AwakeEnergyScouter

Thank you for sharing your experience. This obviously isn't what I was hoping to hear (I was of course hoping that my concern was overblown or that times had changed), but one does after all need to be prepared ⚜️☺️ Now I know we do need to have talk about this in a few years, or - quelle horreur! - next month before day camp. I will call the council to ask about religion at day camp so I know. If I end up continuing as a Scouts BSA leader if/when my scout crosses over, I absolutely will emphasize that any and all religious expression and practice at scouting events is 100% optional.

I think I will contact them, thanks! I would love to strengthen our mahasangha by simply connecting. I know BCA has done a lot for Buddhist scouting. Bobby Tanaka with the National Buddhist Committee on Scouting is amazing. Actually, I should talk to him too. Wait, they pray Christian prayers before meals, too? Well, at least there we have a form I could ask to substitute, our lineage meal chant or Plum Village's meal gatha.

I agree that it would be unscoutlike, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't happen, so it's helpful to hear at least one American scouter affirm that basic view. The wall of Christianity is intimidating sometimes, especially in view of US society as a whole, even though I know very well that the scouting movement explicitly isn't a Christian movement. There clearly are a lot of people who want to make it one, and it's hard to tell how well they've succeeded. Had a lot of them systematically not left the BSA already I don't think I would have dared pick Cub Scouts over Brownies or whatever the young scouts in GSUSA are called. I did see the religious awards, and we just threw a sangha party to celebrate that my scout earned theirs! I'm quite proud actually, that was a lot of material to get through. I had to start with bribes of tea and cookies like they give the littlest nuns candies during sadhanas, but then the interest in the life of the Buddha took over and the cookie-eating pace slowed significantly, and then they wanted to finish the whole thing up through his paranirvana even though it wasn't required for the award. When we went to our center in uniforms to help open the shrines and participate in an adult public sit for the first time we flushed out a number of old scouts, all of whom were surprised that the BSA has anything for Buddhists. The WOSM adult friendship scarf is white with a purple edge, which says "Making a Better World". It so happens that when you thank a teacher for teaching in our lineage, you offer them a white scarf as a symbol of your primordial buddhanature, the ultimate totality of what you (and also they and everything else) are. So, since the friendship scarf is also white and the edge message is not coincidentally similar to our socially engaged vision of creating enlightened society, I blessed and offered one to the senior teacher who oversaw my creation of the curriculum details. She also is an old scout, so that seems doubly appropriate. She also just left on a pilgrimage to see our current lineage head, so instead of the customary champagne toast to the lineage I blessed an extra one for him to send with her as an offering. ⚜️☸️ Hoping we can let more people in the mahasangha know about the possibility of Buddhist scouting. Thank you very much for your support! Although, I'm your sister ☺️

This whole letting it all hang out is difficult for me, and part of that is definitely cultural. https://satwcomic.com/the-easy-way So they really do do Christian services at camps regularly? Sigh. Does this mean I can practice my Buddhism as if I was at home? I've sat outside my tent, hoping that people write it off as trendy nonsense, but I try to hide my land spirit offerings and such because I don't want any questions. It's private. And I don't want to accidentally be seen as proselytizing to others' children! I don't know that I would be comfortable doing even foundational and Mahayana practices in public view even if others wouldn't mind, but I can't help but suspect that they would in fact mind. I'd hate to find out that they do, and ruin friendships. Not sure what my scout will want to do, but it will be good to be clear from the start that they don't have to go and that it really is ok to be different.

In the abstract I agree, in practice I don't think it can be done in the general case. How many religions are there? How many different ways of practicing? It would suck up all available time with just a few religions. I mean what I would want isn't a flavor, it's a completely different event. The closest thing to a Christian church service is doing a public sadhana not requiring empowerment, and even that doesn't make sense to just throw out into a crowd because even if they're Buddhist, they may not practice that specific one or do tantra at all. Lots of people stick to the sutrayana. We could all sit, and all dharmic religions could follow our own specific instructions, but then the tables are just reversed on the Abrahamic folks who don't meditate. This is why I think we should just leave religion to the private sphere and get on with the scouting. As BP said, it's underlying it all anyway.

