acco40

I like the idea of patrol competitions, but if you believe in having a patrol of peers (i.e. Venture Patrol, Experienced Patrol, Pathfinder Patrol, etc.) the deck can be stacked against the younger folks. To remedy that situation, I usually put in various handicaps.

Thanks for your input. I knew it was not a good idea (I told him I did not think it would be a good idea.) but I wanted more 'ammunition" and you all provided it. Normally I would have given a firm "no" but we will be staying on private property and it is the owner who wanted to give the fireworks display. Well intentioned yes, but not a good idea. Again, thanks.

I'm not too familiar with the case but it seems to me that the issue was not if the men in question were gay or not, but were they advocates of (God, I hate this phrase) a "homosexual lifestyle." I surmised from the last sentence, stating that the appellate court believed that they had been vocal about their sexual preference to mean that if they were not, they would not have been expelled (shades of don't ask don't tell?). I tend to agree with the BSA's stance that sexual preference should not be a discussion topic with the youth.

My troop is venturing into Canada this coming weekend. A father (committee member) would like to give a fireworks display. No fireworks would be transported across borders or stored with any of the troop equipment. No boys would be handling fireworks. I told him I did not think it would be a good idea. From the Guide to Safe Scouting: Fireworks secured, used, or displayed in conjunction with program and activities is unauthorized except where the fireworks display is conducted under the auspices of a certified or licensed fireworks control expert. The selling of fireworks as a fund-raising or money-earning activity by any group acting for or on behalf of members, units, or districts may not be authorized by councils. We would not be selling or purchasing (with troop funds) any fireworks. We will be on private property (secluded area, near a lake) owned by a member of the troop. Comments? P.S. Nobody in the troop is a licensed or certified fireworks expert.

Rooster, You seem to have a habit of interjecting your thoughts and making them others beliefs. Where do you find any evidence that I believe Bush "staged his tears?" I stated no such thing. My only point is that having a president feeling sorry about loss of life doesn't exactly float my boat. Granted, the opposite, a president that does not care, scares the heck out of me! Put your biases aside and consider the following. If I stated that "We should be happy George W. Bush is president" because he showed up at a press conference in a smart looking suit with a nice red tie I don't think you would be in agreement with me 100% (I hope). Does that mean you feel Bush is not a good president? No. It just means that you think that being a sharp dresser does not make a president. Same with me, feeling bad about a loss of life (something I think 99.9% of the population feels) is not a good criteria either.

dan, I know it is in the BSA "doctrine" now but WE BE LOyal Scouts really grates on me. To me it just sounds like bad English or Ebonics. I know the BSA doesn't promote it anymore, but the Wolf, Bear, Lion, Scout (WeBeLoS) mnemonic is much easier on the ears. However, you are right. I should not just complain but offer a suggestion.

