AwakeEnergyScouter

Perhaps my choice of words here was poor. These scouts are not yet paddling proficiently, so it will be a paddling hike in the same way a 2-mile easy walk in the woods is called a hike for cub scouts. The proposition is to paddle only a short distance, then turning around to return to the dock, in a still wide river. I am taking care to not put myself or the youth at risk. Thank you for reconfirming that my plans are indeed consistent with BSA safety policies as they stand today.

Right. Thank you for checking. So the documents taken as a whole do contradict each other if interpreted literally, but I think the very clear and explicit permission in the AAG ought to take preference because it makes sense to let cubs practice in gentle waters given the adventures they have, because it's so explicit and clearly not a mistake or mis-inference of a single word or something like that, and because official BSA channels keep transmitting the information in the AAG rather than the one line in the GTSS. If this used to be forbidden, then it seems likely the one line in GTSS is simply a leftover. I check my sources, I check policies, and I keep current on training. I plan outings months in advance to make sure they are safe and well thought out. I even sew on badges ASAP. Because I'm prepared, as an example for the scouts.

Our pack saw something similar. We ourselves didn't join as Lions because of the pandemic (wanted to save risk pool entirely for in-person school and select acquaintance visits), and only joined half-way through Tiger year. The pack was small then, but during the Wolf year the den doubled in size. Lots of scouts who left during the pandemic never got back to it, and while more are joining now, there were few Webelos and Bears when my child was a Wolf. Webelos still thin, actually. Luckily, we had the adults to stay active even with few scouts, so we have something to offer new scouts.

I appreciate the step back, thank you @Eagle94-A1 Perhaps I wasn't clear. I am getting my information 100% from official BSA sources, because safety policy is important. I am not saying that I want to ignore safety policy. I am quoting live, actual BSA training and guidance. I am far from the only person to interpret the AAG in this way, as I have already offered you evidence for. I am not proposing changes, I am quoting existing BSA policy in official documents that the GTSS chief presumably knows. If you think I am misinterpreting it, then please clarify specifically how you think the Age Appropriate Guidelines should be reconciled with that single vague lines in GTSS and the absence of what you're claiming is policy in Aquatics Supervision and the online Safety Afloat class. If you think the GTSS chief's office made a bad policy, then talk to him. I'm just trying to follow the guidance his office issued, that's all. I am not in charge of these policies. From Age Appropriate Guidelines to Scouting Activities from BSA, image of relevant aquatics section attached: Whole file: https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/HealthSafety/pdf/680-685.pdf In the aquatics section, there's a line labeled "Tubing (floating in gently flowing water)", for which there are checks in the Wolf/Bear Scouts and Webelos columns. Wolf, Bear, and Webelos scouts are Cub Scouts, and the activity description explicitly says this is in flowing water, not water with a 0 m/s flow rate. So, since this is quite explicit and clear, I interpret this to mean that Wolves and Bears ranked as Swimmers can go tubing in gently flowing water. Right below that line, also in the aquatics section, is the activity "Paddle Sports: Youth Operated on Calm or Gently Flowing Water". For this activity, there is a shared note in the Lion and Tiger columns that says "Passengers Only", which I interpret to mean that Lions and Tigers, who are Cub Scouts, may ride as passengers in paddled craft such as canoes and double kayaks. There is also a clarification note across all of the other columns, so including more Cub Scout ranks, that says "Paddle Sports Include Canoes, Kayaks, Pedal Boats, Rafts, Rowboats, SUP". I interpret this to mean that Wolves, Bears, and Webelos may, if they have sufficient swimming and paddling skills, operate their own canoe, kayaks, pedal boats, rafts, Rowboats, and SUPs on calm or gently flowing water, i e no rapids, not even class I. This activity description also explicitly says flowing water, not motionless water. Further, this information in the Age Appropriate Guidelines to Scouting Activities is reflected elsewhere in official Scouting media: Aaron on Scouting: https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2022/06/27/what-to-know-before-taking-cub-scouts-in-or-near-the-water/ "But what about canoeing, kayaking or row boating on still water — water that is calmer than Class I rapids? Yes, but Lions and Tigers are allowed to be passengers only. What about tubing — floating in gently moving water? Yes, but only for Wolf and older." https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2023/05/25/now-is-a-great-time-to-refocus-on-aquatics-safety/ "Wolf Cub Scouts and older can participate in tubing activities in gently flowing water. Lions and Tiger Cub Scouts can ride as passengers in paddle sports, including canoeing, kayaking, pedal boats, rafts and row boats; older Cub Scouts can fully participate in those activities." Scouting Magazine: https://scoutingmagazine.org/2020/05/five-steps-to-a-safe-and-fun-aquatics-program/ "For example, tubing — floating in gently flowing water — is available to Wolf Scouts and older. It doesn’t matter if a Tiger or Lion Scout in your pack has gone tubing dozens of times with their family; when it comes to official Scout events, only Wolf Scouts and older can go tubing. Then you’ve got paddle sports. Lions and Tigers can only ride in a canoe on calm water, whereas older Cub Scouts can actually start to learn paddle strokes." Cub Chat Live on water safety: Listen from 11:36 of https://www.youtube.com/live/hjwOa4FD23Q?feature=share This is all almost verbatim from the AAG, over and over, all in official BSA policy and communication channels. So, if you see a better interpretation of the sum of all official BSA aquatics safety policies and documents, please explain it specifically so that I can understand what logic you are using, please.

