acco40

RobK, My point exactly. The Scout Oath and Law are not self defining. Also, the BSA professes to be non-denominational. So what constitutes "morally straight?" In my beliefs, being homosexual alone is not immoral. (I prefer to define morality by actions, not thought). Being brought up in America, I also have this nasty belief that the burden of proof is on the prosecution side, not the defense. Did Jimmy Carter, a former SM, violate the "morally straight" tenet by "lusting in his heart.?" Ah, what great things to ponder.

News reporting has gone by the wayside. It has been taken over by both liberal and conservative (note the absence of the term right-wing) "talking heads." It used to be that the news was something the networks and local stations put up with and used to add "respectability" to themselves. Now, they are simply vehicles for entertainment like any other show. Worse, now the news (on your side) media are making themselves part of the news (investigative reporting on "nudity on the golf course" which just so happens around the May sweeps period) and other such nonsense.

From your previous post (which I did not see when typing mine) I see we were on the same "brain wave." Scary.

For those that believe that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the tradtional values espoused in the Scout Oath and Law, please enlighten me why you feel this way. Please don't use biblical quotes or references, those are not in the Scout Oath or Law. Please don't quote the term "morally straight", the term straight is not in reference to heterosexual conduct. Morals are subjective and have to have a reference. For example, many Muslims (who are allowed to join the Boy Scouts of America) do not believe in lending or borrowing money. It is against thier religious beliefs, i.e. immoral. Does that make FOS campaigns immoral to them or just charitable giving? I don't know, but I believe they can be excellent scouters.

TJ, Scout on. It sounds to me that your "lifestyle" is Scouting. For those that profess the "start your own organization" approach, see: ------------------------------ Irving, Texas-The National Executive Board of the Boy Scouts of America has reaffirmed its traditional leadership standards, as recommended by its appropriate committees. The board received three resolutions suggesting changes in leadership standards in order to permit avowed homosexuals to serve as Boy Scout leaders. The board referred the resolutions to the appropriate committee, which formed a diverse task force composed of chartered organization representatives to consider the resolutions. The BSA reaffirmed its view that an avowed homosexual cannot serve as a role model for the traditional moral values espoused in the Scout Oath and Law and that these values cannot be subject to local option choices. In affirming its existing standards of leadership, the board also agreed that duty to God is not a mere ideal for those choosing to associate with the Boy Scouts of America; it is an obligation, which has defined good character throughout the BSA's 92-year history. The board, the relationships committee, and the special task force are all comprised of volunteer members of the BSA. The BSA is one of the largest youth-serving organizations in America, serving more than 5 million young people between 7 and 20 years of age. --------------------- This shows that the BSA reviewed their policy. They will continue to review it, it my opinion, and will one day come to the conclusion that an avowed homosexual may serve as a role model for traditional moral values as espoused in the Scout Oath and Law (not Bible, Koran, Talmud, etc.). Until that day comes, do not become "avowed" to the youth you serve and as protection for yourself, always strictly obey all YPP guidelines. Good luck.

As opposed to some sort of national "publicity event" i.e. march, gathering, parade, etc. this is a wonderful idea. I think I will follow up on it in my area. Again, great idea.

A SM may, as KoreaScouter has eloquently stated, assign leadership projects/positions. However, regardless how trivial a SM feels a troop scribe postion is, the rules dictate that it is a leadership position. In regards to "taking" a leadership position as k9-goldscout suggest; leadership positions are are either appointed (by SM) or elected (by youth) and not "taken."

I support our armed forces. However, you would be treading on thin political ice if the BSA should organize a rally. It could easily be interpreted as supporting using military force against (insert despot here) which may not be 100% endorsed by BSA membership. I for one, do not think that the BSA should be involved in this type of event. The BSA does support/promote citizenship and patriotism but that is defined in many different ways by many different people. Some feel that anti-war protests are patriotic. Some feel that anti-abortion protests are patriotic. My take, don't go there.

