acco40

Then Barry, why doesn't the BSA follow the Scout Law and Oath and state the reason we have this policy is because we don't want to risk a membership decline? Yeah, that doesn't sound very good. How about - the reason we have this policy is because the vast majority of our charter organization members believe this.

So, FrankScout, suppose you are a gay Scout leader who loves Scouting and has been a member in the BSA since the late 70s (before their was a known "gay policy). You don't agree with the current policy on the issue. What is one to do? Grin an bear it? Quietly resign? Send a letter to national? What would you do in that situation?

I think it boils down to when one sees a person who needs help do you think of yourself first or the other person?

Check out the Camping& High Adventure/Backpacking and Sharing the load thread. When we went backpacking with no clean water source in New Mexico, this is what we did. We had three adults and six youth. We carried two steripens and three water filters (micron pumps). Earlier dry run trips we used a miox water purification and different types of filters as well as tablets. As adults, we took the lead wrt water purification methods because we were aware of our water source in New Mexico - stagnant pools in open galvanized tubs, often with lots of algae and a few dead carcasses floating in it. We "bandana filtered" first to remove the big debris and to keep from clogging up our micron filters. The steripen killed the virus' that could get by the filter. The water was the best tasting I've ever had. The scouts responsibility was to get the water (three gallon collapsible container). That required about a 100-200 yard hike. We would work as a team to filter the water which required quite a bit of hand pumping but the adults did most of it. We would then use the steripen (watch out for red colored Nalgene bottles - you can't read the LEDs!). A steripen may do the trick on its own but seeing debris floating in your water, regardless of it being sanitary, was not a appetizing. I feel the filter plus steripen was an excellent choice. We would filter, as a minimum, two full Nalgene bottles per person plus enough water for cooking and cleanup for the meal at hand. Being the desert, water was a precious resource and if you are very careful, clean up can be done with about a cup of water. Boiling the water is too time consuming and carries a heavy burden in weight for backpacking. If time and weight is not an issue, boil away. As for "tablets" - the thought of putting in poisons in my drinking water so I could drink it didn't sit very well with me.

Cellarliver - exactly what point did I miss? Yes he forced the hand of the BSA by self reporting he did not meet membership criteria. So, I don't think he was surprised by the BSA's action. One may argue the wisdom of his decision just like some may question my decision to continue to belong to an organization that continues to set membership policies that I feel are not in the best interest of our youth.

I don't know about allowing a Scout to earn Eagle before puberty. He may not turn out to be a "desirable role model" for other Scouts. Seriously, the only age restrictions that should be enforced are the "under 18" rules.(This message has been edited by acco40)

We don't have Yearly Outings because with that frequency, we may lose too many BSA members. Seriously, when I was a Scoutmaster I usually scheduled our annual planning meeting in late July or early August time frame. Scoutmaster's tasks: Homework (evaluate the past year, gather important dates, define troop priorities, etc.), get patrol input, hold a program planning meeting, consult/inform troop committee and CO, distribute plan to troop. Now, the SPL should work with the PLC take the "homework" that was done by the Scoutmaster to get Patrol input (have scribes take good notes) and then hold a troop annual planning meeting (SM, SAs, PLC). Other adults may attend but their function should only be to provide food & drink! Now, if an SPL or PLC does not come prepared revisit if the SM set the proper expectations, did his homework, etc. If the fault truly lies with the SPL then counsel him and reschedule the meeting to a later date. I would advise setting up a status meeting with the SM & SPL (plus an observer for YP) to review so you don't waste everyone's time again. My downfall was the attendance of too many parents (non-SAs) who wanted to plan what they wanted to do and the Scouts were all to willing shut down and let them take over the planning.

Of course, what everyone must realize is that everyone should genuflect before the moderators and enjoy the majestic wash of "truth" that flows down upon them from their posts. :-) Yeah, as a moderator we can get bored with the same recycled threads (patrol formation, committee chair/scoutmaster dichotomy, irate parent when a Scout leader persists in interfacing with the Scout instead of them, anti-OA discussions, ...) so sometimes we enjoy the fireworks in the Issues & Politics threads.

