captainron14

acco40, "FYI, Life (hence the name) was once the highest rank one could achieve in Scouts." Where did you get that info? I think you might be mistaken, because until the mid 20s "Star" out ranked "Life" in the "Honor Ranks" (with Eagle being the highest)After earning First Class, then the highest actual rank. If you look at photos of boys in uniform in the 20s, they had their First Class badge on their sleeve, even after they earned their Eagle. The only thing that predates Eagle as the highest rank was the proposal that the highest rank was to be named a Wolf Scout, but that was dropped in favor of the Eagle. This goes back to the beginning of BSA. I don't have access to my old Handbooks right now, maybe someone can provide the actual dates of what I am referring to. Or if I am mistaken, provide the correct information. John, good point.

We had a troop at last years Camp-o-ree roast a pig for Saturdays Dinner. They kind of cheated a bit by buying the pig from a local butcher and cooked it on a spit. They cooked it most of the afternoon and into the evening, but surprisingly it was very tasty. I expected it to be either unevenly cooked or overdone, but it was neither. For the evening campfire the pigs head was mounted on a pike (along with a pineapple crown) and used in their skit (as well as leading the troop to assembly). Good times.

Man! It is too bad that the "PW Derby" (for many)has turned into the Cub version of Little League! The version where, the race is more for the adults than the boys. All too often you look at the cars and you can tell which ones the boys had some part of the construction, and the ones that Dad did. The excuse that they give is I did it for "him". They should try doing it WITH him rather for him. That's what it all about. Back when I was a CM at our PWD, a good meaning parent brought a couple of "extra" cars (ones that were made/used by her sons in years previous). Her reasoning was for those boys who forgot their car or did not have one made. She gave these cars out at the beginning with no one knowing about it. Well, this was brought to my attention after someone recognized one of the cars (it had gone all the way to Council a few years before). I DQd the cars and had them race after the competition. Boy did some parents come unglued. They got caught up in the heat of moment. The parent who brought the cars was upset for all the uproar. We almost did not have a PWD the following year because of all the fuss. I have seen this happen many times over the years. That is why you have the intense attention to detail with rules (like the original Pack in question). It is sad. Yes it should be for and about the boys, but there are always the parents who are reliving their childhood through their kid. They sometimes spoil it for the rest.

Don't forget the Veteran Insignia for the unit flag.

Attending a "White Tie Decorations event"? What is the theme or reason for the event? If it were for a Scouting event, I would say yes. For other reasons, I would have to ask why. Is it to show off your "decorations"? I think for a non-BSA or non-Scout themed function, I would stick to the lapel pin. As for the Youth Religious award, no. If you, Dad and Gramps want to all wear your Eagles, find a ECOH or even better, sponsor a table at your Council's Eagle recognition dinner.

I am looking for Far East Council Red & White patches. (Other patches too!) I am changing the focus of my collecting and have many different items that I could trade with. My youngest Son has shown some interest in this area along with Transatlantic Council, so here we go. Please contact me with any information. And yes, I check EBay, but they are usually overpriced. Thank you, YiS, Ron

Horizon, I think that would be a good comprimise for most. The next problem would be in the schools. What do you teach? How would you propose that be handled? There are other problems like the Church sponsored adoption agencies. Forcing them to accept Gay Parents. Most people do not care what others do in their bedroom, it's when you try to force others to not only accept and approve of it, but to promote it. And back to that problem of the Black and Hispanic voters. The age bias does not apply there. Even our new President Obama has come out against Gay Marriage. And with minority populations growing the theory that it will age out doesn't fit.

Dan, "When all else fails, pull out the NAMBLA boogieman". This group that you so easily dismiss as a "boogie man", has been connected to most Gay rights propositions/issues throughout the US (including the UN). So, are you defending their claim to "Civil rights" too? Maybe you should explain to those not in the know what NAMBLA is and what it's goals are? Yes this is a slippery slope.

Horizon, You are correct that recently the "Anti-8" crowd has started to broaden their targets of protest to include some of the other supporters of Prop 8. However, at first, just as it was on this thread, the Mormon Church was singled out. Why? The originator of this thread even seemed to have issues with the Mormons. What gives? As I said before, if it were "the Jews or Muslums", you would never have this. Not PC. The Anti-8 group is tolerant of your views just as long as they agree with them. If not, your the bad guy, and subject to the groups wrath. They say they accept a democratic government, but their actions say otherwise. Where were the riots and protests (as well as the news coverage) when the CA Courts struck down the last Defense of Marriage proposition? I don't recall hearing about any Catholics, Mormons or any other Social Conservatives protesting/rioting in San Francisco's Castro District or West Hollywood. Why not? And your point about being knocked down over time, sadly may be true. Subgroups of the Anti-8 crowd are gaining acceptance, and soon "anything goes" will be acceptable (and legal). Here comes NAMBLA and God only know what else.