I present rank, arrow points, activity pins, belt loops, activity badges, etc. at the Pack meetings. I have the whole den come up at once and stand in a row facing the crowd. I stand behind the boys and read what each boy has earned and shake their hand. My asst. den leader, she actually has the awards and passes them out to the boys. I do this for a couple of reasons. Bringing up each boy individually takes time and bores the audience. Nobody want to see me fumbling around through a paper bag or a bunch of baggies looking for awards. With a medium to large Pack (40 boys or above) giving out individual awards should be QUICK and not take up more than a quarter of the meeting at best (15 minutes, so no more than about 30 sec./scout). When I give out awards that we may have worked on as a den (all attended a Readyman session at the fire station, worked on Readyman all month for example) I may give a brief synopsis of the den activities to the Pack. Remember, there are a bunch of Tiger scouts in the audience and they get restless very easily! Pack meetings should be a time that the dens supply entertainment and fun to the pack. Not a time to bring in outside entertainment only, not a time to lecture, not a time to sit through endless award ceremonies.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Who sets the "proper" time to get up or go to sleep/lights out? It should not be the adults (for a Troop). I took my Webelos Cub Scouts to summer camp along with my two den chiefs in August. Same place, same breakfast time (mess hall, no cooks required but we did have a set time to eat) that the Troop of the den chiefs had summer camp in June. At summer camp, the SM made a big deal of getting everyone up (i.e. no personal responsibility). At Webelos camp, I let the den chiefs sleep as long as they wanted to. One morning, I told them that we (three adult leaders, four Webelos Scouts) were leaving for breakfast in five minutes. They slept. We returned after eating and cleaning up about an hour and a half later. They were still asleep. I then told my Webelos Scouts (who adore playing tricks on the den chiefs) to tell them to "hurry up so they would not miss breakfast." They stumbled out of their tent at 9:30 AM and missed breakfast. Growing boys need sleep. My view, no harm, no foul. Sometimes I prefer sleep to breakfast.(This message has been edited by acco40)

"For those of you able to learn from others experiences... This serves as a reminder, keep those little cards that merit and rank badges are attached to in a safe place." It is my understanding that I can go down to my local council and purchase "those little cards that merit and rank badges are attached to" by the hundreds. Although better than nothing, they do not serve as good records. Merit badge "blue cards", which are not used by all councils, are what is needed to be kept. Also, TroopMaster print-outs are considered legit. Good luck in your search.

To be blunt, I would prefer that the public servants that I support with my tax dollars would not spend their time praying while "on the job." I work in the defense industry for a private company. We need to have an approved charge number for every task we work on. To my knowledge, none has ever existed for praying on company time. I never understood the need some feel to verbalize prayer or pray en mass.

The BSA has tried very hard to distance itself from both the military and hunting. There is no need for camouflage in the eyes of the BSA. Mike Walton, the "Black Eagle", and an Army officer, has a wonderful tale about a scouter who is refused admission to a camp-o-ree because he is wearing camo pants. That said, I bought a pair of insulated boots last weekend for the express purpose of winter camping with my troop. They came in "mossy oak break-up" (a registered trademark, but "camo" to me) only. Should they be banned from scouting. I hope not and don't think so. However, scouting does not want a para-military look.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Rooster, You've made statements about homosexuality not being "natural." The food industry uses the term, i.e. Natrual Lite Beer, naturally grown, etc. The FDA has not given the term any meaning. In the FDAs eyes, it is a meaningless term. My question is what do you mean by the term? Does homosexuality occur in nature? While we have trouble figuring out the longings of animals, yes same sex copulation does occur in nature. To me this makes it "natural." However, in my view, it has no bearing on if it is right or wrong.