I don't despise Bush by any means. Heck, I voted for him in 2000. But to say he deserves praise for shedding a tear for a fallen veteran is rather fool hardy. As per President Bush's National Guard Service, the following was recently received by the Pentagon (not from me by the way): Department of Defense The Pentagon Washington, D.C. 20301-1900 To whom it may concern: Recently, I was made aware of allegations concerning several violations of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) by George W. Bush during the Vietnam War. The alleged acts include being Absent Without Leave (UCMJ Article 86) for a period of more than a year from his National Guard assignments in Texas and Alabama. According to the UCMJ, a person who is AWOL for more than 30 days with evidence of no intent to return to duty is guilty of Desertion. (UCMJ Article 85) To understand the gravity of this offense, one need only read the section 4.9.5 e. of Article 85, which states that the maximum punishment for desertion in a time of war (3), is, "Death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct". As far as I am aware, George W. Bush has never received any punishment for these alleged crimes, nor has he ever been charged. When I read about these allegations in national media outlets including, but not limited to; The Boston Globe(1), The Washington Post(2), The Birmingham News(3), and The Dallas Morning News(4), I decided to call the Department of Defense to find out what the Statute of Limitations was for these crimes. I was informed that because of the nature of the crimes; deserting one's country during a time of war, that there is NO statute of limitations, and these crimes, if proven, can still be prosecuted today. The purpose of this correspondence is to make a formal written complaint with circumstantial and documentary evidence of George W. Bush's violations of the UCMJ. Since he is the Commander in Chief of our armed forces, the details of his past service or lack thereof, are of particular interest to the American people. DETAILS: From May to November 1972, George W. Bush was living in Alabama working on the US senate campaign of Winton Blount and was required to attend drills with the Air National Guard unit in Montgomery, Alabama. There is no record that he attended any drills whatsoever. Additionally, General William Turnipseed ® who was commander of the unit at that time has stated in interviews that he never saw Bush report for duty. On September 5, 1972, Bush had requested permission to perform duty for September, October, and November at the 187th Tactical Recon Group in Montgomery. Permission was granted, and Bush was ordered to report to General William Turnipseed. In interviews, Turnipseed, and his administrative officer at the time, Kenneth K. Lott, have stated that they had no memory of Bush ever reporting. Seven months later, at Ellington Air Force Base in Texas, Bush's two superior officers were unable to complete his annual evaluation covering the year from May 1, 1972 to April 30, 1973 because, "Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of this report." Both superior officers, who are now dead, and also Ellington's top personnel officer at the time, mistakenly concluded that Bush served his final year of service in Alabama. Bush returned to live in Texas after the senatorial election in November, 1972, so this is obviously not true. According to the records available from the National Guard, the period between May 1972 and May 1973 remains unaccounted for. George W. Bush himself has refused to answer questions about this period in his life, other than to state that he fulfilled all of his National Guard commitments. If this were true, why is there no record of him fulfilling these commitments at either of his posts in Texas or Alabama? Why is there not one commanding officer that can come forward and state unequivocally that Bush reported for duty? If the allegations are true that Bush deserted his country during a time of war, this is one of the gravest offenses one can commit against their country, short of treason. This is why there is no Statute of Limitations concerning these crimes. My father served proudly as a field surgeon in Vietnam, and it distresses me greatly that a person could use his family's influence and power to not only avoid the draft for service, but then to not fulfill the duties that he was assigned in substitute for serving in Vietnam. These crimes are not to be taken lightly, and I believe that all men and women who serve America proudly would be shocked that a soldier was allowed to abuse the system in the way that George W. Bush allegedly has. These charges warrant investigation, and until a satisfactory record of Bush's service is produced, I can only assume that Bush did indeed desert his country in a time of war. I implore you to investigate these charges. In this time of war and talk of preemptive strikes against other countries, it would serve the American people greatly to know that our Commander in Chief did not run away from duty during Vietnam. If this man is to send other's husbands, wives, and children to die in a foreign land, we must make sure that he fulfilled his obligations and commitments to America before he demands that others do the same. Sincerely, XXXXXXXXX

Webelos, Webelos, Webelos (NOT Webelo!!) Sorry, that is one of my pet peeves. One thing I did in my den was let the boys come to me when they felt they were ready for a uniform inspection. I had a uniform inspection sheet but I let the other boys "grade" the Cub Scout under inspection. The graders were much harder than I would have been. Patch placement, awards, hat, scarf (okay, neckerchief), slide, belt, etc. were all reviewed. At the Cub level I let the pants (if blue) and socks slide. Letting the boys do the grading taught them, or reinforced, their knowledge of proper uniforming. If a passing grade was given, I awarded the boy a PASSED Uniform inspection patch for their brag vest ($1.00/ea). It was a good inducement for them to make sure mon (or dad) put the patches in the proper place!! At last weeks CAN-DO food drive (Scouting for Food), my Troop manned the trailer. I was working with a Tiger den helping them to pack boxes. The boys were very impressed with my interaction with them (I love the enthusiasm the Tigers have and always try to get them involved) and they asked if I was an Eagle Scout (I am not). I took the opportunity to point out a few of the things on my uniform (Scoutmaster with a few training award knots). I described what the various knots were and how the varying colors (blue & gold for den leader, gold for Webelos den leader, red white & blue for Eagle, red & green for AOL etc.) signified the different awards. They were all psyched up when I told them that they would have the opportunity to earn the AOL and wear that on their Boy Scout uniform as a youth and as a "knot" as an adult. They were very attentive and very interested in the uniform. To keep their interest, it is all in how you present it to them. Even the first graders can be taught to take pride in their uniform.

The "religious award" is NOT a BSA award. It is awarded by various religious denominations. Therefore, if you do not go through a particular denomination, you don't earn one. No tickee, no laundry. Adults as well can earn the award (with different requirements, most have age based requirements).

eisley, John 15:13 "Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends." Or as sometimes is written: Greater love hath no man, than He lay down His life for His friends. As can be seen by the capitialization, it is a remark about Jesus.

I'm with you 100% Ed. This past week, my son (12 year old Star Scout) was given an assignment to write a letter to an anonymous veteran at a VA hospital. Reading it brought tears to my eyes. He wrote it with the honesty and sincerity that only a child seems to have these days. He mentioned that he was a Boy Scout and marches in the Memorial Day parade every year. Sometimes your kids surprise you and do something to make you proud! Wishing all the veterans out there a wonderful day and my deepest thanks!