Well, I'm just thankful that the BSA didn't allow that horribly bad role model Condoleezza Rice into our organization. Secretary of State, National Security Advisor, Stanford Professor and Provost, National Security Council member, Phi Beta Kappa member, Notre Dame grad (cum laude), accomplished pianist, etc. but possibly gay so we can't take any chances!

Papadaddy - I have the legal right to wear my underwear on my head, that doesn't make it right. No one is arguing that Augusta or the BSA do not have the legal right to set there own membership qualifications. What I feel is worthy of discussion is how does one react to such an institution? Augusta admitted if first black member in 1990 - after some businesses pulled advertising dollars from another "white only" golf club hosted the PGA championship. So, what type of decision does Tiger Woods have to play there? I for one, don't think that by playing in the Masters in 1995 he was endorsing that type of exclusionary practice. Similarly, by becoming a member of the BSA shouldn't be seen as endorsing the current BSA exclusionary policies.

So ignorance of the law is an excuse!

Six month terms, as opposed to a full year allow the boys on the football team, basketball team or baseball team to play their primary sport one part of the year and concentrate on Scouts the other half of the year. I've had Scouts participate in Scouting all year but during the football season decline seeking a POR due to time constraints. The vast majority of leadership positions are should not elected but appointed by the Scoutmaster/SPL. Nothing the BSA publishes requires "term limits" except for the age factor.

Should a Commissioner be a Scoutmaster? No. Can a Commissioner be a Scoutmaster? Yes. Again, as stated previously, being a commissioner should be one's primary position. However, I've know quite a few Commissioner's who have done both. Heck, I was a unit commissioner, Scoutmaster and Webelos Den Leader all at the same time for about six months. I was recruited to be a unit commissioner by the district and I told them I would but that I would put the most emphasis on my Scoutmaster position. Now, I wouldn't dream of being the unit commissioner for a unit that I was a member never mind a leader. When I was a unit commissioner I told the district that I only wanted to be a commissioner for Packs (I had experience with all four den leader positions as well as committee chair). Anyway, it worked out okay but it did take up a lot of time.

Okay it was me. I know some will thank me and other will curse me for what I've done. Going through the "water is still wet" thread I saw skeptics repeated posts and requests to delete them. Well, that was my intention and I accidentally deleted the thread instead. That was not my intention. Terry, if you can resurrect that thread, please do so.

Flesh-bags of chemical reactions don't care about other flesh-bags full of chemical reactions. I tend to disagree. So do you feel that non-religious folks can't experience sympathy, empathy, guilt, etc.?

I'm with Eamonn here. As a fellow moderator I tread very lightly in the Issues & Politics threads. It is kind of a "buyer beware" area. Also, since my time on the forum goes in spurts - I'll be active for a few days then be absent for weeks or more - I don't continually monitor the posts. That said, don't ever hesitate to "Send Private Message" to me if you feel a post goes out of bounds or for that matter "Ignore this user" if you feel my posts do the same. Welcome and in this case, lurking still falls under the Scout Oath and Law.

Ed, think of it this way, is not believing in the Great Pumpkin a belief system? Most would agree that not believing in the Great Pumpkin is a belief but it doesn't really have much "meat" to constitute any sort of "system." Now, a believer in the Great Pumpkin may also believe that on Halloween night, the Great Pumpkin rises out of the pumpkin patch he deems most "sincere," and flies through the air delivering toys to all the good little children in the world. Also that the Great Pumpkin is very sensitive and easily offended and will bypass anyone who denies or doubts his existence. I'm not sure of all the tenants of "Pumpkinism" but maybe in total they make up a belief system.(This message has been edited by acco40)

Obama called the BSA policy discrimination (it is) and that he opposes this policy that discriminates on basis of sexual orientation. He also stated that the Boy Scouts is a valuable organization that has helped educate and build character in American boys for more than a century. Romney has stated in the past that all people should be able to participate in the Boy Scouts regardless of their sexual orientation. Now, I now he said that during a debate with Kennedy quite a few years ago, not sure what his most recent statements have been. Neither has stated that private organizations do not have the right to set membership policies nor do they feel the BSA should be forced into a position. Both simply stated they disagree with the present policy.