One of the beauties of our country is freedom from the tyranny of the majority. Yes individuals should be free to practice their own religious beliefs (to an extent) but for the Government to promote religion (generically or a particular religion) is wrong in my view. To many, One nation, under God - does promote religion. Therefore to them, it should not be recited, en mass, in public schools, U.S. senate, public office inaugurations, etc. I would like to see our public schools not teach religion, but teach about religions. For example, compare different beliefs, explain why some beliefs came into existance, histories, etc. Primarily at the high school level. Because, your own religious beliefs be damned, religion is a part of our society and students should be aware of it.(This message has been edited by acco40)

I have no problem what so ever when someone wants to add to (not replace) the methods of scouting. I have a problem when someone wants to change the aims of scouting. I don't know much about Yu-Gi-O (sp?) cards, although my two boys play them constantly, but do they foster the scouting ideals, patrols, outdoors, advancement, personal growth, adult association, leadership develpment, or uniform? It all depends in what context. The same could be applied to knot tying. What ideals do tying knots promote? Heck, you could say playing a game with his fellow scouts teaches friendly, courteous, kind, and cheerful behavior. I do know that some of the games teach mentally awake (even blackjack which my 2nd grade daughter discovered, without the betting. A great way to teach arithmetic and when she plays with me, adult association.). So yes the games could be said to teach the scouting ideals. However, they could also teach social isolation if done to excess, win at all costs depending on the emphasis on winning, etc. As with most everything the devil is in the details. Outright bans always scare me and seem rigid.

I've been in numerous Christmas and Memorial Day parades with Cub Scouts. For a parade route that is one mile or less, we have had first and second year Webelos Cub Scouts carry the flag (full size) no problem. Getting the boys to "march" or actually be in formation is tough. Make it fun for them. A problem I see again and again is parents who want to march with their boys. The Cub Scouts are in the center in a block formation and the parents walk along both sides encouraging their sons AND BLOCKING THE VIEWv of the boys for the crowd! Nobody wants to see the parents, expecially if they are not fully uniformed.

This is a common feeling from parents of Cub Scouters. Cub Scouts always ran from September to Augut (hopefully) or from September to June at least. Now, in the last year you are telling me it ends in mid-February? Why my son will miss the pinewood derby. The other boys crossover in June. Why? Why?? Why??? From a pure cub perspective, good question. From a Boy Scout perspective, as previously stated, the boys need time to accclimate themselves to the troop and camping by the time summer camp (a full week of camping!) rolls around. Many can't handle it with a February crossover, some can handle it with a crossover only a few weeks before. Up here in Michigan, the peril with a February crossover is that the new boy Scout may experience a very cold first camping trip in March (or sometimes late February). The first trip leaves a lasting impression. That is why we try to tent camp in January (brrr!) but cabin camp in March. We want the new boys to get a good first impression of Boy Scouts. To the parents of boys who are not continuing into Boy Scouts, the ending of Webelos II in February/March can seem dumb. Explain the purpose of AOL (prepare for Boy Scouts) and maybe with proper communication the reasons will sink in. Good luck. (This message has been edited by acco40)

Senseless shooting, "gun went off accidently", black 18 yr old with history of trouble (aggravated criminal sexual assault, disorderly conduct {twice}, involuntarily committed for psychiatric evaluation, hisory of mental problems, on medication), arrest warrant issued day of shooting (for shoving a security officer at school), stolen gun, kicked off football team, ... I'm sorry but I read about such senseless acts almost daily. In my neighborhood, a jewelry store owner had his mother, three young kids and himself all shot in the back of the head by a robber in the home just last week. Last year a 16 yr. old pizza store employee was shot in the back of the head for a few bucks. Babies placed in the trash dumpster, and on and on. Last night, a 51 year old man froze to death in the suburbs. He was wrapped in plastic sheeting in 15 degree weather. Before we receive more condemnations for talking about political issues as opposed to sending out our "get well wishes" to this unfortunate man, remember that many become numb to this type of news because if they did not, they would go crazy. That being said, I wish for nothing more than the best recovery possible for Mr. Lahoff. I cannot begin to fathom the emotional trauma that he is going through right now, not to mention the physical. Please let him know that so many more are praying and thinking about him all across the scouting community and the world at large. (This message has been edited by acco40)

