acco40

Go ask a five year old. These people are allowed to do this. These people are not. Is that fair? So, anti-gay marriage is not anti-gay? That must be something that is being spread by talk radio heads somewhere. Mr. Boyce - so, women past child bearing age should not be allowed to be married? Neither should infertile men or women? Yes, marriage is a social structure and thus, by definition society should define what the accepted structure is about. We have age limits, "who" limits (I can't marry my mom for instance) and in most states gender limits. I don't think I should be able to marry a 12 year old girl, my sister, my cat nor the foxy married lady next door. As for gay marriage? I'm actually somewhat conflicted about that. I have no issue with "civil unions" - i.e. treating a gay couple as a business enterprise wrt insurance, health decisions, etc. We, the USA, also have sort of a "local option" on marriage - in the Catholic Church (some exceptions do exist) priests may not be married but that is not an issue with the state.

Bando - you acted "uppity" by not knowing your place and daring to rock the boat! Seriously, this reminds me of my senior year in high school. I graduated in early June of 1974 (he resigned in mid-August that year) and it seemed that the seniors (I feel 18 year old were much more politically active back then than they are now due to civil rights, draft/Viet Nam, generational differences, etc.) were split and quite vocal in defense or disgust with former president Nixon. Was discussing such an issue appropriate for a graduation ceremony? Again, many were split on the issue. My take was that we, the student body, elected who should speak at our ceremony (my graduation class was approx. 1,600 kids and we graduated on three different night with more than 500 students at each ceremony - does student overcrowding ring a bell to any other baby boomers?) and we knew by virtue of who we elected what type of speech they would probably give. As for myself, if you stated your opinion in the spirit having a passion for the program and the desire to see the gates opened up for more youth - great. As with any opinion, the are considerate ways and boorish ways of stating them.

Which is what? Yes they are troop events. Read BSA publication 33588 and it will state that the Eagle Scout and his parents should be involved in planning the event.

I don't fly any flags at my residence. However, when dealing with a flag, I try to do so from an educated and respectful position. If folks want to fly a flag, why don't they want to do it correctly? Sort of like scouting, if you make the effort and commitment to join, why not follow the rules & guidelines? By the way folks, the U.S. Flag Code is a federal law. Because there are no legal penalties does not mean one may ignore the law. A key bit of trivia - Scouts and Scouters do not wear a flag on our uniform (that is prohibited by the U.S Flag Code). We wear a flag patch, as do soldiers, that is not considered a flag.

One of the things they do, that I applaud, is to send the girls to summer camp without helicoptering mothers and fathers. My daughter went off to summer camp - staffed primarily by college aged girls/women who were trained staffers. The girls of that age (9/10) adjusted better than most of the 10/11 year old boys going away for their first summer camp without mommy or daddy. I don't get this animosity against the GSA.(This message has been edited by acco40)

When I was an active Scoutmaster, I worked with the Eagle Scout and his family to create an ECOH that they wanted. I gave them examples, ideas and sometimes my opinion but I for one applaud Bando for expressing an opinion at his ECOH that showed his love and appreciation for the organization. If he could care less about the BSA, why would he talk about its membership policy. Now, it he turned it into a political rally for a candidate or a sales pitch for something he was selling, I'd highly suggest he remove that from his ECOH.

Beavah is correct and IMO, the congressional charter is important (and part of what I feel makes the BSA a public organization in my eyes, but not in the eyes of the US legal system. Also, the Church of Latter Day Saints (LDS or "Mormon" to some) does not have their own youth program but has stated that Scouting is the youth program of their church. That is a big difference.

Just as long as they don't allow the Dutch, I'm fine with it. Say hello to queen Liz for me!

The boys (and adults) know what they are supposed to do. It is doing it that is difficult. I think at this age (11-17), issues the boys can relate to is to stick up for what you believe and don't worry so much about what your friends think (i.e. peer pressure). As adults, we sometimes forget how difficult this can be for 14-16 year olds.

Cambridgeskip - just my observation from the DIBC alone.

When I was a Scoutmaster, yeah I realized we were not formally a patrol but I had us (adults) camp away from the youth, eat meals on our own, etc. So we sort of functioned like a patrol and I found that if I told some of the lesser informed adults they we apart of our patrol, their helicopter ways would ease. I even had the adults "earn" a patrol patch. I had a shirt I wore to troop only outings that had a patrol patch. I had many other shirts that had no patrol patch that I wore to jambos, roundtables, camporees, COH, etc. We used that opportunity to model ideal patrol behavior. Our meals were the envy of some of the boys - it fostered ideas and led them to expand their culinary choices. Also, we invited the SPL and ASPL to eat with us most of the time. It got them away from the patrols and the possibility of overshadowing a patrol leader. It also gave me some one-on-one time (no, not real G2SS violation one-on-one) with the SPL to review the outing, plans, etc. in a relaxed atmosphere.

DeanRx - I've attended the Dorchester International Brotherhood Camporee in London, Ontario (Canada for those geographically challenged) quite a few times. Scouts Canada is fully co-ed. I had lengthy talks with the Scout leaders of Scouts Canada about the pros & cons most were somewhat ambivalent about it. The biggest negative was the need to have female adults on outings - not that having them was a bad idea, getting them was problematic. I know the membership at the Boy Scout level was about 55% female, 45% female from the attendance by my guess Scouts Canada is for youth 5 -26, Beavers (5-7), Cubs (8-10), Scouts (11-14/16), Venturer (14-17), Rover (18-26). At the DIBC, most were Scouts & Venturers about 13-17 years in age. Believe me, the female Scouts in the presence of my troop made a huge difference (positive) in the behavior of the older Scouts (15 and above). For the younger boys, it was of no impact at all.

