AwakeEnergyScouter

But that doesn't mean that statistics isn't a valid epistemology. As you reap the fruits of in your daily life. Even manufacturing of physical goods uses statistics for quality control. And that's before we mention statistical mechanics. Knowledge about the world that hinges on statistics is quite possible.

This is the second layer... Does the gender of the abused young person matter? Of course not. Either YPT works or it doesn't. And if it doesn't, the problem isn't "DEI", it's that YPT isn't covering all the bases to prevent CSA.

TBH the rule that you need a female leader around girls all the time sounds a little accusatory of men's character in general to me, despite the statistics. If the idea is that only a woman would protect girls from sexual abuse, what does that imply about all the other male leaders?

Ok, you got any links to official BSA information about these so we can all be on the same page about what specifically you're criticizing? The reason it went off the rails immediately is that people who are angry about too much DEI fit an image of a culture war warrior swinging a sword all around them. IOW it easily looks like you started a conversation by throwing a culture war grenade. If this is not what you intended you may want to be much, much, much more specific about what where when and why.

The blurb itself says right there that they are surveying both girls and boys at the same time, i e they are not only surveying one gender to the exclusion of the other. If you already have a statistically valid sampling of the boys, adding more boys doesn't improve the statistical accuracy, so while it's possible they're collecting more girl data than is useful and/or cost-effective it's not creating a two-tier system. The phrasing does make me wonder if there are relatively speaking few girl members, such that it actually makes sense to send out the survey to all of them in order to maximize the odds that the number of responses ends up being a statistically valid sample of the girls as well as the boys.

How is this discussion helpful?

Sidebar: Why couldn't you just find an elected German official? Why restrict yourself to the base?

Somebody didn't think that name through 😂

I thought we scouts were bougie. Are we not? Lederhosen is not saying otherwise. And 'King/Queen' is still in a lot of Scout Promises... Just sayin' 😉

Time for a REI x BSA collab? 😄

Been telling my scouts that exact thing in the context of the Internal Spirit Award... You can tell it's a scout shirt because it's a Western shirt with two front button pockets and a bunch of badges worn with a necker, even if you don't recognize from what country it's from. Without the badges... Fails scout shirt sniff test

That's how scout shirts are meant to be!

Now that you say that, a parent was complaining about that at our last campout. I mean, I get it. Sewing new badges is yet another thing on the to-do list. The incredibly long, winding to-do list. Blargh. If you just asked me out of the blue, I'd say I don't like sewing on badges either. But that doesn't mean I think that we shouldn't have patches that need sewing on. Not loving every aspect of everything I ever do for scouts isn't the same thing as wanting to change the program. Everything in life is a mix of things you like and dislike. And seeing as scouting is a spiritually based program, and as such is based in the recognition that trying to only have pleasure with no pain isn't possible, it doesn't make sense to sweat these small ordinary irritations. They are meant to be overcome. As a Zen Master Sengcan said... The Great Way is not difficult. It merely avoids picking and choosing.

National didn't poll my scout, who hates taking the belt with all the loops on and off and therefore mostly refuses to wear it. They're not wrong - the loops end up scattering all over the floor a lot. It doesn't have the right vibe. Plus, what kind of a scout shirt isn't covered in patches? And aren't all the sewing avoidance methods already offered enough? 🤦🏼‍♀️ And then there's the ecological impact. I thought the reason for the move to belt loops was just a consequence of that they wanted to move the awards to adventures because the awards were earned by less than 1% of scouts. Came as a surprise to me, because in our pack scouts earn awards all the time. We even provide earmarked opportunities to earn the Outdoor Activity Award, the International Spirit Award (and therefore the World Conservation Award), and the NPS Ranger Award.

I didn't realize it was no longer available. I thought it was still an earnable award for all. Well... In this exact moment, it is. But since the awards are being replaced by belt loops, and it doesn't seem like there's any adventure called something like what's in it, I'm working under the assumption that it will be discontinued June 1 for cub scouts. I'd be happy to be told that's a misunderstanding.

That's a great idea, @OaklandAndy. I'm mourning the loss of the International Spirit Award more and more, as we go through it as a pack. I see the scouts understanding scouts in the bigger picture for every activity we do, and it makes me sad that we can't do it again. But who says? When the scout shop runs out of badges we can make our own 😄

Welcome to the forums, Kelsey!