There's no need to yell. We are having a disagreement between two reasonable people about how to interpret written guidelines, nothing more. Or are you perhaps unaware that using all caps is considered yelling on the Internet? I noted your point, namely that the Safety Afloat section in the current Guide to Safe Scouting says "Cub Scout activities afloat are limited to council, district, pack, or den events that do not include moving water or float trips (expeditions)." I am looking at the GTSS as I am typing this; I noted the point, read the whole section, re-took Safety Afloat to check if I misremembered or missed a key point, and checked the Age Appropriate Guidelines again to make sure that I am prepared and doing the right thing. Our disagreement hinges on "moving". Taken literally, any flow in any direction in any body of water above 0.00 cm/s is moving, and Cub Scouts can only paddle in old flooded mine shafts. Ok, a bit dramatic, but a literal zero flow rate of any kind is very rare even in lakes. Have you never been swimming in a lake only to suddenly find you swam into a current? Or realized as you're rowing that you have to counter one? Surely, what matters isn't a literally zero flow rate but rather that it be barely noticable even for a beginner, especially since water with literally no flow is going to be full of bacteria and not wise to be in, and any water we boat in we need to be prepared to enter unexpectedly. So the question is really, in my view, moving how much. How much current is too much? The Safety Afloat training course cutoff is no rapids for Cub Scouts - that's nice and objective, too. It's also consistent with the Age Appropriate Guideline, which you says needs clarification. They certainly do, if you are right. Given that they say explicitly that even Wolves are allowed on gently flowing water and can even go tubing (which requires moving water or it's not tubing), it's not an unreasonable interpretation to think that "moving" in the GTSS means "rapids". In my opinion, it is the GTSS that needs clarification, because that one sentence is much more vague than the AAG. I am not relying on others to check on safety for me, I went straight to the horse's mouth and took the relevant training, and that's "who" is telling me that river sections without rapids are ok for Cub Scouts. But, in again checking my interpretation, I searched more broadly, and turned up more BSA official channels that explicitly say it's ok, like the AAG. https://blog.scoutingmagazine.org/2022/06/27/what-to-know-before-taking-cub-scouts-in-or-near-the-water/ You are of course free to disagree, but let's not yell, please.