A green "red jac shirt." Why am I thinking of the newspaper joke?

Yeah, I was somewhat surprised that one of the Scouts in our troop was also a member of "Polish Scouts" and another "Ukranian Scouts" right hear in southeast Michigan. I wasn't aware of these ethnic based programs. BTW, I thought it was funny when the brothers who were a part of Polish Scouts told me they like "my" troop much better. Seems that some of these ethnic based programs teach a little history and culture about their ethnicity that most boys of scouting age don't readily accept as "fun." Some of the posters on here remind me of one of my favorite quotes from Austin Powers (Nigel Powers):There's only two things I hate in this world. People who are intolerant of other people's cultures and the Dutch.

Listen carefully everyone, the BSA does not exclude leaders or scouts due to sexual orientation. They do exclude leaders and scouts for homosexual conduct - however, conduct doesn't get defined in detail. Only by observing this "conduct" does one now become "known" or "avowed" as a homosexual. I'm not trying to justify their position (I think it is ridiculous myself), just explain the nuances of their position.

To use BSA vernacular, one wears the appropriate shoulder loops (or tabs) on the epaulettes of the shirt to denote program level.

Not sure if this is from Mark Twain, Will Rogers or Groucho Marx but your comment reminds me of I would not join any club that would have someone like me for a member.

No, it is still true if one is uneducated. Not being aware does not make it false.

Let's say I'm running the BSA "business" as the CEO. I see tons of kids join Cub Scouts and drop out by the time the boys become Boy Scout eligible from an age perspective. Hmmm. How can I fix this. instead of a couple of month Webelos program to transition to Boy Scouts I'll drop the last Cub Scout rank (Lion) and make the final 15 months a full transition type program to Boy Scouts - Webelos. Well that worked for a few years but I'm still losing the older boys. The youngsters still are eager to join however, I know, I'll shift the Cub Scout program down in age by creating the Tiger Program and lowering the age requirement for joining the Boy Scouts. Okay that helped somewhat. Now, I'll integrate the Tiger Program into the Cub Scout program and make it no longer a Pack auxiliary type program but fully integrated with Tiger just a different rank. Okay, I'm still losing some boys so I'll slowly make it one seamless program and start by initiating a singular Oath. When will they come to the realization that if they want to keep 15-17 year old boys interested into the program they need to make their program seem more prestigious, not add in 10 and 11 year olds into the mix.

The fact that the Boys Scouts has an award, the Dr. Sally Ride Supernova Award, that honors a celebrated astronaut and scientist who happens to be a lesbian does not surprise me. Given the fact the the scouting program was founded by a man who enjoyed watching young men swim naked, expressed disdain for seeing female nudity, admitted that he could not judge a woman's physical beauty and shared accommodations with a younger man for over 40 years, I'm not shocked. Looking back on a life of over eighty years, I realize how short life is and how little worth while are anger and political warfare. - Baden-Powell.

Epaulettes are and have always been the same color as the shirt in the BSA - tan/khaki being the current color for Boy Scouts.

Scouting is "the" youth program of the LDS church. The BSA also has allowed the LDS church to modify the program to suit their needs (i.e. age limits, etc.) Scouts Canada adopted a national program of coeducational Scouting, but allowed organizations that have a religious or traditional history of all-male Scout groups, such as the LDS church to maintain that status. So no female scout leaders in LDS packs or troops. Assuming the BSA would remain treating the LDS units the same, my guess is that membership would remain constant with the LDS units and the BSA would gain about as many folks who endorse the change as they would lose who would not endorse the change. Bottom line, I don't think enrollment would change appreciably either way.

Basementdweller - you don't get it. Some of us feel that we are a part of the BSA as much as others and we act in a Scout like manner - when we see injustice we try to remedy the situation. Walking away is not a solution in our eyes. I will not call being homosexual a human failing like you do, because it is not. However, because of the nature of the issue, it cannot be tolerated in the Scouting atmosphere. I don't understand the above. Why can't it be tolerated in a Scouting atmosphere. I can "be" heterosexual in a Scouting environment, but no, I should not be fornicating with the opposite sex in a Scouting atmosphere. Same goes for homosexuals.

How? In a (pre-1980) Scout like manner.

It is not appropriate for Scouters to encourage homosexual Scouters to live chastely, and considering the staggering number of CO's that would consider it immoral to advise any other way of life than chastity for homosexuals, it is impossible for Scouting to embrace Gay Pride, or the acceptance of committed or promiscuous homosexuality as an acceptable lifestyle. - Agree! Conversely, It is not appropriate for Scouts to encourage heterosexual Scouters to live unchastely (or chastely for that matter), and considering the staggering number of CO's that would consider it immoral to advise any other way of life than chastity for heterosexuals before marriage or divorce, it is impossible for Scouting to embrace Scouts or Scouters born out of wedlock or from "broken" homes as an acceptable lifestyle. I too, can play that game.