acco40

The "boy led" phrase causes all types of consternation in Boy Scouts. BSA allows female Scouters. That is a fact. It is not something that the boys should have a say in at all. To say the WOMEN should find another troop is preposterous. If the boys don't like it, they should find another troop. In Scouts, it was not until 1965 that the first woman professional Scouter appeared. It was not until 1967 that the title Den Leader was recognized (was den mother). It was not until 1973 that the national Executive Board voted to allow women to serve as institutional representatives, Cub Scout roundtable commissioners, Cub Scout unit commissioners, unit chairmen, and unit committee members, den leaders, assistant den leaders, and den leader coaches. Females are leaders (Committee Chairs, Scoutmasters, Cubmasters, etc.) of many units. A boy doesn't like a female on a camping trip? Get over it. If he does not like a particular action, that is different. A charter organization does have oversight over the leaders of a troop. They can exclude women, men, blacks, arabs, jews, etc. as they see fit. However, there sure would be politcal and possibly judicial feedback! (This message has been edited by acco40)

Simple solution, make the students police themselves. Declare that the restrooms will be open as soon as the students clean them. This is how society operates. Some drive recklessly so there are speed limits FOR ALL. The majority usually ends up paying for the mistakes and behavior of the few.

Simply put, Akela can sign off on all Cub requirements. It is explained in the book. For Cub Scouts in the Tiger, Wolf and Bear program, the scouts Akela may be a teacher, parent, den leader, grandparent, minister, etc. For Webelos Cub Scouts, in preparation for Boy Scouts, the den leader should sign off on all requirements. In my den I actually sign off on the requirements but nearly 100% of the time I take the parents word when I am told that the scout has done a requirement. More of the requirements are done in a den setting in the Webelos program, but not 100%. For Boy Scouts, a Scout wanting to complete an advancement requirement must demonstrate to his leader that he has fully mastered a skill at the level expected. In a new-Scout Patrol the leader might be the Assistant Scoutmaster, or the troop guide assigned to the patrol. Scouts in regular patrols might be tested by adult troop leaders or by their own patrol leaders, troop guides, or another junior leader, provided that the boy leader has already earned the rank the Scout is aiming for. It is up to these leaders to make absolutely sure that Scouts have accomplished the skill that they are being approved for. When a Scout successfully demonstrates that he has completed a requirement, his leader acknowledges that fact and records the achievement with the troop scribe. In my troop, when at all possible, we encourage the Scout's Patrol Leader to sign-off on requirements. The scribe keeps track of every Scout's advancement progress along with the Committee Advancement Chair. You will find many troops that concentrate "power" in the SM. That is not dictated by BSA and certainly not endorsed by me.

Mike F, I agree with 99% of what you wrote. However, you have to ask the question, is the goal of the BSA to have the most efficiently run patrols with the best leaders or is it to teach leadership to the boys? I believe your emphasis is on the former, mine on the latter.

One of the things that our troop does is to try to leave as early as possible on Sunday morning as possible for ALL scouts. They do have school work after all. We leave it up to the discretion of the SM. For example to meet the requirement for a summer camp "patch", it was stated that the scout needed to attend the whole camp (Sunday afternoon - Saturday morning). A Scout asked if he could leave Friday evening (had a sporting event on Saturday). The SM gave him permission. We do it on a case by case basis.