Already done before planning the trip! In Safety Afloat, they focus on what is and isn't allowed based on swimming ability; that none of our Bears will be classified as swimmers also takes care of that they're there to learn paddling skills and aren't already ready to control the crafts by themselves. Each canoe or double kayak will have one scout and one parent, who is the swimmer and main paddler. The Age Appropriate Guidelines for Scouting Activities explicitly allows Wolves and up to operate paddle craft on calm or gently flowing water. I have located a commercial canoe rental service on a gently flowing river section on which Cub Scouts already regularly go paddling - but since we're not allowed to do any class of rapids, we will have to turn around at a certain point, which is just as well since everyone is still learning and we don't want to go too far. Since the Bear adventure Salmon Run includes showing proper rowing and paddling form, it seems asinine to ask the scouts to only practice on dry land! It's adventure time 🛶 Be prepared 🫡

I'm planning a paddling hike for the Bears to really practice those Salmon Run skills, so I'm going to log that too, plus the camping and the yearly swimming event we do! Thanks again 🙇🏼‍♀️ My goal as ADL is to send well-prepared and genuine scouts on into the proper BSA scouting program, and here's a great way to measure whether I'm succeeding. The Bears should cross over with some tangible progress on that, partly in situations where they were in charge and had to grapple with the difficulties of taking the reins and then using them skillfully for the right reasons. The pathfinder and flagbearer on this first hike immediately learned some important basics, like that you need some technical skills to be able to see where you should go and that others may not respect your new authority. The naturalist made both matter less, but next month we will revisit how a group following a leader is actually a form of cooperation, if everyone follows a certain role, and how that role isn't your Self.

Thanks, @InquisitiveScouter! I wasn't going to log them in Scoutbook, because I thought it didn't really count yet, but if it does then the scouts deserve all credit! Thanks for letting me know, so that I can serve my scouts much better! 🙇🏼‍♀️ I will also prepare a little information for crossovers, then, showing them how they're already on their way towards that grand award!

Our new pack hiking club launched yesterday! Upon joining, scouts get an empty dongle with a locally sourced wood slice with PACK X / HIKING CLUB burned onto it (see picture, pack number erased since this is a public forum). For 5, 10, 20, 30, and 40 miles hiked scouts get a bead to thread on the lace, each in the colors of the symbols of the "parts" of flowing, dignified mental energy, windhorse. (So, connecting to 'cheerful', 'brave', and 'mentally awake'.) The colors are yellow for warm genuine heart, orange for meek like tiger, white for cheerful like snow lion, red for outrageous like Garuda, and blue for inscrutable like dragon. They don't know the symbolism yet, I will point it out piece by piece as they earn beads. At 50 miles, they get a hiking stick. The two hike scout leaders have the jobs of carrying windhorse flags on a pole to show the direction clearly and using a map and compass to find the right path. A flagbearer and a pathfinder. I wanted to make sure this first one was a lot of fun and set a good tone for what the fun in hiking is, so we hiked 2 miles at a nature conservation center with a knowledgeable volunteer wildlife and conservation work guide. It completely worked; when it was time to pull out some insect and animal track activities, nobody cares because the scouts were so busy looking for both on their own with a lot of excitement. I counted that as a win and let them. We saw and identified so many animals and plants that we far exceeded the hiking adventure requirements for everyone who came. And since it was at a conservation center, and we hiked 2 miles (and no Webelos came), everyone who hiked also finished their rank hiking adventure! Because summer is the difficult and maybe dangerous hiking season where we live, we substituted the usual hot chocolate for tough weather for fruit popsicles to cool down at the end. Only some melted in the icebox 🤪 🏜️

Definitely the project for anyone who's felt the urge to be a romantic lighthouse keeper like Moominpappa. 🚨🪨👻

Herrlich! Ich kenne das Gefühl ♥️ Wir können unserer Selbst sein, und daß ist genau weifalls jemand Scout werden wolltest. Wonderful! I know that feeling ♥️ We can be ourselves, and that is exactly why anybody wants to be a Scout.

@MattR No, you hid the right one! Thanks! No need to dwell on negativity if that kind. Have fun on the trail! 🏕️

This is kind of amazing. ♥️

Oh, I see. It's gone. Then my response does seem random. I'll delete it too, now it's wildly off topic in seeming context. Edit: I guess I can't. Ok, yes, it was in response to a deleted post.

