acco40

Bringing a knife to school in Michigan will not just get you expelled, it will get you banned from attending public school in the STATE of Michigan. That is why, years ago when my Bear den earned their Whittlin Chip, it was done away from school. Heck, I can't even bring toe nail clippers on board an airplane, yet alone a knife. I will say that because most boys are not exposed to knives at a young age (7 - 11 yr) when they have one for the first time in this age group they are very unprepared. The thought that they could injure doesn't even occur to many. The simple act of closing a pocket knife is a hiar raising experience for me to witness for most scouts this age. I bring a pocket knife on Troop outings but not on my person.(This message has been edited by acco40)

If you are going to quote lyrics, use the "Master" You got a lot a nerve to say you are my friend When I was down you just stood there grinning You got a lot a nerve to say you got a helping hand to lend You just want to be onthe side that's winning You say I let you down, you know it's not like that If your're so hurt why then don't you show it? You say you lost your faith, but that's not where it's at You have no faith to lose, and you know it I know the reason that you talk behind my back I used to be among the crowd you're in with Do you take me for such a fool To think I would make contact? The one who tries to hide what he don't know to begin with You see me on the street, you always act surprised You see how I could look, but you don't mean it When you know as well as me You'd rather see me paralized Why don't you just come at once out scream it? No, I do not feel that good I see the heartbreaks you embrace If I was a master thief perhaps I'd rob them And though you're dissatisfied with your position and your place Don't you understand, it's not my problem? I wish that for just one time you could stand inside my shoes And just for that one moment I could be you Yes, I wish that for just one time you could stand inside my shoes You'd know what a drag it is to see you.(This message has been edited by acco40)

The troop that my family is involved in is going through some trying leadership changes. Our committee chair (great guy, but for now has about two weeks of experience as CC) talked with a member of the charter organization. This member was a former SM, highly respected by all, sort of a SM emeritus if you will. Some of his comments concerned committee voting. For example, in the selection of a new SM, the committee chair should formulate a fairly small (4 person) sub-committee, do their homework, interview candidates, and then present their recommendation to the full committee. If they did their job correctly, consensus is done, and no voting is required. A full committee vote could involve spouses of candidates, create factions, etc. and so ideally, no vote would be needed. However, not all troops run with an ideal situations. Just realize that voting has advantages and disadvantages. To just say that voting should or should not occur misses the point.

I've pushed to award the boys when they earn the awards. If that is done, the stated situation cannot occur. Immediate recognition! For example, a boy earns his 2nd class rank at a camp-out. Award him (badge) that day and at the next COH we bring him up (with parent(s)) and acknowledge his accomplishment and present to him his card.

Am I having deja vu all over again? As Bob White posted earlier, try the SM Handbook.

"Although, technically, it isn't imitating a military uniform, it is imitating a naval uniform." You are sure to receive some flack with the above. Are you trying to voice an opinion that the Navy is not a branch of the U.S. military? You might have stirred up a hornets nest with that one! There are also laws about wearing military uniforms by civilians. Fairly obtuse with respect to BSA uniform policy but somewhat germain. Check out Mike Walton's story about the adult who was not allowed to a Scouting event (regional jamboree??) due to his behavior #1, but it all started out because of his refusal to replace his "camo" pants.

What the heck does a pack buy for $2000? - Have you priced a Pinewood Derby track recently? Should the Pack buy a track, rent a track, make a track, ..? Excellent topic to discuss by the full committee after a report by the committee person who has been assigned the task of organizing the Pinewood Derby. Having an open vote sometimes helps. Tiger parents may see the benefit of applying Pack resources up front now to save money in the future. 2nd Year Webelos parents, whose boys will leave the Pack in February before the Derby, may be hesitant to put out a big outlay now for possible monetary benefit in the future, long after their boys are gone. Although not explicity mentioned, voting is referenced by (the SM does not have a vote) PSA literature. Also, reference to a quorum implies voting. However, you don't want "paralysis by analysis" and have the committee forced to vote on every item that may come up. You do have to empower the various committee members to make decisions on their own.

