Abel Magwitch

We agree to disagree? For me, yes. Good day SP.

And a two thumbs up to my fellow Scouter, Basementdweller. His truth is mine as well. We share many of the same situations in our respective councils. What matters most is what goes on at the unit level. Kudos to all who work in the trenches.

I would indeed like to see the thread back. What has happened and what is now coming to light is in fact a very uncomfortable reality. The issue has found its way to the open media and the BSA finds itself in the spot light. It's goes without saying that the BSA decided to make its bed a while back and if now finding it hard to sleep in it. For my comrade SP, yes evil people hurt kids. But at the same time, people who were at the helm in the BSA allegedly decided to cover things up. For many, that was the BSA being an accessory to the crime. I am willing to surmise that the decisions made at the management level were not individual decisions but decided and agreed upon by a larger body of folks at the top of the BSA management. Nobody likes to see the BSA in a bad light. But those who made the poor decisions must be held accountable in order for the BSA to re-gain its integrity. Time for the BSA to come clean. Doing so will substantiate the BSA's commitment to timeless values and strong character. (This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

Oh come now SP, you do know the definition of it don't you? I was only following orders.

SP writes Abel Magwitch wants to make this issue the problem of BSA and Scouting. That's an easy and futile way to ignore a tough problem that has EVIL PEOPLE as the culprits, not Scouting The issue deals with corporate BSA; the paid managers of the corporation. If the allegations are found to be true, then shame on those managing the corporation for making these cowardly decisions, some of which have directly hurt youth as the BSA found out in the Oregon case. I wonder if the Nuremburg excuse I mean defense will be brought into play by some corporate scouters should they find themselves with their feet to the fire? A Los Angeles Times review of 1,600 confidential files dating from 1970 to 1991 has found that Scouting officials frequently urged admitted offenders to quietly resign and helped many cover their tracks Volunteers and employees suspected of abuse were allowed to leave citing bogus reasons such as business demands, "chronic brain dysfunction" and duties at a Shakespeare festival Covering tracks and bogus reasons are not conducive to youth protection, timeless values or moral character, something that the BSA is supposed to stand for.

...I suggest that if the district volunteers were really up to doing their job THERE WOULD BE NO NEED TO EMPLOY A DISTRICT EXECUTIVE!... in order to have district volunteers, you have to have units in the district to serve. that's where a district finds its officers - within the units. Allegedly my district currently has 44 units. personally, I know of over 35 traditional units that have died out in the past 25 years. currently I am only aware of 8 traditional units in my district. This includes packs and troops.

What district committee meetings? Don't have them. What roundtables? Don't have them. Perhaps in Seattle, things are done correctly. Perhaps the Seattle council is strong and has an adequate volunteer staff. But that is not the case in other areas of the country.

Isn't it time for corporate BSA to come clean so it can re-establish its moral integrity instead of working hard to cover things up?

My council is also big on school packs. easy to start, constant influx of new members at the beginning of the school year. In fact, in many school packs, the DE is the Cub master. All the while, many traditional units have been allowed to die.

...So for me it begs the question DO we even need councils or professional scouting anymore with their total mismanagement of all the council resources?... My council has just announced a reorganization of its districts. We will be going from 8 to 3. But here is the kicker - there will be no downsizing of the professional staff. In fact more professionals will be hired. The new districts will have multiple DE's. The city district will have 4 - 5 DE's. The other two 2 - 3. Council has effectively gotten rid of the volunteer district leaders of 5 districts while adding additional pros to the payroll - to better serve us. Funny, but several years back when the new SE came to town, we went from 5 districts to 9 - to better serve us. More pros had to be hired to man the new districts. Membership supposedly grew by leaps and bounds though you never saw the youth. And now after several years with a new SE, we are downsizing to 3 districts but keeping and adding to the professional staff. Simply amazing.

^^^ Now that's funny! ^^^

http://www.columbiamissourian.com/stories/2012/01/16/hispanic-cub-scout-pack-comes-columbia/ Girls are allowed to be Cub Scouts. It seems to depend on the council and the national Hispanic Initiative of the BSA.

