicators to tell if one is in Cub Scouts, Boy Scouts, District/Council position, etc. They should not be viewed as one being better or worse than one another.

For some reasons putting in poisons in the water to kill the living organisms in it doesn't pique my interest in drinking the water. Yes, some of the chlorine turns to gas and is gone by the time of human consumption but still . . .

One good way to reduce the stress, especially for the younger Scouts, is not to refer to it as a "swim test" but as a swimming classification or swim check. For summer camp, nobody "fails" the swim test. They are just classified as a beginner or a swimmer or a non-swimmer. Being classified as a swimmer allows one to go into different areas of the lake. Being classified as a beginner still allows one into the lake, just into different areas (i.e. shallow areas). Yes, there are some who are fish in pool but freak out in a lake. I've never failed a swim test as an adult but I do find that I have to exert myself way to much to accomplish the task. One year, at summer camp, they asked me to administer the swim checks. Well, I was assigned a scout and the first thing I asked him was how good of a swimmer he was. He assured me he was but kept asking me how deep the water was. I stand around 5'7" and told the scout (a few inches shorter that me) that I could stand flat-footed on the lake and the water would come up to about my eyeballs. He was really nervous, I could tell but he kept reassuring me he was a good swimmer. Well, I finally gave him enough encouragement to jump in (feet first into water over the head, level off, and begin swimming) and he just started to thrash around wildly. Right before I was about to jump in to "rescue" him, he was able to swim three or four feet closer to shore and stand up. I felt bad but he had just classified himself as a beginner (he could jump in and sort of leveled off and swam about 25 feet - just not in a straight line)!

In my 15 or so years as a Scouter as both Den Leader, Scoutmaster, father of two Scouts and as a Unit Commissioner, I found that a den chief was one of the most bastardized positions in Scouting. First of all, some Scoutmasters view the den chief as a "first" POR for a young scout. Some Cubmasters view the position as requiring a well seasoned Boy Scout who has mastered leadership. Even rudimentary den chief training states that the primary duty is to help out at den meetings so stating such things a "I don't think they need to attend all the den meetings" show a weak understanding of the position in my estimation. Second, the SPL should be selecting den leaders as well as the Scoutmaster (not his mother who also happens to be the den leader of his younger brother's den!). Once selected, they should be approved by the Cubmaster and Pack Committee and only then recommended to a den leader. It is my experience that almost all packs are willing to take on a den chief if the Scout is well behaved and the program is explained to the pack. As a unit commissioner, this could be your role - to educate the pack on the function of a den chief.

Come to the realization that life isn't fair. There will be parents that offer to drive to every event and other parents who will find an excuse to not drive ever. After driving Scouts to and from outings for seven years as a Scoutmaster, I was offered gas money only once by a Scout (oh, yeah, my mom said to give you this). I didn't blame any of the Scouts. Now, for pure numbers, we had the same type information on our permission slips as Kudu and also had a line with "Can you pull the troop trailer" (plus a database on insurance coverage for each automobile as required by the tour permits at the time). I let the adults coordinator worry about transportation issues - I had enough issues on my plate. That was one of the few planning items that I took off the youth's plate.

The question isn't really about water purification it is about responsibility. Before the trek, figure out as a patrol how water purification will be done as a patrol and then share the task, load and equipment. We had a similar issue when we went backpacking with no clean water source in New Mexico. We had three adults and six youth. We carried two steripens and three water filters (pumps). Earlier dry run trips we used a miox water purification and different types of filters as well as tablets. As adults, we took the lead wrt water purification methods because we were aware of our water source in New Mexico - stagnant pools in open galvanized tubs, often with lots of algae and a few dead carcasses floating in it. We "bandana filtered" first to remove the big debris and to keep from clogging up our micron filters. The steripen killed the virus' that could get by the filter. The water was the best tasting I've ever had. The scouts responsibility was to get the water (three gallon collapsible container). That required about a 100-200 yard hike. We would work as a team to filter the water which required quite a bit of hand pumping but the adults did most of it. We would then use the steripen (watch out for red colored Nalgene bottles - you can't read the LEDs!). A steripen may do the trick on its own but seeing debris floating in your water, regardless of it being sanitary, was not a appetizing. I feel the filter plus steripen was an excellent choice. We would filter, as a minimum, two full Nalgene bottles per person plus enough water for cooking and cleanup for the meal at hand. Being the desert, water was a precious resource and if you are very careful, clean up can be done with about a cup of water.

He agreed to meet privately and quietly with BSA leadership. I would not call that showboating. I'm a member of a catholic church and I don't support the current policy. So your statistics are hollow.(This message has been edited by acco40)

It is easy. A Scouter (and Scout) should strive to be properly uniformed. To do that, they should understand what constitutes proper uniforming. Also, uniforms are not a barrier to joining the BSA - they are not mandatory (please don't bring up Jambo). There are many folks more than willing to help out with proper uniforming. However, when a family can provide their son with Air Jordans, an iPod and a smart phone complains to me about uniform prices I generally roll my eyes.

Again, he is doing exactly what the Scout program has taught him. He is following the Scout Law and working within the system to implement change where he sees injustice. I'd be proud of any of the Scouts that I've had the pleasure of mentoring would act in such a fashion. Now to back pedal a bit, I don't know this Scout from Adam so I'm not giving him a blanket endorsement but I see no issue with this particular action. Also, at age 20, he is performing this as an adult in the eyes of the BSA.