The original post had nothing to do about former President William J. Clinton. The original post referenced an article that related that President Bush teared up/cried when telling the parents of a serviceman who was killed in combat that their son died for a noble cause. President Johnson was torn-up about the boys who were killed in Nam. He was so conflicted aboutthe war he could not run for a second term, an election that he in all probability could have won easily. What President has sent boys into harms way and thought it was not a noble cause? What President has been happy that their was a loss of life for US armed forces? In the high praise of Bush's crying, are you or anyone else implying that other presidents did not care? The parents of Palistinian suicide bombers believe their "martyred" sons & daughters died for a noble cause. Getting teary eyed about it is meaningless in my book. The Saudi's who went down on 9/11/01 believed they died for a noble cause. I do not envy any Commander in Chief who has the burden of life and death decisions upon his shoulders. The brave men and women who serve in our armed forces are trained to do their duty, without regard to the "nobleness" of the task. I have no doubt that President Bush cared deeply about the fallen soldier. But I want more from a President than caring. If the quote is accurate, "Today, we've got the mom and dad of a brave soldier who lost his life, and a brother.", it is typical Bush, garbled use of the English language. Did the brave soldier lose his brother? Anyway, I'm sure supporters of Bush and detractors of Bush will read into his actions what they want to believe. Their mind is already made up. What are Bush's thoughts on the fact that when his father was President he (Bush #1) sent Rumsfeld over to meet with the "butcher of Bagdad" and promised U.S. Government support including weapons, biological agents, and money to fight Iranians. When the Bush adminsistration knew full well that the Iraqi's gassed the Kurds, they publicly stated that the Iranians did it. Where was the nobility in that? You make a deal with the devil and you will come to regret it.(This message has been edited by acco40)

And don't forget to "Remember the Titans." One of the things the the new Woodbadge for the 21st Century" was trying to teach is how to adapt to inevitable change. Some just don't seem to be able to do it. I liked that fact that during my Specific Leader Training portion (Outdoor Essentials) we were put in patrols, and "graduated" from Scout to 1st Class from Friday night to Sunday evening. Not only did it teach us the core (basic outdoor essentials, duh!) but MORE important in my eyes, it showed us how the boys view the program from their perspective. A very valuable lesson. You didn't like all the talk and wanted more hands-on "do"? Well guess what, don't forget that lesson when you are with your troop!!(This message has been edited by acco40)

President Bush valiantly defended our country from slaughter from the skies by the evil Mexican Air Force. He served proudly amidst the sons of fellow politicians and influential businessmen. How dare anyone question his patriotism!

As a former politician once said, "I feel your pain." For whatever reasons (I don't want to get into it now, they are being addressed) our troop has lost most of our senior boys. This past week our SPL, ASPL and youth Quartermaster (ages, 15,15,and 13 have left the troop. Our most senior boys are now boys who are 12 and will have two years of experience come February. The SM wants to "promote" the two most senior boys to SPL and ASPL (promote, not elect mind you). The more I think about this the more I don't like it. They are our best patrol leaders and while good kids, they are not ready for SPL in my opinion. I would like them to remain as patrol leaders and have some of the ASMs serve as conditional Senior Patrol for a brief period (three to six months) to act as role models. I know this may fly in the face of most BSA doctrine but do not have an easy solution. If those boys become part of the senior patrol the troop will become essentially one big patrol because their will be no effective patrol leaders or patrol identies. I admit I am in the minority with this view in our troop. Right now my efforts are focused on correcting the problems that I feel caused the senior boys to leave. Thoughts?

Ed, just to clarify your statement that the Troop nominates adult OA candidates. It is my understanding that the Troop Committee (not SM or SAs) may nominate adult candidates if and only if the youth elect a youth candidate.