CubsRgr8, You are correct, Mr. Lambert did not follow the Religious Principle stated on the BSA application and therefore membership should be denied according to the "rules." However, just because someone doesn't like that rule does not make one a defender of Mr. Lambert. Look at part of the Scout Oath "Obedient"; look at how the BSA defines that. In a nutshell, follow the rules but if you do not like the rule, work within the system to get it changed. THAT IS SCOUT LIKE!!! Again, I'll repeat an earlier post: To keep myself physically strong ... How many Scouts and Scouters have been booted out of BSA because they did not "eat nutritious foods, get enough sleep, exercise regularly, avoid harmful drugs (including alcohol & tobacco) and anything else that can harm your health." If the BSA revoked the membership of every over weight SM, every smoker, etc. membership would decrease tremendously. Am I not trustworthy because I say the Scout Oath and am guilty of not getting enough sleep on camping trips? Who determines what part of the Scout Oath the BSA wants to enforce and what parts they do not? If you want to breed disrespect for the law, use selected enforcement or make bad laws.

Weekender, Your comment, "If there is no God my actions don't matter." is what bothers many individuals, including me. Only a child, and a young one at that, patterns his/her behavior because of a perceived threat or reward (spanking, time-out, hell, heaven, candy, etc.). Are you lumping people with faith into that category? I do not. I will admit, like many free thinking adults, I have questioned the existance of God in my life. Did that change my behavior toward my fellow man? No, not at all. My actions matter a great deal, regardless of an existance of God or not. To say otherwise is insulting.

kwc57, Generally, individuals get very defensive when they are unsure of themselves. If one is confident of their position, a question about it is usually not perceived as a threat.

Hmmm ... God does not make anyone homosexual. Does God make anyone heterosexual? If not, that pretty much says that God does not make anyone. Therefore, if God does not make anyone, maybe that "evolution thing" has a grain of truth to it. Wait, Rooster and others have told me that it doesn't. Hmmm... Now if God doesn't kill anyone in natural disasters, can I sue the insurance companies for labeling such acts as an "act of God"? Hmmm ... Now since to sin is a choice, was it made by me or by Adam and Eve. Hmmm ... The concept of "original sin", let's see, Catholics like to baptize as soon after birth as possible to "cleanse" a newborn of original sin. But wait, Baptists (shouldn't they be the experts on baptism, hence the name?) like to wait until the person has the "sense" to make a decision to join the church (more of an initiation). Hmmm ... You would think with a God owners manual (Bible) this would all be so much less confusing. I'm so glad there are people like Rooster and rlculver and Ed Mori who have all the answers.

To keep myself physically strong ... How many Scouts and Scouters have been booted out of BSA because they did not "eat nutritious foods, get enough sleep, exercise regularly, avoid harmful drugs (including alcohol & tobacco) and anything else that can harm your health." If the BSA revoked the membership of every over weight SM, every smoker, etc. membership would decrease tremendously. Am I not trustworthy because I say the Scout Oath and am guilty of not getting enough sleep on camping trips? Who determines what part of the Scout Oath the BSA wants to enforce and what parts they do not? (This message has been edited by acco40)

What I really want to know is if the sheep (homosexual Rams that is) professed a belief in God?

I carry no knife except when camping and usually not on my person. I've got a selection of Trails End popcorn prize knives to choose from. By the way, in my neighborhood: Zero-Tolerance Watch "Supporters have established a fund to help pay expenses for an Eagle Scout candidate who was expelled for bringing a knife on school grounds," the Associated Press reports from Michigan. William Lomaka, a senior at Rochester High School, "denied knowing the 3 1/2-inch knife was in his Jeep Wrangler. School board members who expelled Lomaka on Oct. 7 they had no choice because state law mandates expulsion for students who bring weapons to school." FYI, expulsion is from public schools in the state, not just the one he was currently attending. Don't you just love mandatory sentencing? Heaven forbid we let human reason into the equation. P.S. The Scout's name has already been identified by public sources. (This message has been edited by acco40)

Scouting is like McDonald's or Burger King. The BSA essentially franchises scouting units to chartering organizations. As long as they follow the BSA "franchise rules" they COs are allowed to run the unit (Troop, Pack, Crew) as they see fit.(This message has been edited by acco40)

The phrase "on paper, BSA does treat women equally. However in the real world BSA does NOT." perplexes me. The BSA is really just paper. The Scouters and Scouts that are members of BSA may or may not treat women equally. As proof, the BSA has no self awareness that you are a male or female, only your fellow members do (at least most of them!). I'd like to see a thesis (not for Commissioners College, but an traditional academic thesis) on African-Americans view of the BSA. I bet we would find out some interesting things.