The Sunday breakfast is always an interesting meal for young patrols (I am a firm believer in age or peer based patrols). The boys sometime eat what they like first and not what was planned on a per meal basis. Well, that morning, the last meal before departure, the patrol wanted to make pancakes and they had very little mix. So, they opened up the new large bag of Oreos, gave them a twist, scraped off the icing with their teeth/tongues and threw the "shells" into a mixing bowl. They then crushed the cookies and mixed it with the pancake mix more than doubling the quantity but producing jet black pancakes with a strange taste. P.S. The boys loved it and as a Scoutmaster, I encouraged their inventiveness but also discussed hygiene.

Remember, as a Scoutmaster, you are the public figure for the troop and a role model for the youth. Once, at summer camp, I was asked to help out the camp staff in reviewing medical forms. One thing they taught me was that we were not to challenge the signatures on the medical forms. I agree with that stance. However, as a unit Scouter, I sure would not condone that practice in my unit.

Yep, most got this correct - (all violations except for #5). Now, my mea culpa. As a merit badge counselor, I made an arrangement to meet a scout at his house. I knew his father (a Scouter from another troop). So, I went to his house after work and went over his paperwork (worksheets for the Personal Fitness merit badge). After about 10 minutes with the Scout I noticed that it was fairly quiet at his house and casually asked if his mother or father were home (or a sister/brother). No, just me he answered. Well, I didn't make a big deal of it but did tell him that I wasn't supposed to meet with him one-on-one (he was an older Scout, around 16 or 17) and he seemed surprised. Since that horse had left the barn, I continued for another 15 minutes or so to finish up and left. Now I make a point of asking up front if I arrive at a Scouts house as a MBC if the Scout is alone and/or remind them when scheduling a visit that he needs to have an additional "person" at home. Another time at the end of summer camp one year all the boys got picked up except for one. His parents were divorced and I asked him who was suppose to pick him up - mom or dad. He didn't know. Well, mom assumed dad was going to and dad assumed mom was. Meanwhile, after asking parent to meet us around 10:00 AM - 11:00 AM here is was at 1:00 PM and no one to pick this Scout up. I made one of my assistants stay with me and we finally were able to get a hold of the Scouts grandfather and he made the 2.5 hour trip up to get him. My assistant scoutmaster wasn't happy but understood. Sometimes, I think I should have just practiced a few taut-line hitches and threw the scout in the trunk of my car. It would have gotten me home about 5 hours sooner.(This message has been edited by acco40)

For the life of me, I just don't get adults signing up to be be leaders and signing an application promising to deliver the BSA program and then immediately going in the opposite direction and ignoring the program. One may caveat and rationalize away until the cows come home but why not just follow the program?

The unit Advancement chair was very well organized and with a lot of experience in the job. Also he is an Assistant Scoutmaster. So exactly how does one dual register as a committee member and assistant scoutmaster?

Webelos? I can top that! Our troop and one other troop from our area were invited to attend the West Point Scoutmasters Camporee put on by the cadets. Our two troops were combined, similar to a national jamboree, so we would fill a camp site and also a bus (held around 60 folks). The boys in my troop were a little aghast at the way the adults in the other troop overshadowed the scouts and my oldest, the SPL in our troop and around 16 at the time took a little umbrage when I suggested that the SPL from the other troop act as the "combined" troop SPL - not because he was better, older or a higher rank but because the scouts in that troop outnumbered us about 2:1. Well, on the second day, with lots of rain, an Eagle scout from the other troop (no disability mind you) went up to his mother and asked her to tie his shoes. My boys (Scouts in our troop) and came up to me and were totally flabbergasted! I used it as a lessen to not judge others, to keep snide and cynical remarks to themselves, etc. but I knew exactly where they were coming from. C'est la vie.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Other Committee Members weren't available to serve at the BOR at the time it needed to be scheduled. Needed to be scheduled? A good learning experience for the Scout is to see what happens when he butts up against "deadlines." I have approximately 30 engineers who report to me and the fact that a proposal is due on June 12th doesn't mean that they have until the 11th to conclude their analysis. With red team reviews, blue team reviews, gold teams reviews, configuration management, etc. they have to get used to the fact that their work needs to be completed two to three weeks prior to proposal submission. If these engineers were Scouts and were not pandered to by adults who thought they "needed" to have a BOR complete because a COH was coming up, they may have learned a valuable lesson.(This message has been edited by acco40)

but the CC has more power cause they CAN replace the SM/CM with approval of the COR. Please back this up. One of the responsibilities of the committee is to see that good leaders are recruited and trained. The committee may not remove leaders. The committee, the Scoutmaster or complete strangers may lobby the charter organization to remove adults leaders but only the charter organization may do so.

I agree, if a unit is struggling with "who's the boss" the unit is doomed. I don't disagree with you providing, as acourtesy to the committee, your ideas for program. That helps grease the wheel for getting their support. However, I do feel that it was a courtesy, not mandatory. It is not the committee's responsibility to approve or disapprove the program that the youth, in conjunction with your guidance, develop. The only extent of their approval/disapproval is to make sure you are carrying out the policies and regulations of the BSA. I had a great relationship with our CC. I used to tease him and state that during the annual planning meeting, the youth leaders decided that we would be going to summer camp at Camp Pupukea in February and it was the committee's responsibility to support that decision and make that happen. It just so happens, by coincidence, that this Michigan resident found the idea of spending time in Oahu during the winter a sound decision.

Boards of Review for Tenderfoot through Life ranks should consist of not more than three and not more than six troop committee members - period. If you don't have three committee members - you can't be a troop! So I don't understand the new caveat that was added In units with fewer than three registered committee members available to serve, it is permissible to use knowledgeable parents (not those of the candidate) or other adults (registered or not) who understand Boy Scoutings aims. So, may you serve on the BOR as a unit commissioner for that unit? Only if you were a committee member for that unit too.(This message has been edited by acco40)