For tens of thousands of years certain segments of our society WERE EXCLUDED from certain things and they WERE NOT HAPPY. Yes, some prefer the company of their own gender for certain events. My view is that parents should be welcome at all scouting events but that the parents need to adapt to the scouting environment, not the other way around. If you need to "tie a mother to a tree" maybe she needs to be kept from attending further camping outings but to ban all females is going to far in my estimation. What my troop does to any parent that attends a majority of the camping trips and wants to "meddle" is to "threaten" to make them SAs. The parents quickly back down and get in line with such a potent threat. {I am only half-way joking on this one.}

"This assumes, as I've stated previously, the CO is willing and has the resources (enough adult males). It's their troop, and as long as it's a matter of building bonds between males and not bashing women, I see it as being legitimate." I want to make sure I understand your phrase "It's their troop." I'm guessing you meant that it is the boys troop. Many people are mistaken when they say the troop is the boys. It is not. The Charter Organization "owns" the troop. It is not the boys troop. That fact is unquestionable. If you meant the their to describe the CO/COR, you are 100% correct. If they (youths) do not want females present, they can take their wishes to the adult leaders and the CO/COR. However, what do you do when 85% don't want them, 15% do? Should a simple majority "rule?" The issue is fraught with danger.

Reading the now six pages of comments I had to alternatively laugh and cry. First a couple of points, 1) There is no BSA policy that says men have to be allowed on camp outs. 2) (For Yaworski) - Leave no trace policy does not want you to pee on a tree either. The salts from your urine are very attractive to animals who will lick/chew the bark and damage the tree. Pee on a rock instead. I've seen just as many men as women "baby" their sons on a camp out. My personal policy (I'm a male Scouter) is that I do not attend my son's first few camp outs (including their first summer camp) because they need to get that experience without mom or dad. It is very difficult to be seen in the eyes of your son as SM/SA instead of mom or dad. There are specific rules and policies that need to be adhered to if females are present. Parents who attend can be an asset or a problem regardless of their gender. An interesting problem is when the youth do not want females (mothers) on camping trips. I think a good question to ask is why. I have noticed that the youth of today have taken modesty to the nth degree compared to when I was a youth (30 - 35 years ago). Is this because of our society's fascination with sex, sex crimes, etc. although it is less pervasive now than 30 years ago? Who knows? I am not aware of any reason that I would consider legitimate thatthe boys may have with respect to adult females on the trips. That said, I think the adult females need to adapt to the BSA environment, not have the boys adapt to the female presence. I don't see this adaptation so much as behavior modification as the use of latrines, cooking techniques, personal hygiene, etc. I would be very wary of any organization for youth that did not allow observation by either or both parents. How can you exclude a single mother from observing what goes on with her 12 year old son on a camp out? You are asking her to put a lot of trust in adults she may not know very well at all.

The feedback that I've been getting about my district's BALOO training has been very negative. They did state during the course, correctly or incorrectly, that BALOO training was not required to take the Pack camping (overnight). Outdoor Webelos Leader (OWL, NOT WLO - Webelos Leader Outdoor) training was well received. It did not mimic but was very similar to the SM Leader Specific training course. The OWL training was a very condensed version of the SM LS training in my view.(This message has been edited by acco40)

This is a bad question for either Bob White or I to answer because even thought they are properly called "parent pins" the mothers usually abscond with the pins and the fathers don't have to worry (or don't get to worry) about if they can wear them on their uniform proper. {Smile everyone I am joking!!}(This message has been edited by acco40)

Please note that PRAY, the organizaton referenced by sctmom does not cover the majority of religious emblems that are available. They only cover Protestant and independent Christian faiths. Catholicism, Judaism, Muslim, Hindu, and many, many more are not covered by PRAY. Your best bet is to go to the religious organization itself. That is the organization that sets the requirements for the award, not the BSA. (This message has been edited by acco40)

Yaworski, you will find the word "should" many times in BSA publications. The word "must" is rarely used. As Bob White, myself and others have pointed out, with respect to uniforms in the BSA there are two, field and activity. What do you mean when you refer to "dress" uniform?

Yaworski, you proved my point! No, there is no such thing as an informal flag ceremony. And the SM Handbook states that "Boy Scouts and Scout leaders proudly wear the full uniform for all ceremonial and indoor activites including troop meetings, boards of review, and courts of Honor. The uniform should also be worn during speacial outdoor occasions, such as flag ceremonies, Scout shows, and special times during summer camp." Therefore, they should not be in an activity uniform during such ceremonies. Therefore, I conclude, and I agree that not everyone shares this opinion, to place my hand over my heart when wearing the activity uniform. If you read the SM Handbook in context, the "full uniform" in question is the field uniform. The big picture is that we should teach the boys respect for the flag. If they do this by saluting by bringing the two (Cub), three (Boy Scout) or full finger (Venture) to the brim of the hat or hand over the heart is a lesser issue.

