acco40

Bob White, Rooster, Merlyn, et. al. The crux of the Supreme Court decision concerning BSA was if it was really a private or public institution. If private, they have the legal right to make their own membership rules. If public, they fall under a different yardstick. The SC deemed the BSA a private organization. Some disputed this (for example tax payer money helps fund the National Jamboree, public institutions such as public schools sponsor/charter units, etc.). I believe Merlyn's position is that you can't have it both ways. You can't claim the BSA is a private organization and can set its own membership rules AND receive government support. From a legal perspective, whether the BSA is a "good" organization or not is irrelevant. Rooster, if Merlyn thinks he is right, he has every right to post. The fact that the majority feel one way or the other does not matter.

Ed, You will have to forgive me. I can be kind of a smart arse sometimes (as you may have noticed in some of my posts!). acco40

Rooster7, Please read my post again. I'm not trying to equate a belief in God to Jim Crow laws. What I am trying to equate, and obviously not doing a very good job of it, is that not following Duty to God should be equal to not following Duty to Country (in the eyes of BSA). {In my eyes, god is infallible, my country has many faults.} Therefore, not violating Jim Crow laws should have been equal to not violating Duty to God. If a violation of the scout oath is ones criteria, one should make a violation of one of our country's laws just as much of a no-no as a non-belief in God.

The requirement states "at least six months since completing fourth grade OR FOR AT LEAST SIX MONTHS SINCE BECOMING 10 YEARS OLD. After they have completed the first five requirements for AOL, have they talked to a SM? Have they talked to the Webelos Den leader about their interest in becoming a Boy Scout? It is recommended, not required, that the boys DO NOT complete AOL early. If the boys do not recharter, they can't earn the AOL in February, They will not be BSA members at that time.

Rooster, was it not you who had such heartburn with the "get over it" comment? The BSA does have a belief in God requirement. Will it change? Who really knows? It had a policy of no female leaders. That changed. Change is not inherently evil. Should Eagle Scouts who did not follow the Jim Crow laws from southern states in the 1930's be stripped of their Eagle rank because they violated Duty to Country?

Bob White, I fully understand and accept the fact that the BSA does not ask WHAT we believe only that we DO believe so to speak. I have no problem with that requirement. I'm just stating that it is very difficult to get a good metric on what someone believes. Also, beliefs change over time. However, actions are much easier to measure. You can tell by the forum posts on this topic how decisive this issue is. We've got "defenders", "haters", etc. I find it very difficult in my work with Cubs, to put to much emphasis on religion and religious teachings. That is for their family to instruct them. I had one boy whose father was Jewish and whose mother was Christian. He was a very introverted and smart boy. He read the Webelos requirements and commented to me, "I guess I can't get my Webelos badge because I don't go to church." Did I cut him some slack. You bet I did. I told him to quietly reflect, think about the issue and made sure he understood that "going to church" was not the requirement. His family gave him no religious instruction. I feel it is not my place (as a den leader) to do so except only at a very high superficial level if at all. The scouting program can do wonders for boys like these, regardless of their stated "beliefs."

I understand the BSA's position on religion, Scout Oath and being reverent. Personnally, I like to judge a man's character by his actions and not his beliefs. I can separate the two, others cannot. I think what troubles many is organizations that judge a person by their beliefs. I realize that they have a right to do so. Trying to really determine someone's beliefs is a risky business and smacks of "thought police" to some.

It is considered a sin to spell "sponsor" correctly? Somebody please inform the Pack 4567 webmaster.

Tj, How dare you talk with such reason! (Yes, that was said with tongue firmly in cheek.)

Hey Ed, Look up two posts! Don't you trust me?

Compass, Have some faith in your kids. Many people that they meet and respect may have a different value system than their own (or should I say yours). One of the beauties of Scouting is that it exposes my children to people of many different backgrounds.

Compass, Your are correct. The Boy Scout Oath requires that we respect the rights of others to practice their own beliefs. A subtle but important distinction.

OGE, Does the "three strikes and your out" rule apply to you? You only have to hit return once.

I agree Bob. I agree more than you can imagine. Mr. Lambert does not meet the qualifications of the BSA. What I believe you and Rooster and others may not understand is that if YOU do not respect Mr. Lambert's beliefs (you can respect them and still believe he should be denied membership as I do) YOU should be denied membership as well. To be a member of the BSA you are required to accept the value system of the BSA. One of the values of the BSA is to respect the beliefs of others. Do you respect Mr. Lambert's beliefs? I do. Rooster7 has stated that he does not.(This message has been edited by acco40)

kwc57, I agree with you 100%. Well, not really. An atheist CAN be a Scout, witness, Mr. Lambert. An atheist MAY not be a Scout, witness the Scout Oath. My contention is that those who do not respect Mr. Lambert's beliefs MAY not be a Scout either because they do not respect the beliefs of others.