> 14 year old CITs are effectively Merit Badge Counselors in many Scout Camps. And I'm talking about CITs that don't know the skills they are teaching SP, you failed to answer the question on why there is an 18 year old requirement to be a merit badge counselor? Do you know? If you do, I would love to hear the answer. If not will you attempt to find out why this rule was adopted or will you simply pick and choose yourself how the rules will be adhered to or not? Do you realize that according to BSA advancement policy that no council, district, unit or individual has the authority to add to or subtract from these rules? I would love to know your rules concerning Eagle service projects. > Election? What election? In my experience district elections (if they are held at all) are ritual exercises that merely ratify the decisions of existing leaders Do you feel that it is ok to continue to have these ritual exercises? Have you done anything to get the rules back on track? I have found that it is these ritual exercises that have led to having a good old boy club in charge(or in my case manipulated by a pro who picks and chooses his volunteer cronies) instead of every units COR being represented in the decisions of who the DC will be or the next Executive board. But I have found it tough to take on the good old boys and my district continues to suffer. You see, more times than not, when the rules arent followed they are abused. Others then inject their own rules. It leads to Scouts having to do more than the requirements when all that is required by the rules is no more and no less. And in the end it is the youth we are supposed to serve who truly lose out. (This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

...Every Scouting position has a lengthy list of responsibilities, more than anyone can do. For myself I've decided that I will pick and choose from among that list the things I am either good at doing, that particularly need to be done or that I would like to do... I guess I should have read your post on the other thread first. You have answered my question.

So it's ok to cherry pick and call it leadership.

commander, command, orders? Those are military terms. Hey SP, I left you some questions on the LFL post. And here FYI,the 2010 annual report for your records. Hope to see the 2011 report soon. http://www.seattlebsa.org/media/10annrpt.pdf

Johnponz in another post feels that the rules should be followed. Others disagreed. So I offer this little discourse. Rules, shmules. Why do we need them? What purpose do they serve? Why is there an 18 year old requirement to be a merit badge counselor? Why cant kids be merit badge counselors? Why do we have to have an election to seat our district committee? Why cant the district director simply appoint the district chairman? Rules I tell ya, do we need them? Should we break them out of convenience? Let's hire 16 year olds at summer camp. Pay them a tiny stipend and let them council merit badges. Let's break the rules. Then the youthful MB counselor decides to circumvent the hard MB requirements resulting in cheap merit badges where the Scouts did not have to do the requirements no more and no less. But 16 year olds are cheap. 18 year old merit badge counselors cost the council too much. Let's break the rules. (And I hear the rebuttals now its how its done at other summer camps or its hard to hire an adequate summer camp staff or it would cost the council too much.) Ah, justification for breaking the rules it costs too much; its too hard; other councils do it. Rules, shmules. Maybe the policy of not being a commissioner while being SM has to do with the quality of the program the boys receive. If you are spread too thin, then who loses out? The boy perhaps? Maybe the boys lost out on a camp experience because their SM / Commissioner had other obligations to other troops. Sorry boys, but we can't do it all, see all these hats I am wearing? There is more to do in Scouting than just being a Scoutmaster. Rules, rules, rules. Lets get rid of some of them. Why write them if they will be systematically disregarded out of convenience? Nah, rules are needed. We wouldnt write them if they werent necessary would we? But some rules are more important than others. The BSA does stand behind some of its rules. These rules will be enforced. The BSA will dismiss members who break these rules. Why? Because the BSA is a private organization and feels it has a moral obligation to enforce these rules. Yes, there are some very important rules. But hey, in the meantime, our membership numbers are falling. Lets create another organization to boost membership. We will quietly disregard our important moral rules. Well keep this program in the dark. Ooops, we got caught. Time to clean up our act. Gotta sweep stuff under the carpet. First, lets dismiss some meddling volunteers or any other volunteer who notices that the emperor has no clothes. They caught us breaking our big rules. Cant have that now can we. This isnt Scooby-Doo where old man Smithers gets caught. And I would have gotten away with it if it werent for those meddling kids. Nope, so far Smitthers has gotten away with it. Rules, policies, procedures. Some we will adhere to, others will be disregarded. It all depends on who is in charge.

Johnponz nails it.