BSA24, I don't think anyone is arguing that being fat can't be helped. However, what many believe, including myself, is that the cause of obesity is more complex than some believe. For example, science has shown that intestinal bacteria in obese humans differ from those in lean individuals and it is postulated that these bacteria are involved in how body weight is regulated and in how the food we eat is absorbed. For example, if you have inefficient bacteria that do not do a good a job of breaking down the food that you eat, more simply passes through and less is absorbed. For someone with more efficient bacteria, eating the same exact amount of food would cause a higher level of nutrient absorption. Also, there have been studies that show that hunger/satiety sensing is not the same in all individuals. Of course, many of us gain weight because we eat in front of the television, lead sedentary lifestyles, eat the wrong types of food, etc. So yeah, we can all regulate our weight but sometimes it is harder to do that for some than others. It reminds me of my brother, a very talented musician. He would get irritated when he would play some music and someone would remark that they wished they were "good at music" like he was. He was irritated because in his eyes, he has worked very hard to maintain the level of proficiency that he has - it didn't just happen. When he told me this, I just chuckled, reminding him of the comments he has made to me many times - I'm just not good at math and science like you are. We all seem to believe what we want to believe to make us feel better about ourselves sometimes - facts be damned.

Hal - a very accurate synopsis in my view. Later on, after having gained valuable experience as president, he became a great statesmen.

Yes, I know this thread was not really about fat folks but ... My father used to think folks with acne we just those with poor hygiene. I know very intelligent folks who thought the reason certain folks got good grades was just because they put forth more effort. My best friend in college, a great athlete, thought that everyone had the same athletic capability - some just put forth more effort. And yes, many think that obese individuals just choose to be fat. Exercise, studying, cleanliness, effort, etc. can help with weight, grades, acne, athletic prowess, etc. not everyone is created equal (regardless of what some documents state). So yes, obese individuals can influence their weight but to trivialize their malady is wrong.

Yes, I was waiting for the punch line. You may also thank former President Carter for allowing U.S. citizens to be able to brew brew beer at home. Well, in retrospect, maybe we should have thanked Billy.

I'm not quite old enough to remember listening to radio shows unless they centered around music or comedy (Meryln - got any Firesign Theatre trivia?) I did spend a couple of years of my youth living in Kansas, Colorado and Arizona. So Gunsmoke, Rawhide, Paladin, Bat Masterson, Bonanza, Wagon Train, Have Gun will Travel, etc. were staples in my house. I still watch The Rifleman on cable and love that show. All those shows were kind of like a Scoutmasters "30 minutes." Anyone remember Branded, a post Rifleman show starring Chuck Connors.? (Bit of trivia - Connors was a Los Angeles Dodger, Boston Celtic and Chicago Bear).

Chick-fil-A Vice President of Public Relations Donald Perry died today, reportedly of a heart attack. He was the media point person after the fast-food chain's president reiterated the company's biblically based values and opposition to same-sex marriage. Seriously, and in fairness, Perry stated that Cick-fil-A desires to not proactively being engaged in the dialogue on gay marriage. So, just as I don't speak for the company that employs me (albeit I'm not the CEO), Cathy was not speaking for Chick-fil-A but as an individual.

According to the OA, a candidate must have Scoutmasters certification as to: o His Scouting Spirit o Adherence to the Scout Oath and Law o Participation in troop activities Yeah, and the camping & rank requirements. Remember, the election is to provide OA candidates, not members. My earlier point was that for 1st Class - the Scoutmaster signs off on Scout Spirit, adherence to the Oath and Law (req 12) and participation in troop activities (req 3 &4). So, again, how could one sign off on 1st Class and not for the OA election if the nights of camping reqs are met?