BetterWithCheddar

Thanks for the reply, @MattR. I'll definitely consider that route if this winds up being his last year in Cubs. I started Scouts as a Tiger Cub in the early 90s and don't remember it being such a slog. The extra year doesn't help. I wish they would have considered making 4th grade the transition year during the recent program revamp. Instead, we have Lion, Tiger, Wolf, Bear, Webelos, and AOLs - 4 cool animals followed by 2 made-up-sounding words. 😒 If you asked my son to name his two favorite activities, he'd probably tell you 1) playing basketball, and 2) watching YouTube. I'm inclined to indulge him in the one that doesn't involve a digital lobotomy. There are 50 boys in his grade who come out for basketball every year. In 5th grade, they begin sorting by ability into A-, B-, C-, and D-Teams. Talent wise, he's upper middle class, but seems willing to put in the work. If he doesn't make the A-Team in a few years, I'd really like for Scouting to still be there for him.

My son's interest in Cub Scouts in waning. He still likes it, but a few unruly kids in his Den have dampened his enthusiasm. He'll be a Wolf this year and doing the same Pack activities for the 3rd time. He's not even halfway to Boy Scouts (Scouts? ... sorry, I don't know what to call things anymore). I'm going to take a radically different approach to scheduling Den meetings this year and try to line-up field trips to points of interest like our local college basketball team and minor league baseball stadium. Basketball has started ramping up for my son. This was the first year he's participated in summer camps. My wife brought him to a day camp at an athletic training facility and mentioned they kicked out an unruly boy within the first 20 minutes. He apparently got one warning and then was gone. They have a waitlist for their programs, so they didn't need his parents' money. I'm beginning to see the upside to youth sports. 🙂

I'm all for safety, but I fear the BSA is going to start receiving diminishing returns on their efforts. I work at a local bank that has a strong presence in my region. My employer has made some major investments in cybersecurity over the last 10 years, but they rarely discuss their efforts publicly. If our customers knew how much we spent on cybersecurity, they might question whether it's safe to invest their money with us. If you owned a small business (a bar, for example), and 20% of your advertising was "we promise you won't be abused here," who in their right mind would patronize that establishment?

I no longer view Scouting as "inexpensive," but when assessing the program, I consider cost a strength because it still fits in most family budgets. Cub Scouts can be done well for $50/mo. Scouts can be done well for $100/mo. Sure, it adds up fast, but those are reasonable numbers for 2024.

The Eagle Scout brand is still very strong.

^^^ If I could upvote this twice, I would. It's probably the most concise explanation for why families choose youth sports over Scouting. Rather than try to compete with youth sports, Scouting just needs to acknowledge it's fundamentally different and position itself as a compliment or alternative. We might consider making the program more inviting by offering additional day camps or 1-night camping options. I find this preferable to an indoor program (or no program).

@skeptic, I'm pro-Scouting. I'm just trying to provide an objective account of why Scouting seems to be losing the "Battle for Bodies" to youth sports. The YP concerns you mentioned are valid, but if we're being honest, youth sports doesn't carry the same baggage as Scouting. I'm not suggesting Scouting allow alcohol - rather, the youth sports scene is just more conducive to fraternization. Some parents enjoy ordering a drink with dinner or a nightcap at the team hotel. Further, the youth-to-adult ratio is often 1:1. Everyone is responsible for their own child unless special arrangements are made. This simply doesn't work in the woods. A smaller number of adults shouldn't take a group of scouts camping AND consume alcohol. My son is still a Cub, but the thought of taking him and his friends camping for a full weekend sounds exhausting. I'll still do it because I know how valuable that experience can be, but a hotel room sounds like a nice alternative. I still get to spend time outdoors with my son, but I can also hit the gym, log-in to work, and eat properly-cooked food. Can you really blame parents for leaning into that experience? And no, the sportsmanship concerns don't go completely away because coaches have some leeway to make cuts - but it can be an effective tool for reducing distractions. There will always be talented jerks who escape accountability because they are high performers or well-connected. Most club teams will serve as many youths as possible, provided they have enough volunteers, your child is well-behaved, and your check clears. 🙂 I see a lot of value in both programs.