Thank you! This is very helpful. It seems a bit rude to just leave a camp event, but if this is acceptable then that's a clear route to not having to participate in someone else's religion if all planning and checking fails. I'm not entirely sure I understand what you said about value system contortions. Would you be willing to explain?

I'm glad to hear that your troop has mastered religious coexistence. This is a key skill for creating a good, stable future, as well as something that's logically required to live up to the scout law. Our pack has also been very welcoming, despite the fact that we're almost certainly odd ducks in an incredibly Christian part of the US. It isn't this level that I'm worried about. I was previously, before we joined, but I simply avoided all units owned by churches and this seems to have worked. However, I'm reading about religious services being held at camps and camporees, and the content of all of these seems to be generally Abrahamic at best, explicitly Christian at worst. I see lots of voices here blending Christianity and scouting quite freely, even people saying that it's ok to proselytize to scouts. Someone mentioned having heard fire and brimstone sermons at a camporee, and that's just not something I want my child exposed to for multiple reasons. How do I know what kind of religious content is part of an event like that that's organized by people outside my own unit? That's my question. As for atheism, Buddhists are explicitly allowed, so I guess atheists are allowed after all. The way that religious declaration is worded in and of itself sounds an awful lot like "you have to be a Christian" with an asterisk on it. In terms of signing agreements, however, the asterisk definitely means that people who disbelieve in the existence of the Christian God can be BSA members even though the standard interpretation of "God" in the singular and capitalized in English is the Christian God. It seems like what the statement is really after is whether you can connect to the luminosity of emptiness, in other words whether you are a strict materialist or not, and plenty of atheists aren't strict materialists.

I am not a Christian and neither is my scout. Neither of us believe in either the old gods or the new God. My own scouting experience was secular, and I want my scout to be free to seek their own beliefs as I was. Some of the things I'm reading here and elsewhere on the internet have rekindled my worry that Cub Scouts and Scouts BSA are, in practice, an arm of the Christian church except for in very select spots, despite the loose technical definition of "God" in the religious pledge. I can select a secular pack and troop, but I don't want to send my scout into some district Christian recruiting camp, or give them the impression that scouting is Christian. How can I ensure that I don't do this by mistake? Are some councils more prone to having Christianity be part of events than others? Does it depend on the people organizing? How do other non-Christians navigate all the Christianity everywhere?

I recently dug round the WOSM pages for MoP, and even looking for some of these other programs there I end up at Scouts for SDGs over and over because so many of the links go there. That may explain some of the lack of awareness. It never occurred to me to ask if it's ok for BSA members to execute WOSM programming, I just did it. I took their SDG training, selected from their suggested exercises, used their materials - but with modifications. Why I modified might be another reason why some of the WOSM programs aren't popular here. Several of the SDGs veer into politics in the US by their very existence, and because scouting is one of the few community organizations in which liberal and conservative people work side by side to build community, I dropped several SDGs to not alienate the parents whose attire makes me think that they might find some of the SDGs aggravating or offensive. I don't know if I was right, but coming in from another NSO I have to say that I got an off-in-your-own-corner vibe from the BSA. After taking the leap and joining, I see it's not quite like that, but there does seems to be a general lack of sense of being part of a global movement in scouts here. Some people very much have interest, but the global community perspective can't be taken for granted. When I read WOSM's materials, I experience a sense of relaxation and familiarity with the perspective. I can't know for sure, maybe someone else can comment, but a lot of WOSM programs come out of of a view that doesn't seem to be generally shared by the BSA. Now, why is MoP an exception? I raised some eyebrows at the BSA suggestion that you can tag basically any service project a MoP project for the extra badge. Not sure how many MoP projects are actually executed primarily from the WOSM guidance and view, or how one would even know the answer to that question. See below for just one example. "How is Messengers of Peace different from Good Turn for America? In terms of project reporting, MOP is very similar. However, MOP emphasizes peace and the influence Scouts around the world can have. It also adds a global recognition to the local and national recognition Scouts already receive for their service. Why do we need a new program? Messengers of Peace is less a new program than a new focus—and an opportunity to connect and share with Scouts around the world without leaving home. It’s designed to integrate with Journey to Excellence reporting, as described below."