The Troop to which I am SM has as sixteen boys. The oldest is twelve. The youngest is 11. We do not "push" the boys to advance in rank. Two boys push themselves and each other and will be Life Scouts very soon, both many months before they reach 13. Many of the boys have nearly one year of experience and are not yet reached/earned Tenderfoot. The interest in advancement is not present within them. We do present the OPPORTUNITY for advancement to them. As I see it, my primary goal as SM is to teach leadership skills to the boys. As my Calculus teacher so eloquently told me, math is like sex, you learn by doing, not by watching. The SPL and ASPL received their initial leadership training by becoming trained and serving as den chiefs (which they still do). They were elected PLs and recently became SPL and ASPL. Do they fully comprehend the responsiblities of their new positions? I don't think so but they will learn. In my troop, all of the boys are essentially peers age wise. They will have to lead boys who are sometimes older than they are. They learn, sometimes the hard way, how to lead. I encourage patrols to stay together. I am a believer that you do not want to keep mixing up the patrol membership to balance out experience levels within the patrol. Leadership may be best when it is consistent but if the current SPL remains until he leaves the troop, the rest of the current boys would have a one year window for all fourteen of them to serve as SPL. We allow, as per BSA policy, leaders to be re-elected (no term limits!). Again, the main goal is to teach leadership, not always have the best leader in place at all times. Do you ever let someone other than your best cook prepare meals? Same applies to leadership. Now to get back on topic... The BSA does have aims, methods, guidelines, policies, etc. They are very good at diseminating this information. The "whys" and "hows" are not quite as clear and reasonably so. I have seen "age creep" in the downward direction from the BSA. Tigers are now integrated more into the Pack. Webelos Cub Scouts are becoming less "cub like" and more "scout" like. Boys are becoming Eagles at a younger and younger age. I believe this is a response by the BSA for retention purposes. It is easier to retain the boys at a younger age. Do I agree with it, not 100%. Fifth graders and seniors in high school don't have much in common and make it difficult for a troop to have activities that will interest both. The same goes for Packs with first graders and fifth graders. Having dens with similar ages and patrols with similar aged boys helps to alleviate this problem. Nothing in the Cub Scouts says a den can't be composed of Tigers, Bears, Webelos, etc. Nothing in the BSA says Eagles and Tenderfoot scouts can't be in the same patrol. However, I don't recommend it.

My den meets a minimum of once a week (which includes a monthly Pack meeting). However, we add on top of that visits to Troops, camp-outs, hikes, Scouting for Food, popcorn sales, and other activities. The "other activities" usually take place on the weekend. The parents and boys will let you know how you are doing by voting with their feet. If attendance falls off, your meetings need improvement. Kittle, Please don't "pole" the parents. That is a rather harsh and medieval punishment. I would not poll them either about how often, but I do poll them about which day of the week we should meet at the beginning of the year and then stick with it throughout the year. I've had parents that prefer to meet once a month. Compromise is not always best. Try to meet at least once a week (I do take a two week sabbatical during Christmas holidays) throughout the school year and I also meet less frequently during the summer, approx. twice a month plus residence camp. It always amazes me that when the boys have the most free time, the summer, so many Packs and dens essentially shut down.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Eamom, With your Venture & Catholic upbringing experience, would you let married (to each other) Venturers, who are 20 years old, share a tent? Under BSA guidelines, one should not (still considered youth if under 21). How about a female Scoutmaster share a tent with her 17 year old son? Not recommended, but allowed under BSA guidelines.

As a Den Leader & SM with Scouts who are ADHD/ADD and on medications I would not dream of informing a parent about raising or lowering their son's medication from my experience with him. I'm sure the parent has spent much more time dealing with this issue than I have. I have an interesting story from a troop meeting last week. "John", a very active ADHD boy in my troop was having a difficult time behaving during a skill/game session. Two-thirds of the troop was involved is erecting tents (one leader, the others blind folded, a team building exercise) and one-third of the troop were judges. John was a judge and was supposed to remain silent but observant (he was standing and could walk about). Our normal meeting room in the Church was being used (garage sale?) so we were in the choir room with many "new" distractions. Anyway, the 11 yr old boy kept interrupting, picking up things he was not supposed to etc. Towards the end of the meeting I quietly and semi-privately asked him why his behavior was lacking this evening. He looked at me matter of factly and said, with no hint of sarcasm, "Because I have not had my pill today." Inside I chuckled and the best I could come up with was telling him that that was no excuse. He was correct of course, but I did not want him to use that fact as a crutch.

The knots with different color "rope" are easy to discern but some, like the Webelos Den Leader (all gold) it is difficult for these old eyes to distinguish the knot orientation.

One of the Bears (and a good ole Bear too) in my patrol was a female (District Committee Chair). She was an excellent camper and brought much to our patrol. The staff was approximately 40% female, including the SPL but I would say that the Wood Badge participants were about 15% female. No separation occured in our course.

Three years? The goal in my household is 4.5 years! I could tell when my boys were Wolf, you could not see their hands! {Long-sleeve shirts, get it?}

A couple of observations ... The cost is the same whether the boy makes Eagle or not. "My son has been given opportunities because he is an Eagle ..." This statement can be interpreted two different ways. Those that decry "old boys network" status may say it is unfair that someone be given opportunities because they are an Eagle. Those that cherish what an Eagle scout should represent feel justified that opportunities be given to Eagle Scouts. In either case, it is true that Eagle Scouts are well represented as athletic team captains, military academy admissions, etc.