While there are a few delusional folks out there, I think the vast majority of parents sign their kids up for club teams simply because their kids enjoy playing sports. Parents don't mind the added expense and time commitment as long as their child is having fun, making friends, and getting exercise. In many large suburban school districts, kids need to play their primary sport during the club season in order to make their high school varsity team. This is most common with soccer, basketball, and baseball / softball. A kid's skill level is unlikely to keep up with peers if they sit out the club season. That's an extra 2-3 months of practice for the club participants (compounded over 10 years). Usually, the high school coach doesn't require club participation. Rather, when it's time to make the varsity roster, it's obvious who has been putting in the work and who hasn't. I love Scouting. It was the best experience of my youth; however, I can tell my son prefers basketball. I will try to thread the needle as long as we can. However, if you're looking for legitimate reasons why families might prefer travel sports to Scouting, I've got a few: Civic Pride - Today, there is more pride associated with high school sports teams than Scouting. Two years ago, our local high school won a state championship in basketball. The town threw a parade and we still have signage up marking the achievement. My son wants to have an Eagle Court of Honor like his dad, but I think he'd really prefer to ride a fire truck through downtown. Socialization - Youth sports have effectively replaced a lot of bowing and softball leagues for adults. Parents make friends while traveling for youth sports. Unlike Scouting, you can pack a cooler to most events. A colleague of mine did the youth hockey grind for many years, but now that his son is in the Navy, he misses it. Exclusivity - I applaud Scouting for its inclusivity; however, I can tell my son is getting frustrated by the behavior issues of a few Packmates (so much so that it's souring his experience). Club sports try and serve as many youth as possible, but they won't hesitate to cut the trouble-makers loose. Competition - My son is frustrated that everyone gets the badges in Cub Scouts, even though some kids only show up to half the events and others are poorly behaved. Sports force kids out of their comfort zones. We can joke about kids being soft, but I watch my son guard peers who are better than him and it both humbles him and strengthens his resolve. Some competition is good, even at a young age. No Fundraising - Sometimes it's nice just to be able to write a check. Few YP Concerns - Self explanatory.

We are just now gearing up for travel (or "club") basketball in my household, which starts in 3rd grade. I assure you, I'm not delusional. My son will never play pro basketball or receive an athletic scholarship. My only hope for him is that he's able to play varsity basketball in high school. We live in a large suburban school district. There are currently ~50 boys in his grade participating in the high school's youth program. Only 8 will ever get to play varsity basketball. Beginning in 5th grade, the school sorts the kids by ability through the formation of "A", "B", "C", and "D" teams. The boys who make the A-team in 5th grade will be at a huge advantage because they are likely to receive better coaching, face better competition, and play more games than their B thru D-team peers. In order to make the A-team in 5th grade, most kids need to play extra basketball outside of the traditional school season. Our family's participation in off-season basketball teams and camps is entirely driven by my son's interest. If it stops being enjoyable, he's been instructed to let me know so we can find a different activity. This is not the path I would have chosen, but I'm happy to indulge him because he's exercising and making friends.

Your camps have a McDonald's nearby !?!? 😛 I'm jealous. Our favorite council camp is way the heck out there. It's delightful ... until you need something.

Apologies, @AwakeEnergyScouter - I see were referring to internalized suffering that was mentioned in another post, which I have no problem believing is real (I think we can all relate to some degree). I initially read your post to mean suffering by society from the outward projection of masculinity (also real, but debatable IMHO). I tagged you simply because I thought you've added a lot of thoughtful replies and I've enjoyed engaging with you in this thread.

I wonder if work culture has also had an impact on membership declines. Both of my parents had good, steady jobs with the same employer for 30+ years, but they rarely worked over 40 hours per week. Today, my wife and are always within 20 feet of our laptops. We log-in during off hours to get caught up or work ahead. At times, I wonder if this is really necessary since our jobs aren't that great; however, they are good enough where we don't want to lose them. I'm sorry to say the thought of taking kids camping for a full weekend sounds exhausting.

@AwakeEnergyScouter, do you really see a lot of damage and suffering caused by men who cling to traditional gender roles? Can you provide an example? I do believe there is such thing as "toxic masculinity" (where one's narrow focus on perceived masculine attributes becomes a net negative on society or their personal relationships), but men embracing the traditional "provider" role is still largely a good thing. Think of how many of today's problems could be solved by a present father who ensured his children were housed, clothed, and fed. I view the lack of masculinity as the greater pitfall. ** And to be clear, my wife and I have a lot of strengths and interests that follow traditional gender roles and some that don't. Every couple is different and that's OK. This isn't some weird flex on my part. I'm not particularly handy, I drive an old Camry, and would take a margarita over a beer. I do, however, earn enough to pay our bills, save a little for retirement, and occasionally buy a sweet Lego set. 🙂

It's more of the former - I look back fondly on that experience now. During those formative years, I didn't spend much time contemplating the role of Scouting in my life. I just enjoyed being a Boy Scout. My closest friends in middle school and high school were all boys. Around 8th grade, we started mingling with a group of girls at our school, but there was always a separate "boy clique" and "girl clique." I developed a better sense of self-awareness over time. One of the biggest challenges of those early teen years is that our bodies are becoming adult-like, yet we lack the emotional maturity of an adult.

@AwakeEnergyScouter, I appreciate your thoughtful reply. At that age, there wasn't anything that made me want to retreat from girls. In fact, my developing brain was probably pushing me toward them. Scouting gave me an opportunity to turn that part of my brain off for the weekend and enabled me to better absorb my troop experience. I didn't have to worry about body odor, acne, getting my hair just right, or "peacocking" (strutting around with my feathers out to ward off competing males). I don't think I was any less prepared for my adult life because I had been interacting with female peers in school since I was 5. The BSA just gave me a temporary reprieve from the pressures of puberty and allowed me to enjoy being 12.