Thank you to everyone who has participated in this discussion! I am developing next year's bear schedule right now, and since my own scouting experience was in a different NSO that didn't have something like cub scouts at the time, this has been tremendously helpful in determining what kind of programming philosophy to use. Hearing a variety of viewpoints has been very enriching, and now that my scout and I have been in the pack for a year and a half I see some of the points made reflected in the kids, especially my own. I also see I'm not alone in taking certain approaches, so I'm probably not bucking some BSA tradition in doing that, which is also good to know. Thank you all.

Good to know, thanks!

I haven't seen any mention of GPS in either the wolf or bear adventures - did I perhaps miss it? Or can cub scouts perhaps earn merit badges? I thought you had to be in Scouts BSA for that. I'm not intending this to be for an award or an adventure, though, just think I see an opportunity to practice core scouting skills while having fun.

I thought about it, but I'm old-school and want to keep all electronics at home. We go out into nature to commune with nature and each other, not to fiddle with devices. Plus, GPS is to map and compass as a TI-83 is to doing it by hand. I think you should know it the hard way before you take the shortcut, at least if you can make it fun enough when it's not school. Given how much fun they had with the map and compass, I see a yes there, at least for these particular kids. I was thinking about essentially converting the geocaches into an unconventional orienteering exercise by marking the coordinates on a map, though ☺️

A bit off topic at this point, but I would love to beta test that orienteering lesson with my wolf-soon-to-be-bear den. We just did Finding Your Way and they loved it, so I see an opportunity to feed that beast with orienteering. I'm not an expert myself, just loved orienteering in gym class, so would love a plan to execute... Plus an excuse to go trail running 😇

What? You would think he would come to ours! 🤪 Actually, now that I think about, he does. The rumor went around camp that the King was there, but my patrol couldn't figure out where in time to see him.

Wait, what? American jamborees have big-name non-scout performers and add-on tours? No wonder it's so expensive. Our campfire arena had 100% scout talent and there was nothing to tour because we were sitting in the middle of the forest in a temporary city made out of slender young trees and rope and tents. Granted, this was now decades ago so I'm sure it's more expensive now in Sweden as well, but still... We were dropped off by our parents or by buses and picked up 1-2 weeks later.

Oh, sorry, I thought you might have sung the song.. the twist in the original is that the parakeet wants ice cream and Coca-Cola 😂

🎶 Jag är en liten undulat,som fått för dåligt med mat,för dom jag bor hos,för dom jag bor hos,Dom är så snåla.Dom ger mig sill varenda dag,och det vill jag inte ha,för jag vill bara,för jag vill bara,ha lax med dillsås 🎶 Good improvising on the verses situation 😂 I don't remember when the formal split was, but the church lost its social power long before then. When my parents were in elementary school, they sang Christian hymns in music class, even though not everyone believed. We would have been shocked to do so in the 1990s and 2000s. Most of the people I knew that got confirmed did it because it's tradition and/or because you get presents. I think I knew a single person in my classes that was a Christian, so I'm surprised to hear there was a month-long religious scout camp in the late 80s. My mom even met a priest that was an atheist, but wanted to comfort people in crisis. But there are still Christians around I suppose, you hear about them in the news sometimes. They must enjoy having somewhere to talk about their religion. But almost everyone, including the Christians, feels the sacredness and beauty of nature. We can all agree on that. Nobody wants to stay in a city for Midsummer for a reason.

Oh, wow, you guys in NSF scouts must have been very religious! I noticed the mention of confirmation at a scout camp earlier, which struck me as very unusual, but I thought maybe it was some extra thing a few scouts happened to be doing at the same time the scout camp was on. Is NSF a Christian organization? I thought they just wanted people to drink less. This is a scout song I've never heard! We just trolled our leaders by drumming our cutlery on the long tables like a drum circle until someone announced that we could come take food 🤭 Bonus points for for chanting Mat! Mat! Mat! I do think we stopped that at some point because, well, we matured and it wasn't funny anymore. We started relating to the leaders more as advisors than rule-setters. Does this mean you sang a lot of religious songs at your campfires if everyone was a Christian? Did you sing the usual ones too, or is there a split between us regular scouts and the religious ones? By the usual ones I mean starting with fram med lägerbålshumöret.., Trampa på gasen, Temperaturen, Gasflygmaskinen, Omkring vår eld, En kulen natt, I natt jag drömde, Brev från kolonien, I medelhavet, Vem kan segla, När lägerelden brunnit ner... That last one I always loved ending with, and it's short, so I actually translated it to sing at our last campout. Vad är det du tycker så bra om med svensk mat? Det har jag nog aldrig hört någon säga om Sverige 😂