"A Webelos Scout may participate in overnight den camping when supervised by his mother or father. It is essential that each Webelos Scout be under the supervision of an adult. Joint Webelos den-troop campouts are encouraged for dens of fifth-grade Webelos Scouts with their parents to strengthen ties between the pack and troop. Den leaders, pack leaders, and parents are expected to accompany the boys on approved trips." from GTSS Somewhere I read that a Webelos Cub Scout parent (or guardian) may assign another parent suprevisory responsibility over their child but it cannot be the Den Leader. Not sure if this is 100% correct, I can't seem to find where I read this before.

Reference to the wearing of Wood Badge Beads, Neckerchief & Woggle: The "official wording" is somewhat cloudy and found in the current BSA Insignia Guide. However, here's what it comes down to: BEADS: The outward sign of the Wood Badge holder is the set of two, three or four beads suspended from a leather thong and worn around the neck of the holder. The Wood Badge may be worn with any official uniform of your movement, with the exception of activity or camp uniforms (for instance, you aren't supposed to wear them with a tee-shirt, even a BSA teeshirt, or with the BSA red or maroon "activity" (golf) shirts). The Wood Badge may be worn with the official dress blazer of the BSA but not with a civilian dress blazer. If worn with a field uniform, the beads are worn UNDER the neckerchief in back and ABOVE the ends of the neckerchief in front. If worn with other formal awards, the Wood Badge should be worn in front or placed on the uniform last (so that it is in front of any other suspended awards). If worn with the official dress blazer, it is worn UNDER the collar in back and OVER and CENTERED on the front of the tie. For female Scouters, it is worn UNDER the collar and centered on the buttons of the blouse or shirt. If worn with other formal awards, the Wood Badge should be worn in front or placed on the uniform last (so that it is in front of any suspended awards). There is NO "official" statement as to the wear of the three-bead necklace, however, informally, those who have worn or presented the beads to Scouters have insured that the side of the necklace with ONE bead is worn to the wearer's LEFT. I have seen Wood Badge information with the three beads displayed with the single bead to the RIGHT, however. I'm convinced that it's up to the individual Wood Badger. In the United States, there are only two, three or four-bead holders. The last person to hold five beads as a National Wood Badge Director, was "Green Bar" Bill Hillcourt, who passed away a few short years ago. NECKERCHIEF: There are two neckerchiefs associated with Wood Badge participation: The kelly green neckerchief with the brown axe-in-wood is known as the PARTICIPANTS NECKERCHIEF, and should be worn to, during and after Wood Badge Troop and Patrol activities and during the practical course. It is designed to be worn in units without a neckerchief option by the participant after the completion of the course to remind them of their obligation to complete all parts of their personal committement (their "ticket"). If worn by the Scouter, the neckerchief is worn with the field uniform and never with an activity uniform. The tan neckerchief with a swatch of MacLaren tartan centered on the back of it is known as the WOOD BADGE NECKERCHIEF, and is worn with the beads by non-unit Scouters at all times. Unit Scouters have the option of wearing their unit's neckerchief (recommended) or the Wood Badge neckerchief. The Woggle (the leather neckerchief slide) is worn always with the Wood Badge neckerchief or with the unit neckerchief when wearing the beads. The beads are worn as stated above under "beads". If a holder belongs to a unit which has chosen NOT to wear a specific neckerchief, he or she may choose to wear the beads WITHOUT the Wood Badge neckerchief; however, tradition dictates that the Wood Badge neckerchief is worn at any FORMAL Scouting occasion (Courts of Honor, District or Council recognition banquets and any time in which other Wood Badgers are present or when Wood Badge presentations are to be made). WOGGLE: This is the leather neckerchief slide which is presented as part of the Wood Badge presentation. It is recommended that this neckerchief slide be used whenever wearing the Wood Badge, whether you wear the Wood Badge neckerchief or a unit neckerchief. From: Mike L. Walton

Your Charter Organization has the "right" to pick and choose the leaders of the units under their charter. I don't know what type of recourse you have with them, but I would not just challenge the BSA if you feel that they had done wrong, but communicate with the Charter Organization too (in a civil manner).

Ideally, den leaders and the Cubmaster are not committee members. The Cubmaster should really act as an emcee for pack meetings and help coordinate the activities but the dens should supply the "meat." If an outside organization orentertainment is to be brought in (done way to much in my estimation), the pack committee should handle that. In my pack, yes the DLs and CM attend committee meetings but we do have a CC, Sec, Treasurer, Advancement Chair, etc. In my troop it is a little more formal, with much more parental involvement due to more $$$ and travel, etc.