Well, yes, we all transitioned to constitutional monarchies (or republics) as you might recall? The reigning monarch wasn't just stripped of their political power, they were also stripped of their position as commander in chief. Like the political leader, commander in chief is meant to be chosen by merit. And we've tried very, very hard to limit the number of actual war veterans, because wars are awful. It was going rather well until quite recently. That being said, some commanders in chief have gone down in the history of their countries as national heroes in the same way a reigning monarch might have, such as field marshal Mannerheim. When I think of that kind of leadership in war, I think of him. He saved Finland. Brings a tear to my eye given what's happening in "the borderlands", because two of my great grandfathers fought in the Winter War and one of them didn't make it. But Finland did. 🇫🇮 🇪🇺

I agree completely. It's good to explore various skills, but we scouts are primarily about being in and connecting to the outdoors. NSO awards and badges should reflect this. We're only secondarily overachievers 😉

From what I've seen, it's definitely not worth standard conference price. I have no idea if this is typical for NAM, but when I plunk down almost $1000 (well, really, my employer does) for a professional conference I leave with new research information, new connections, and a sense of where the field is heading and who's currently pushing the limits. I'd expect the same for NAM, then, but if taking an airport train counts as a highlight that was absolutely not worth $750. The normalization of most cub dens could have been an email. Have to wonder about the ROI of NAM, and even the opportunity cost even if the attendee fees pay for it. Scouting isn't a research field and it's not something to sell at a giant expo. Why is a professional conference-type event helpful?

So continue with the malicious compliance on two-night cub scout camping then? We're on it 😂

My reaction was in part due to that the word hit an uncanny valley for me. I have no idea what the word means exactly, but there are so many possibilities that lack genuineness that I can't help but then wonder how on Earth any large session called that is going to help scouters execute the program like @MattR was saying. I hope I was wrong, but it sounded like no matter what it was, it was a wasted opportunity to get practical in favor of some kind of rah-rah our country is the best cheer fest. There's a time and place for that too, but I don't think it's an organizational conference. JMHO. Too close to... some historical bad stuff. And common practice in some countries where human rights violations are routine. I kind of recoil as soon as I'm expected to make a public big show of how patriotic I am. Doesn't matter for what country, bad vibes. That just makes me want to be patriotic in my closet so nobody can use my feelings for their political campaigns.

Glad I wasn't the only one with that reaction.

Am I the only one not entirely comfortable with corporate-sponsored scouting? Shouldn't we be in the forest tying knots or drying blisters or something, maybe talking to the trees and animals, stuff that's mostly free because we're anti-materialists? Or am I just too cave yogi about the whole thing?

That seems like a good summary of the situation. The BSA is looking inward, but not necessarily in a fruitful way, while the movement continues elsewhere. It would seem that the BSA needs to raise windhorse, the feeling of effortless flow one has when one is engrossed in a task one is doing. To raise windhorse, you first have to be present, not in the past or future. It seems the past is the problem for BSA. The past certainly needs examination, but you can't fruitfully try to live there. Eventually BSA will collectively snap out of it, but the question is whether it will be in time to prevent the organization becoming severely decimated. Youth who want to build a better world aren't going to be drawn to an organization that's navelgazing and constantly talking about the past.

I thought WAGGGS also called them NSOs? I'm not always clear on the difference since Scouterna (SSF in my time) is aligned with both and it just doesn't seem that important. Scouting is scouting. If WAGGGS calls them something else then I guess it's a guaranteed one per country on definition grounds.

I agree that you have to deliver on your core mission or you're in big trouble as an organization, but neither councils nor the BSA are stand-alone organizations connected by legalese, they're part of a movement. I e the key question is does the activity fit the movement, not the text of a policy. STEM programs for non-scouts develops youth; consistent with aims of movement. No ideological conflict. If it can be done without compromising running scouts, then I see only upsides. If it can't, then it's a potentially dangerous distraction and should be jettisoned in favor of supporting scouts. Sounds like it depends on the council in practice.

Thanks, @InquisitiveScouter! Norton should be a good source, and #8 is something most adults could do without much extra effort. We could turn ourselves into regular camera checkers. If all kinds of adults are looking for cameras in bathrooms, odds are better they will be found quickly, and maybe even never put in there in the first place if there's enough checking for them.