Apologies, it wasn't my intention to bait. Perhaps I wasn't clear. I meant that in order to stay on the civic side of the line, we all have to self-monitor, which the GSUSA scouter may have failed to do. Political issues one is very touched by are ones one might have to consciously stay far away from the line on. For Palestinians, the Gaza situation is going to be very "hot" for natural reasons. Not a problem per se. But that means needing to figure out how to not let the fire burn when in the role of scouter.

It does feel a little sides-taking. I still think it's better than 'Palestine' bracelets, but absolutely better than the 'Palestine' bracelets in the show of support to wear category is something like those peace bracelets you linked. But in both cases, I don't understand why they didn't go the support scouts in the conflict zone that are already on the ground delivering humanitarian aid route. Clean, simple, loyal. It's probably not hard to guess based on general information about me how I feel about the full-scale invasion. But just because it's easy to guess who I'm hoping will win, and most of us here probably think the same thing, doesn't mean that I should voice that opinion in my role as a scouter. 😳 Maybe especially when that opinion is backed by a lot of emotion and a feeling of having a stake in the outcome. I know what I say won't be even remotely neutral. So I try to avoid the topic in order not to embarrass myself with a tirade I shouldn't be delivering.

This is a lot closer to the line, and as such interesting to consider. My feeling is that supporting other scouts is always ok - so fundraising for an Eagle Scout project is ok because it's generally recognized not just as a good turn but a development exercise for the scout. Compared to the bracelets, certainly Eagle projects deliberately stretch scouts' abilities in a way making bracelets doesn't. The first aid kits seem much closer to that line - and might be over it. I don't think so but I could probably be convinced otherwise without too much trouble, particularly because the council is keeping some of the money. The mitigating circumstances for first-aid kits compared to bracelets with the name of a party in an armed conflict is that the first aid kits don't take any sides in a war the way the bracelets did. If the scheme had been to sell t-shirts that say "Ukraine" and have blue and yellow on them to raise money for first aid kits, that would be the same problem as the Palestine bracelets. It's not just that you're raising money for non-scouting, it's also what you're selling to do so.

This right here is also what sets scouting apart from a lot of other youth organizations. Or should, at least. We need to stick to the basics of what's made scouting successful throughout the decades, and that's the patrol method with the implied trust in the capabilities of the scouts. The last thing they need is more helicopters or snowplows. Separate paper troops and even separate sides of the campground all just seems to add more work for... Nothing. Learning how to lead boys and how to get them to come along was one of the most valuable life lessons I got from scouts, and I want the same for my own scout of course. (No workplace consists only of your own gender.) Not going to get that surrounded by scouts of their own gender whether that's in GSUSA or BSA.

I read the article to mean that it was outside that window, but you're right, it doesn't explicitly say so.

Yeah, exactly. And it's for good reasons. It's not greed, actually. If scouts, like civil servants, weren't allowed to engage in political actions even as private citizens (not using any scouting logos, not in uniform, etc) then that would undercut the movement's goals, and the mom's frustration would make total sense. But that's not the case. The problem isn't fundraising for a cause that isn't scouts, the problem is associating the movement with political causes. Like you say, which cause doesn't really matter, but IMO it's worse when the cause is very divisive.

It does seem a little harsh to threaten immediate legal action, but I understand it better in this case than in suing the BSA over giving girls the option to scout there as well. GSUSA seemingly, if not actually, getting sucked into the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as taking a side could set a whole chain of destructive reactions into motion and tarnished the reputation of the scouting movement as a whole. The same political tensions that are bouncing around politicians (can't please both pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian constituents) would follow into scouting, and promptly create a rift between troops. In my mind, there is a very clear line between building strong civil institutions and/or providing humanitarian assistance in an emergency directly and working for a specific outcome or in support of a particular person, party, or nation in a political situation. (I e had they fundraised for Palestinian scouts doing humanitarian work in Gaza, that would be akin to the WAGGGS and WOSM troops that supported Ukrainian scouts, especially within the exception to the political activity rule.) The scouts were even told they could keep selling the bracelets to fundraise for the Palestinian charity, just not in their capacity as scouts. I think we all engage in some kind of political activity at some point, just expressing our political thoughts if nothing else, just not as scouts or scouters. Our ability to Build(ing) a Better World hinges upon that we are able to work together amongst ourselves with all other scouts. If we can't voluntarily suspend our political expressions while representing scouting, that's going to be almost impossible. Selling bracelets that express support for a political cause as a scout is different from selling bracelets that express support for a particular political cause as a private citizen who also happens to be a scout. The whole idea of a worldwide siblinghood of scouts falls apart if politics dictates whom we're willing to work with. We don't have to love each other equally, but taking political action against each other as scouts is going to splinter the movement. Certainly, the scouts can and should be politically active and use their voices. That's the stuff democracy and strong political institutions are built of. But such political activity can't be using scouting logos, uniforms, or anything else that suggests doing it as a scout.