It's OK for us to be a little different. For all our troubles, the US is still exceptional in many respects. We've gifted the world airplanes, the telephone, the internet, Post-It notes, and sliced bread. Clearly, we're getting a few things right over here. 🙂 I respect that your experience may have been different from mine and believe yours to be valuable too, but most kids in the US already get 8 hours of mixed-gender interaction in school. Many extra-curriculars, aside from athletics, are also integrated. Boys and girls already have ample opportunities to interact. The single-gender path for youth in that difficult pre-teen stage is actually one of the few value propositions that the BSA (SA?) offers. Aside from athletics, where else can they still have that experience?

Interestingly, a fair number of large companies seem to be pivoting away from the loaded DEI term: Under attack, DEI quietly transforms - The Washington Post Anecdotally, I'll mention that I may have hit a breaking point on the HR-speak at work. We were recently instructed to avoid the term "good fit" when describing a potential new hire. You see, "good fit" might imply that we have preconceived notions about what we value in a candidate, including a preferred race, religion, gender, or personality. Instead, we were asked to describe a strong candidate as a "cultural add." Can you imagine losing your job and having to explain in your first interview that you were let go because you used the dreaded "GF" word?

I've been pretty supportive of the recent membership changes, but I gotta say - I have some serious reservations about coed troops. Middle school may have been the 3 worst years of my childhood, but Scouting was my refuge at that time. It was nice to go on outings with the boys in my troop without having to worry about impressing anyone. By high school, I was more self-assured and wouldn't have minded participating in a coed troop, but I do worry that we're denying our boys (and girls) a growth opportunity by integrating them at this stage in their development. The march toward school 2.0 continues.

I'm surprised we don't hear about more issues with the YMCA. Perhaps my BSA training has made me hypersensitive to compromising situations. When taking my son to swim lessons, I skip the family changing area and opt for the men's room where they still have a dedicated wing for parents of young children. The locker room is partitioned for privacy (seriously, it's like a maze), but that also would make it difficult for a staff member or well-meaning bystander to intervene if they saw inappropriate activities. We always try to get in and out as fast as possible (you can shower at home, kid). The Y has been great for our family - youth sports, swim lessons, summer childcare, etc. (all at a reasonable cost), but when you have that many people changing clothes every day in close proximity to one another, you would think the potential for impropriety would be massive.

It looks like this ill-fated program was rolled-out during my 15-year Scouting hiatus between the time I worked at my local council camp in college and when my son was old enough to join Cub Scouts. I'm guessing the aftermath of the Global Financial Crisis put an emphasis on marketable degrees and the BSA (already suffering from membership declines), tried to prop themselves up by attaching themselves to the STEM movement? And people actually voted to turn Scouts into night school? 😂

@fred8033, one of the first Google hits I came across suggested that Girl Scout membership declined from 2.8 million in 2003 to ~1 million in 2021. This would be a point-to point decrease of ~65% over an 18-year span. According to a table I pulled from Wikipedia, BSA membership went from 3.2 million in 2003 to ~1 million in 2021. This would be a point-to point decrease of ~69% over the same period. While some of the BSA's issues have been self-inflicted, I do think the membership challenges are part of a larger societal trend - kids just have a lot more choices these days (and that's OK). The BSA needs to become a leaner and more agile to stay relevant. Local Scouting can still thrive. Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts suffer huge declines in membership | AP News Boy Scouts of America membership controversies - Wikipedia

@jumpingjoj, I'm not too familiar with the bankruptcy process. How exactly did a scout leader get roped into this? Aside from someone getting physically hurt under my charge, this is pretty much my worst nightmare as a scout volunteer. Unless the accused wanted to lawyer-up to clear their name (with a limited success rate and drawing more attention to themselves in the process), their efforts may be better spent elsewhere. We're only given so much time on this Earth - why spend it on an organization that would turn on them so quickly?

To that end, I'd suggest looking at how many scouts have been active up to high school (regardless of rank). If a scout has been in the program for 3-4 years, they've likely 1) enjoyed themselves and 2) absorbed most of the lessons the program offers.

I'm on board with the "vote with your feet" theory. Strong troops will have an incoming new scout patrol every year with a few active parents to offset the natural attrition of kids hitting high school or otherwise aging out of the program. A strong troop can survive a "weak class" of scouts and parents, but can be derailed if they onboard 2 or 3 consecutive weak classes. A low number of incoming Scouts vs. prior years doesn't necessarily translate to a weak class if the scouts are well-behaved and the parents are willing helpers. Rather, the pitfall comes when troops onboard multiple scouts will behavior issues and parents who either don't support the program or whose presence becomes a net negative. How many potentially great Scouts either never made it past Cub Scouts or quit too soon because they had one or two disruptive peers that ruined their experience?

I would say an adult leader meeting or online forum dedicated to "issues and politics" are acceptable places to discuss membership changes, whereas your child's Pinewood Derby or Blue and Gold Banquet are not. Again, I'm generally onboard with the recent membership changes. I'm not suggesting the presence of girls or LGBT youth in Scouting is bad, unwanted, or antithetical to the aims of the organization. Change takes time. The BSA doesn't exactly have a great reputation for change management.