Bob White, I disagree. Straight from the SM Handbook: "Boy Scouts and Scout leaders proudly wear the full uniform for all ceremonial and indoor activites including troop meetings, boards of review, and courts of Honor. The uniform should also be worn during speacial outdoor occasions, such as flag ceremonies, Scout shows, and special times during summer camp. During physically active outdoor events and informal activites, Scout may wear an activity uniform - troop or camp T-shirts with Scout pants or shorts." MY interpretation of this is that during formal flag ceremonies (when saluting occurs) the full uniform (field) is worn. Formal flag ceremonies and activity uniforms should be mutually exclusive events. Therefore, when in activity uniform, right hand over heart. However, this is a gray area, similar to the hats on/off debate. FYI, I'm a hats (full uniform hat) on guy during flag ceremonies inside, at church, or where ever.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Bob White I think your are confused. In the SM Handbook, it specifically states that "the purpose of the board of review in not to retest a Scout". It does not state in black and white that the SM conference is not a place to retest. However, I agree, the SM conference is not the place to retest either. My comment said "It is the Scoutmaster's Conference where the check-up is done to make sure the requirements are met. It is not the intent of the BOR to determine this!" Because the SM conference is the first place a scout goes after he believes he has completed all of the requirements for any rank (through Life), what I met was that the SM can review to see that the requirements are properly "checked-off"; that is completed. That is what I meant by making sure the requirements are met. No, a SM should not test the scout. But I have seen instances where a scout will schedule a SM conference and when the SM reviews the requirements he finds that one has not been completed. It is more of a bookkeeping check-up than a skill set check-up. The SM conference should build on the relation between the SM and scout, not be adversarial in nature.

I know that this will get some flack but here goes: The sooner my children learn that my life DOES NOT revolve around them, the better. To say that I will not commit to an event if my son is not in it is ludicrous. Rooster, you obviously do not have more than one child. As a volunteer leader, I volunteered to LEAD, not cater to my childs whims. As an SA, joining when my oldest crossed over into Boy Scouts, I purposely did NOT go to his first camp-out and to summer camp that first year. Did he like that, no. But he needed to go without mom or dad. That is part of the scouting experience in my book. Now, I go on almost all of his outings, 80% as SA, 20% as dad. I've seen too many leaders who only go if their son goes and don't allow their son to go if they don't. How sad. What are they teaching their children?

As my favorite announcer would say, Whoa Nellie! It is the Scoutmaster's Conference where the check-up is done to make sure the requirements are met. It is not the intent of the BOR to determine this! My son will make life (I believe) this December and he won't be turning 13 until August. I have not signed one single requirement nor pushed him with respect to rank advancement. If a scout attends the camp-outs, reads his book, participates in fund raisers, service projects, etc. it is quite easy to advance in rank. The main thing that holds my son back is the "time in rank" requirements. I fully support that requirement by the way. Maturity cannot be learned, it needs to be gained. As for Eagle. I DO NOT want him to obtain Eagle before he turns 15.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Although widely used by Scouters and Scouts, the BSA does not recognize the terms Class A and Class B. I'm not sure where those terms originated. When in Field Uniform, the scout should salute appropriately (right had to brim of hat). When in activity uniform (or street clothes), the scout should place right hand over heart. This can be found in many different BSA publications. I believe the Scoutmaster Handbook is one. An interesting tidbit: Rule 80.2 The Scout Salute The Scout Salute is made only by Members of the Movement (except Beaver Scouts) in uniform on formal Scout occasions, as a mark of respect at the hoisting on National flags, at the playing of National Anthems, to uncased Colours, Scout flags and to funerals. Beaver Scouts do not salute. The above is from the United Kingdom Scout Asssociation. Beaver Scouts are roughly the equivalent to our Cub Scouts.