Regardless of the facts (as is so often the case) the Supreme Court of the USA has deemed the BSA to be a private organization and as such, can set exclusionary membership requirements. Public universities are funded by taxpayers, fees, private donations, corporate donations, etc. As public institutions, they need to follow certain laws. Can a man join the Volleyball team at State U? In most cases no. Can a woman join the football team at State U? In most cases yes, but not many would become defensive tackles. I don't believe that organizations (clubs, to put it loosely) that de facto exclude certain students (from membership or leadership) should receive monetary support from public institutions. Should an elementary school allow a cub scout den to use a classroom after hours? Some do, some don't and the law profession if profitting from this dilema. My opinion, Universities should tolerate many different and diverse thoughts. Certain actions, they should have a slightly more discriminitory attitude. Closing membership and or leadership to select students should not be encouraged.

Lo and behold, I'm planning to hold troop JLT training in March at a campout (cabin). None of the boys have had it yet. When March roles around, we will have about 7 boys who have been in the troop right at 2 years, 7 right at one year and possibly 2 - 6 brand new scouts who just crossed over from Webelos. My intention is to conduct JLT (my first time) for all of the boys except for the brand new just crossed over scouts. My feeling is that even though all of the boys are not on (in?) the PLC, they need to know the duties, responsibilities, etc. involved and could quite possibly become a PLC memeber inthe immediate future (elections are in April). Comments?

I wear my uniform (as a SM) to all PLC meetings. The SAs and boys usually do not. I don't make abig deal out of it. I wear my uniform ALWAYS when acting as a Unit Commissioner. I rarely wear my uniform at Scoutmaster meetings (no youths present, not held during troop meetings). I always wear my uniform at roundtable. One of my pet peeves is not the issue of wearing or not wearing the uniform but when wearing the uniform, WEAR IT CORRECTLY. I found this on the Iternet and found it iteresting concerning uniforms (from Barry Runnels): There are some clear signs of when adults are over-involved in running the troop. {one of the signs =>} All scouts are dressed perfectly. While I am sure there are some good boy run Troops with all the scouts in perfect uniform, I have not met one yet. I am using the uniform as an example here, but it can be anything where adults force the scouts to conform as a group when the scouts don't understand. From the adults perspective, a boy run program is where each scout is guided individually, not as a group. What we adults need to understand is that every boy growing up questions the logic of many things that don't make sense to him, especially at this age. A scout may rebel against the norm to force some kind of response because they he doesn't know any other way. Adults in boy run programs should not force a scout back to the norm, but instead guide his understanding of the situation so that he voluntarily changes. Usually when we understand a logical purpose for anything, we voluntarily conform to it. If the reason for the situation is not logical, then maybe it's time for the adults to consider change. I have always challenged my PLCs that if I can't identify how a part of our program helps build better habits and character, I will throw it out. Only pride could get in the way of making changes. It's the scouts program, they should be allowed to ask questions. The troop should be a safe place to do that.

Please explain what you mean by "manage the checkbook." Can committee members (treasurer, committee chair) write checks? The charter organization has been granted a "franchise" by the BSA to have a troop. It is their troop. It owns all monies, equipment, troop number and all. My experience is that most COs are not involved enough in the troops/packs. Is the COR a memeber of your committee? If not, that would be a good suggestion, have them join and attend. Good luck.

Good answers all, although I would hesitate for a scout to contact his SPL and or ASPL unless absolutely necessary. He should follow the chain of comand so to speak and approach his Patrol Leader almost exclusively.

I sleep in cotton undies and polypropelene longjohns (if needed) in the dead of winter in Michigan. The cotton is okay if it is clean (i.e. bone dry). I don't like the tremendous "static cling" of polypropelene wear it only if necessary. The earlier comment (page 1) that air is a bad insulator is false. Air is an excellent insulator.