I just saw this article, and because I can see this going a lot of tense and/or political directions I'm putting this in Issues & Politics. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/st-louis-mom-says-girl-scouts-warned-troop-stop-selling-bracelets-pale-rcna140257 St. Louis mom says Girl Scouts warned her troop to stop selling bracelets as Palestinian fundraiser A St. Louis, Missouri, mother said the Girl Scouts organization threatened her with legal action after her troop sold bracelets to help Palestinian children. Nawal Abuhamdeh said her daughter's troop decided to make bracelets and donate the money rather than participate in the annual cookie sale. Abuhamdeh, who is Palestinian, has led her troop's cookie fundraising event since 2019. But because of the Israel-Hamas war, she said they troop did not have the "energy to be able to sell cookies to a community, especially in a time of crisis." (...) The eight-member troop, which includes girls from Indian, Pakistani, Somalin, Palestinian, Syrian and Jordanian backgrounds, led the project, Abuhamdeh said. They held meetings about what material to use and where beads should be placed. The girls decided to sell beaded bracelets for $5 and clay designs for $10 and donate the money to Palestine Children Relief Fund. (...) Almost immediately, Abuhamdeh said she received an email from Girl Scouts of Eastern Missouri telling her to remove anything that associated Girl Scouts with the bracelets. "It felt very cold and just full of reprimand and demand," Abuhamdeh said. "Demanding that I remove Girl Scout's logo … disassociate ourselves from the organization and just continue this on our own personal time, deeming it as political and partisan, claiming that they have to be inclusive to all members and that they should be neutral on all sides." (...) A spokesperson for Girl Scouts of the USA said that its policies state that Girl Scouts and volunteers are not allowed to fundraise "for purposes other than Girl Scouting." Fundraising restrictions are lifted in rare cases, which included a brief period in late 2023 and early 2024 that allowed fundraisers related to the Israel-Hamas war, the spokesperson said in a statement. "Girl Scouts of the USA and our local Girl Scout Councils build girls of courage, confidence and character who make the world a better place, and we encourage all members to stand up for the issues important to them," the spokesperson said. "Additionally, girls can always decide as a troop to use their cookie proceeds and donate them to charities of their choice that appear on Charity Navigator." Abuhamdeh said she that was disappointed in the Girl Scouts' response to the troop's bracelet fundraiser, and that after meeting with the other parents, the troop decided to disband. "It triggered emotions I felt growing up. Anytime I would express myself or tell people proudly that I was a Palestinian, I would often be met with words of, like, ‘That’s threatening.’ I would be confused growing up," she said. "That, I think, was what I was feeling. Just disappointment … and I was really sad." The girls continued to sell bracelets, but briefly stopped after reaching 600 orders from across the country, Abuhamdeh said. They plan to begin selling them again this weekend. I see the line GSUSA is drawing here very clearly. I cringed when I saw the picture of the bracelet. I read about what other GSUSA troops did to support Ukrainians (not the nation-state Ukraine as a party in the conflict, and during a special dispensation time) also. It was very similar to what WOSM troops have done, also in collaboration with Scouts Ukraine. I suspect I'm not the only one to whom the line here is clear - but does anyone understand from personal experience why the interviewed mom doesn't see it as far as the scouting movement goes? Selling items that express personal support on behalf of the wearer for a side in an armed conflict is just so obviously not something scouts should be involved in to me that I'm a bit shocked. Is it a lack of understanding the civil nature of the movement? Is it community grief? That feeling of being viewed with suspicion obscuring the distinction between a civil and a political organization? Any Muslim and/or Palestinian scouters here who could offer their perspective?