Tell me something, Why the outrage over the Mormon's support of Prop 8 and not a word about all the other churches and groups who did the same and more. From what I can tell, the Mormon Church did nothing more than the Catholic Church and dozens of other Churches did. So why the focus on the Mormons? I saw a protest march at the Mormon temple in LA, but no march to a Catholic Cathedral there? And then we have this thread "the whole Mormon thing...". I think if you were to substitute "the Orthodox Jews" for "Mormons", you would have an outrage about being anti-Semite. What gives?

So, is the Mormon "bashing" over yet? When is it the Catholics turn? Are there any plans on protesting their churches too? Has anyone drafted up a list of Churches and other organizations that supported Prop #8? We don't want to forget anyone do we? ;o) Its funny how those so called "tolerant" folks get all rilled up and act not so "tolerant" when you don't agree with them. I guess they are only "tolerant" when you do agree with them. If you read the comments on the web from those on the loosing side, it sounds like people having a temper tantrum. BTW, These are the same people who "protested" when President Reagan died. Sad. I wonder where the GOP is holding their anti-Obama protest(s)?

I agree with CalicoPenn, save the mint patch. You can find a more recent version of the SPL patch (2 1/2 bar w/First Class)on eBay very easily. They where used through the early 70s. After your Son is finished using the Hat Pin, have it framed with the Mint Patch. Those pins are more hard to come by then the patches. They stopped issuing them in the late 40s. What color is the FDL (First Class) emblem on the pin and are the bars enamled or painted? Both items could get quite valuable with time. Best safe guard them. Good Luck!

GNX Guy, giving OGE the benefit of reason, I do not think he thinks any training is worthless. PTC is a great resource and a great opportunity for those able to go. Obviously you did not go there to qualify for a knot. Most scouters are involved in the program for the right reasons (the boys). The point OGE was trying to make is that we seem to be swamped with a bunch of knots that are basically there for the money. Most Scouters go their entire time in the program without any recognition except training awards (no monetary contribution to get) and the occasional honor award (DAM, SB, etc). There is nothing wrong with being able to go to PTC (or be a life member of NESA, etc.), it's just there should not be a need to have a knot for it. If this trend keeps going, rich parents will be able to "buy" their Son's Eagle for them by making a "size-able" contribution to FOS. Just my 2 cents and change. Sorry if I offended anyone. YiS

GW is right on the money, as is Neilup. JASM was 3 and SPL was 2 1/2. JASM went to a round patch (and pin)in the mid 40s and the ASPL appeared in the early 60s(?). The earlier pins (20s and early 30s) the FDL was silver, the later were gold. Some of the enamel bars were dark green (usually the earlier ones), others were a lighter green. During WW2 the enamel was replaced with green paint. The patches reflected the pins. BTW, the position pins back then were awesome compared to what we have today. We presented our Scoutmaster a pin for his hat on his 20th anniversary of being SM. Very cool. I have a small collection that I take to Roundtables and Troop meetings to show the boys (and scouters) how it used to be. Kahits, you can usually find these pins on eBay and on other Scout auction sites.

Lisabob, Most of the COs who are churches (Catholic, LDS, Methodist, and others) are very involved with the units that they sponsor. Many still sponsor multiple types of units (Pack & Troop, sometimes a Crew too)Between those three Churches, they sponsor almost 60 thousand units serving over 1 million youth. The majority of these provide both meeting space as well as leadership. Now I can not vouch for quality or quantity of the above but the units that I have been a part of or seen have a fairly strong relationship with their COs. BTW the above mentioned COs are the largest sponsors in BSA (units & boys). Take away the CO program you would effectively kill the BSA.

Well, this is another way to "thin" the membership just as effectively as allowing openly Gay members. Some of the major COs (ie churches, LDS, Catholic, etc.) would drop out in a second. BSA would be a shadow of it's old self. Comparing the GSUSAs unit structure to the BSA is comparing Apples and Oranges. If you think BSA National policies are too rigid or objectionable, just wait to have even more control closer to a Dictatorship with a GSUSA type of organization. With all of BSA's warts, I'll take it any day over that. But those who like the concept of "Big Brother" would like having the "Party" instruct/enforce it's will on all of the units. Choosing who is the leadership, and I'm sure controlling unit funds would be a great bonus too. Worrying about your equipment would be the least of your problems.

"EAEOOS ILTTROU"? OK, please translate, I must be missing something? I have found a lot of references to the OotF in old camp songs and such, but nothing else. What was this group in the south about Mike?