Thanks @MattR, but I know the melody very well from scouts already. We sang it around the campfire all the time, usually followed by joking about all the ways we were going to traumatize our leaders and get them sent to jail 😂 There are lots of other Swedish scout songs I wish I could share with my cub scouts, but of course the only scout who would get the jokes is mine (who speaks Swedish), so not much point. I see a modified BP Spirit in the Cub Scout Songbook, and a few English scout songs we also sang, and here I found what I thought was a Swedish scout song already has an English translation! Do we sing the Pizza Hut, KFC, McDonald's song here in the US too? That one always struck me as the most American of the English scout songs. The younger kids might enjoy the movements and nutritional naughtiness.

I wasn't sure if my scout was ready to enjoy camping yet when we planned to go to our first pack overnighter - for only one of the two nights in case it went poorly. While I had to bribe them with a surprise present to go, once they did it was a done deal and they forgot about the present. They absolutely did not want to go home, and getting to go camping for a whole weekend with the other scouts to play with is THE major draw of scouting for them. Staying two nights is also much more relaxing for me. I am completely failing to see what the problem is, and don't have a guess either. Other parents in our pack feel similarly. This rule is almost certainly going to be effectively broken unless a good rationale can be given.

Thanks for posting this! I had no idea that this was originally an American song. We sang what apparently was an inspired take on this original by singer-songwriter Cornelis Vreeswijk around the campfire. Our version is definitely less clean, though: Hey mom, hey dad! Here's a letter from your favorite son We're having fun at summer camp There are 28 of us gangster kids in a Large barrack with lots of beds Can you send more money? That would be a good deed I have lost it all playing dice It's lots of fun here I can promise Although a little hard to sleep The guy in the bed above me Doesn't wake up when he needs to, no I have lost two front teeth When I tried to walk on my hands When we were playing charades So now when mom sees me she'll be furiousOut in the forest there are germs But my friend he has pills That he bought from a bad guy And if you eat them you turn into a super fun guy The leader, he has gone He will never be the same Because the police came and arrested him Last week when we played forest fire Out in the forest there are deer In the barracks there are nits And my best friend Tage He has a little pocket knife in his stomach They're going to operate on him Well, now I can't think of anything more Hug and kiss and heartfelt thanks then Now we're heading out to burn the barrack next to ours! The lyrics rhyme in Swedish just as they do in the original but I didn't even try to make the meter and rhyme fit. Does this thread mean that someone might be upset if I teach my cub scouts the American original? It seems fine to me, even ends on a happy note and nobody goes to jail 🤣

Conveniently, I already tested pre-mixing the dry ingredients for bannock in a plastic bag and kneading the dough in the bag after adding water and taught my scout how to bake it on a stick. We're ready to make bread for the pack also!

I see a few of those freeze-dried meals that might be worth a try... After all, if kids have run around enough to be hungry they might be more willing to try new things. Last I heard quinoa was boring, but being outside can shake things up. Thanks for the tip. I was wondering if I'd have to dry my own ingredients to make my own dried meals 🤔 That patrol soup looks great! I think the recipe is too big for our Trangia kitchen, but the pack has some big cast-iron pots ☺️

When I was a child on hike, I ate meat and dairy. Now I don't, and am struggling to come up with good outdoor menus - my ideas are either very heavy and/or require a very long cook time. Even worse, my scout doesn't like the camp classics I grew up with that are veg and often turns their nose up at anything with sauces. (Except Indian food, go figure.) So, that rules out most of the freeze-dried meals that used to be my go-to. We have pre-made Indian in bags as a solid meal for both of us, but that's it! However, since we're about to tackle Bear Picnic this upcoming school year, I see an opening to work through this as a family, but I want to have some ideas ready. Veg scouters, what are your favorite camp and hike meals?