Living in Michigan with a close proximity to Canada has allowed me to come into contact with various adults and youth involved in Scouts Canada (NOT BSA). Scouts Canada is 100% co-ed through Beavers (5 -7) Cubs, (8-10), Scouts (11-14) and on up. They seem to be doing nicely but I would get the perspective of some of their youth and adults for your thesis. They "do it." We as Americans speculate about it. They do have difficulties finding female leadership for all of their activities (female adult leadership is required for female youth to attend). They can give you feedback on the real pros and cons as opposed to speculation. For Bob White, I know what the current BSA policy is but where do you get your information about "the BSA has made it very clear that except for the coed Venturing program the Boy Scout and Cub Scout program will remain for male youth members only." I'm not trying to challenge you or disagree with you, but I'm not aware of any "future" policy statements (except that many of the Cub Scout handbooks, Tiger, Wolf, Bear and Webelos will get new editions in August?) that the BSA puts out. Besides, Wood Badge training tries to get the leadership to embrace change, not be rigid (that was a joke by the way).

Merlyn, Your comment, "Then why do you belong to an organization that does?" (i.e. hate atheists) needs a rebuttal. The BSA, or any organization for that matter, does not have the capacity to love or hate. Only the members of that organization do. I have found that the Scouting program is a great asset to many. To me there is a slight difference between requiring a belief in God and discrimination against Jews, Blacks, etc. Being Black or Jewish (if you consider it a race) etc. is an innate quality of an individual. I believe homosexuality is another innate quality of an individual and am sorry that the BSA heirarchy believes that they should not be allowed to become leaders. However, I will be obedient (part of the Scout law) and obey that "law" and as stated in the Boy Scout Law "If he thinks these rules and laws are unfair, he tries to have them changed in an orderly manner rather than disobeying them." and work to get it changed. Having a belief is not an innate quality. Measuring a belief is difficult. The BSA requirement gives one a great deal of latitude with respect to religion. For example, my Webelos Cub Scouts can meditate daily and do a service project for someone and discuss it for their "religious" requirement to obtain their Webelos Badge. I for one, do not feel that character, morals, etc. are mutually exclusive with agnostics or atheists. However, I am not about to throw out the baby (scouting) with the bath water (religious bigots) because some BSA yahoo makes idiotic statements about wallets. I also do not have a bunker mentality and believe you are out to destroy scouting (maybe I am naive). The US Army practiced discrimination for a long time but look at it now. It is probably the best organization in the country with respect to equal opportunity and equality with respect to race. I believe scouting will change. I know scouting will change. The only question is how much and when. I suggest you put your tireless energies into improving scouting and not trying to tear it down. I would not tolerate any adult leader or youth in my den or troop who was intolerant to atheists. (I like that, I would not tolerate intolerance! What does that say about me!) Take a look at a Boy Scouts of America adult application. Nowhere does it ask about your religious affilitation, your belief (if any) in God, etc. We are a very diverse group from many backgrounds. Look at our debates about denominational prayer! We don't all think alike for goodness sakes. Take the Philmont grace, "For food, for raiment, for life, for opportunity, for friendship & fellowship, we thank, Thee, O Lord." Can an atheist give thanks, you betcha! Who do they give thanks to? Whomever or whatever they wish. (This message has been edited by acco40)

Bob White, I know what the SM Handbook says, and I agree with your interpretation. The SM is the one who is assumed to keep the resource - the MB counselor list. The Scout does not have this resource. Therefore, the Scout obtains the information from the SM so that he (the SCOUT) can choose his MB counselor. My resources are not with me right now, but doesn't the Committee Guide Book or other resource say that the Troop Advancement Chair keep the MB Counselor list? Therefore, shouldn't the BSA literature be updated to say "Obtain from the Scoutmaster a signed merit badge application and the FROM THE ADVANCEMENT CHAIR, the name of a qualified counselor for that merit badge." As a SM, any task I can off-load to another is welcomed! (I typed this only half jokingly.)

Courage? I was not aware that that was one of the twelve points of the Scout Law. Maybe he meant brave? I'll say one thing, from some of the many posts I've read on this I don't think Courteous is at the top of their list. I would tend to put Friendly near the top. A Scout is Friendly. A Scout is a friend to all. He is a brother to other Scouts. He offers his friendship to people of all races and nations, and respects them even if their beliefs and customs are different from his own. If a Scout is friendly, cheerful, kind, courteous, and helpful all come into play.

Is the gentleman a former Cub Scout or Boy Scout? That is not required but it helps. Is anyone else interested in the position? I found that a Tiger parent (or Wolf) who volunteers for Pack leadership is great because you get a few years of milage out of them! If he has an interest and is willing to get trained, go for it! Just remember, the leader of the Pack is the Committee Chair, not the Cubmaster. If either the CC or CM seem to balk at this, find other resources. Best of luck!(This message has been edited by acco40)