I have heard of "the Order of the Fork from old summer camp days and I know their is a "spoof Knot" too. Does anyone have any other info on it? Songs? Ceremonies? Memories? There is a member of our District who has supported District, OA and numerous Troop events by cooking and serving fantastic meals. She has been recognized with the official awards, but we want to give her something that applies to her talents directly. This seems to fit the bill. Any Help? Thanks!

This is from another thread from a couple of years ago about the Philmont "felt" Bull worn on the Red wool coat. It was posted by David Wilson. There is reference to what you are asking about. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The following is quoted, without editing or correction of apparent typographical errors, from the website of Tooth of Time Traders (the official Philmont Scout Ranch trading post): QUOTE "The Philmont Black Felt Bull originated in 1944 by Dr. E. K. Fretwell, who was then Chief Scout Executive. It was patterned after the bull found in the tile mosaic located at the downstairs entrance to the Villa Philmonte. In the beginning a first year camper or leader received only the head of the bull to sew over the left pock of the shirt. After another year's participation, one qualified for the body portion and the bull, and with three years, the tail. Eventually the bull was made in one piece, black for men and white for women, and the shirt was changed to a red wool jacket. The white bull was discontinued in the late 1980's." http://www.toothoftimetraders.com/philmont/product.asp?s%5Fid=0&dept%5Fid=3195&pf%5Fid=PAAAAADBFLJAAGAC& END QUOTE It seems clear that the original intent was to recognize "campers or leaders" at Philmont. There is no direct indication of whether staff or participants at the training center are considered "campers or leaders." I am not sure when the white bull for women was introduced, but if it pre-dates backcountry programs including women (corresponding with Exploring becoming coed in 1969), that would indicate the bull to be for women participating in training center related activities. There are various "traditions" associated with "the felt bull," including requirements that one "hike in the backcountry," "climb the Tooth of Time," "climb Baldy," or some variation thereof (note that Baldy was not part of Philmont property in 1944); and, various "traditions" associated with Philmont in general, such as, viewing the sunrise from the Tooth of Time or Baldy. While rather popular, these "traditions" are rooted in folklore, not stemming from any Philmont requirement or program. Also, when I first went to Philmont many years ago, hiking to "the tooth" or any other place at night was discouraged; now, Philmont has a policy against it (for safety reasons). I hope this helps. David B. Wilson 622-D-2 (1979) 612-D-2 (2000) 609-E-1 (2003)

How many units have Veteran Emblems on their unit flags? Packs, Troops, Teams, Crews, Ships, all can use them. What is the oldest emblem you have seen? With 2008 being the 10th anniversary of Venturing, those units who started then, could use the 10 year emblem. But if they were Explorer Posts before, they might want to count that time too.

For the Venturing Crew Advisor who said last year: "One must remember that not all registered members of BSA are Boy Scouts. I currently have registered crew members serving in Iraq and Afghanistan. One of my boys has returned from Iraq 100% disabled. Our Crew has no Troop Flag to put any stars on, the young man didn't die, but come Memorial Day, I'll be thinking alot about him and his sacrifice and the other two crew members serving on active duty presently." Get a Crew Flag anyway. The 10th anniversary of Venturing is this year too.(possible veteran emblem?) YiV Ron

I think BP was speaking more of an "ideal" situation. The UK Scouts did not even go coed in ANY of it's programs (Venture) until 1976 (around the same time our Explorers did). I wonder when they started letting women be more than a support roll and be an actual Scoutmaster? Women did not even have the right to vote when Scouting was started. Scouting was segregated. It was a very different world back then.

I think BP was speaking more of an "ideal" situation. The UK Scouts did not even go coed in ANY of it's programs (Venture) until 1976 (around the same time our Explorers did). I wonder when they started letting women be more than a support roll and be an actual Scoutmaster? Women did not even have the right to vote when Scouting was started. Scouting was segregated. It was a very different world back then.

David, I would define a Scoutmaster as the adult leader of a troop of Boy Scouts. That being said, with what is known about society in the early 1900s, the woman was more than likely the "Organizer" of this troop (or part of a group/early CO). But that's just my opinion. That by itself is still a great accomplishment, not only the creation of a "Scouting" unit, but the foresight to see a program in a foreign country and recognize the value of the program to boys back in the USA. Now, how about that "link" to that web page you cite that you have gotten your info from (wiki?)

David, Can you post a link to this info? I had heard of the Kentucky story, but not that Myra Greeno Bass was a "Scoutmaster", but that that it was the first troop in the US. Just because she may have helped bring scouting to the US (at least a form of it to Kentucky), doesn't mean she was the "Scoutmaster". The odds are not good that that were the case. The early 1900s were not a big time for women leading boys, or being held as a great example for the young men. Women were not allowed to be Scoutmasters in the BSA until the 70s I believe. It is an interesting theory, if true would be a very rare exception in those times.