My wife wears her parent pins during Courts of Honor on a ribbon attached to her "activity" uniform (an off-white polo shirt with the troop logo). She is a committee member. Yes the other parents know she has a Boy Scout but do they know she has a Webelos Cub Scout or a Brownie Girl Scout? I do not wear parents pins with my field uniform (or activity uniform) but see no problem with wearing them attached to something as temporary insignia on the right breast pocket. However, certain items such as service stars, medals, sashes, wood badge beads, etc. should not be worn on a regular basis but only for "special" (i.e. ceremonial) occasions.(This message has been edited by acco40)

It ain't spelling! For a new scout, the most important skill to learn is basic organizational skills, what he needs to bring to camp-outs, how to plan meals, etc. For a "seasoned" scout, the most important skill to learn is leadership. While extremely important, I don't put character, attitude, citizenship, etc. in the skill category.

Your are correct, a minimally trained committee member has less training in outdoor skills than a minimally trained SM or SA. Sorry, I do come on too strong sometimes.

My council does not charge units an insurance fee. When viewed as a $3.00 increase, the first increase in many, many years, the increased cost seems minimal. When viewed as a whooping 42.8% increase from one year to the next (do the math, from a $3 increase from a base of $7) it looks rather large. My take, it is a bargain for $10.00. What would you rather give your son, five years of scouting experience for $50 or the "Shoot once, kill once" video game for the same price?

"He has already learned, and been tested by people who are supposed to have more skills and training than you as a committee person." Where in the heck did this statement come from? It is baloney. I have experienced troop committees who have members that are Wood Badge trained, former Eagle scouts, former US Army Quartermasters, trained up the proverbial ying-yang, etc. To believe that SMs, SAs, youth leaders are SUPPOSED to have more skills and training than a committee person is ludicrous. They may or they may not. Getting back to the original question, look at the four steps to advancement: 1) A Scout Learns 2) A Scout is tested 3) A Scout is reviewed 4) A Scout is recognized Step #2 - a scout demonstrates to his leader (SM, SA, patrol leaders, troop guides, or other junior leaders provided that the boy leader has already earned the rank the Scout is aiming for) that he has fully mastered a skill at the level expected. Step #3 - After completion of all requirements, progress is reviewed by Scoutmaster conference and Board of Review. A Scout (not the SM) will be able to determine if he is ready to go before a BOR. NO TESTING IS DONE. The purpose of the BOR is NOT TO RETEST a Scout, but rather to ensure that he has completed all of the requirements, to determine the quality of his troop experience, and to encourage him to advance toward the next rank. I interpret "ensure that he has completed all of the requirements" similar to the job of a registrar at a college. Before I obtained my degree, someone checked to see if had the minimum GPA, took the right classes, had enough hours, etc. Nobody made me retake a calculus exam to see if I really understood partial differential equations! Similarly, the BOR checks the paperwork and makes sures all of the requirements are done (completed). For example, is everything signed off properly.

Give it a rest. This is a scout forum.

The money from popcorn sales goes three places: 1) To Trail's End 2) Council 3) Unit (Den, Patrol, Pack, Troop, etc.) The local council sets the retail price, not Trail's End. On average, over 70% goes to the Scouting program (#2 & #3). In my district, they give bonuses for completing paperwork on time, getting the money in on time, etc. The bonus is usually about 1% of sales. So, if my unit does everything correctly, they get about 37% of sales, the Council, 35% and the rest goes to Trail's End. How the unit wants to divide their amount, i.e. scout accounts, etc. is up to them. I like the concept of store sales (show & sell) going to the Troop/Pack and individual door to door orders (take orders) going into scout accounts. However, there is more of a need for scout accounts in Boy Scouts than in Cub Scouts due to the cost of frequent outings. Overall, it think it is an excellent program. On the down side, the new "four packs" were dogs. Many asked for the discontinued popping corn tins.

Unit Commissioner is NOT a troop or pack position. Yes, one can be a member of the a Troop (SA, SM, etc.) and a commissioner for that Troop [FACT] Yes, being a Unit Commissioner and a member of that Troop can be worrisome [OPINION] A COR may be a member of the Troop Committee [FACT] It is a good idea if the COR is a member of the Troop Committee [OPINION](This message has been edited by acco40)