It sounds like what BP is saying is that it really isn't a program at all but just an imaginary numbers game to add to the overall membership in order to generate funds. BP, You aren't implying that this LFL is nothing more than a phantom? Say it isn't so. (by the way BP, I am very fimiliar with the LFL program in my neck of the woods. I am just surprised that SP doesn't know much about the program in his council - a program that made up almost half of his council's overall membership just a few years ago. SP's council LFL counts were far higher than any individual traditional program. With all these LFL members running around, how could SP not know about the LFL program. of course I write with a bit of sarcasm.)(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

Eagle, I agree, the LFL program if administered could be a good program. But its deviance from BSA's stringent moral policies... well you know my stance on that one. And SeattlePioneer, I challenge you to get your councils most recent annual report. Its supposed to be public record yours for the asking at the Scout office. One way to check the health of your council is by its annual membership figures. Your District chair should have a copy as they usually attend the annual council business meeting and or dinner. Better yet, your COR should have a copy if he attends the annual business meeting to cast his vote for the next years' executive board as is his right and duty to do so. The annual report is for the community at large. So I will put the challenge out there to anyone from the Chief Seattle Council if you have the 2011 annual report, what were the membership figures declared? Cubs, Scouts, Venturers, Explorers, LFL.(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

SeattlePioneer, Would you have a copy of your 2011 annual report? I would love to know how many Cubs, Boy Scouts, LFL/Explorers were reported for the year. Thanks

Hi Eagle, So now I know what you have been told. So... As a former pro, what do you know.

I am in agreement with BSA24 that it is the volunteers who deliver the program and not the pros with this exception - summer camp. Summer camp is a program that is delivered by paid folks. The program which consists of maintaining the camp, hiring an adequate and trained staff, ensuring that the camp is prepared with the necessary supplies to implement the program falls on the SE and his employees. And in my council, the pros have failed miserably. The Scouts do not get the program promised to them by the council for the fee they pay. Lack of staff, lack of supplies, a camp in disrepair, a camp where the motorboats haven't been checked to see if they actually run before the beginning of camp, etc. all falls on the SE and his staff. Volunteers do not manage the camps nor do they administer the program in the case of summer camp. And like Basement, my council also had their Scout office renovated. The reason? According to the SE, it was a sh$thole to work in. (his words). Of course I asked him if he had a chance to visit summer camp. Program. It doesn't happen at the Scout office. Boys don't swim at the Scout office when the pool at camp is broken the first day of summer camp. Boy's don't climb at the Scout office when the council fails to hire the staff to run the tower at camp. I could go on, but I won't. I am aware of Basement's situation as mine is similar.(This message has been edited by abel magwitch)

Letters to Scouting Magazine - Saluting in uniform In addition to the official Class A Scout uniform, the BSA also has a Class B uniformofficial Scout pants or shorts with a troop or camp T-shirt. My question regards protocol during flag ceremonies: Should a Scout use the Scout salute while in a Class B uniform or place his right hand over his heart? Christopher Dillon Assistant Scoutmaster, Troop 24 Bloomsburg, Pa. The response from Scouting Magazine: First, when referring to uniforms, Class A and Class B are military terms that are not used in the BSA. The correct Scouting terms for the two versions of the uniform are "official uniform" and "activity uniform." Although less formal, the activity uniform is still considered an official uniform, and therefore it is appropriate for boys to use the Scout salute while wearing it during a flag ceremony. http://www.scoutingmagazine.org/issues/0605/d-lett.html

NJCubScouter, Exploring by itself has seen a 35% decline. The classroom portion has seen a 68% decline bringing the overall LFL program down by 65%. So the answer is both. The membership data can be accessed on the national website under Annual Reports. You can access national annual reports from 1997 2011. The classroom based programs showed the heaviest declines but Exploring also showed some substantial declines as well. The data with its gains and losses is on each annual report. All one has to do is take the time to review it. Nowhere has the membership shown such dramatic growth and declines as the LFL program. From reviewing other council's annual reports, I have found that these fluctuations are just as dramatic on the council level. 2006 LFL had 1,750,767 participants. The program was broken down like this: 172,291 explorers 1,477,850 classroom-based programs 100,626 special needs (not sure what special needs programs are, but I surmise it is part of the classroom programs). 2007 LFL had 1,788,276 participants: 170,294 explorers (-0.8 loss) 1,517,818 classroom-based programs 99,534 special needs 2008 LFL had 1,342,222 participants: 146,564 explorers (-14.3% loss) 1,139,042 classroom-based programs 56,616 special needs In 2009 the membership data was not as detailed as in previous years. It was listed as follows: 2009 121,407 members of Exploring career based programs (-17% loss) 848,688 members of LFLs classroom based programs. This would bring the grand total of LFL to 970,095 2010 LFL had 777,125 participants: 113,062 explorers (-7% loss) 486,982 classroom-based programs 31,972 special needs And finally in 2011, 2011 LFL had 624,142 participants: 112,783 explorers (-.02% loss) 632,091 classroom-based programs 24,377 special needs (This message has been edited by abel magwitch)