"I don't respect atheists." From the Meaning of the Boy Scout Oath (Boy Scout Handbook) . . . To do my duty to God . . . Your family and religious leaders teach you about God and the ways you can serve. You do your duty to God by following the wisdom of those teachings every day and by respecting and defending the rights of others to practice their own beliefs. To me, if you do not respect an atheist's beliefs, you do not follow the Boy Scout Oath.

This does not directly answer your question (or indirectly for that matter!). Our troop recently went to Mackinac Island and met a park range from Isle Royale. Her experience with BSA on the island was very negative, not very observant of LNT in her eyes. Of all of the campers who come to Isle Royale, the Scouts are the worst (her opinion). Please help to change that! Please educate your troop in Leave No Trace before you go! I just returned from a BSA camp and was appalled at all of the styrofoam, candy wrappers, pop cans, etc. all over. We need to do a better job in this area.

What to do about an organization that you really like, enjoy, and has merit but you do not believe in 100% of the tenets? Rooster, ASM7 & Bob White, do you respect and defend the rights of others to practice their own beliefs? (i.e. do you follow the Boy Scout Oath?) If so, what if those beliefs are atheism? Are you ignoring one third of the oath by not respecting this young mans beliefs? Rooster7, if you read the article closely, the young man skipped over parts of the oath & law so to accuse him of lying is a little harsh in my book. What I object to, is that the young man must have known about the Law, Oath, Reverent, Duty to God, etc. If he did not believe in that, work within the system to change it. Accept the consequences if it does not change. To me it boils down to the age old "good works" vs. "faith" dicotomy that philosophers have been debating for centuries.

One of the topics covered in the Wood Badge for the 21st Century course is dealing with change. It seems like many (as most people do) still have a difficult time dealing with change. P.S. Please no "Who Moved My Cheese" references. What is difficult in presenting training for Scout leaders is the tremendous spectrum of backgrounds that the leaders span. I've known Scouters with PhDs, MS, BS, high School diplomas and high school drop-outs. Trying to teach a course to that diverse mix can be very difficult.

Coweta, Oklahoma - Zip Code 74429 Indian Nations Council 3206 S. Peoria Tulsa, OK (918)-743-6125 www.okscouts.org

Reminds me of when I was in high school in the 70's. We had a smoking problem, students would congregate in the bathroom to smoke cigarettes. To stop this practice, the adminstration assigned each teacher a time period (between classes) to patrol the bathrooms. Needless to say, the teachers were not impressed and some started to wear arm bands with PP on them (Potty Patrol) in kind of a mock protest. The restroom patrols lasted all of one week.

If I can file my taxes (requires a signature), the capability to recharter online should not be to big of a hurdle.

WARNING WARNING WARNING If you die the ends of the rope, DO NOT make sure that the boys all have the color of rope in the same hand (i.e. red in left, blue in right). I am a left handed SM and Webelos Den Leader (no snide comments please). I don't make knots the same way as right handed people. I would suggest that the boys put the red end in their dominant hand, the blue in the other. Then instruct the boys. I can tie the knots very well, thank you very much, but when I instruct the boys I try to get them to visualize the knots and don't use left or right references. If you have a den of 100% righties (my condolences) you can ignore this post.

The proper name is the "Whittling Chip" card. When I bought mine they were five cents each. If you have a good printer go to: www.geocities.com/~pack215/whittlin-chip378x255.jpg I think it is legal to copy.

Fact: BSA allows female leaders. Fact: the CO can pick and choose the leaders of units they charter (with in BSA guidelines, i.e. age requirements, etc.). Fact: the boys can think or desire anything they want. Opinion (mine): The boys should have no say on who or who does not go on their camp outings. As for changing the rules, you can't have it both ways. If you join BSA, follow the rules. If you don't like the rules, feel free to challenge them (not violate them) any way you feel. The best way, IMO, is to work within the system for change. If the CO allows black leaders and the boys don't want them are you going to allow the boys to create a policy to ban black leaders from camp-outs? The same applies to female leaders. Your son doesn't like female leaders on camp-outs? That is his problem, not the female leaders.