BetterWithCheddar

Thanks, but I'm not sure that really helps. The BSA moniker is no more, yet we still brand our flagship program as "Scouts BSA?" (never mind the fact that "Scouts BSA" wasn't a particularly strong re-brand to begin with).

In defense of those parents, I don't think the BSA (SA?) has done a particularly good job of branding itself in the public sphere, considering those of us closer to the program still struggle. I still do not know how to refer to the classic Scouting program formerly for boys ages 11-18. We used to distinguish between "Cub Scouts" and "Boy Scouts." Then it was "Cub Scouts" and "Scouts BSA." Now, I guess it would be "Cub Scouts" and just "Scouts?" That's confusing because Cub Scouts are also Scouts, are they not?

If I could wave a magic wand, I would: Shorten the Cub Scout program by moving 5th graders to the traditional Scouting program. Webelos then becomes the transition / capstone year after Lions, Tigers, Wolves, and Bears. Yes, Kindergartners probably lack the maturity to fit with the rest of the Cubs, but SA will lose youth to other programs if they don't recruit kids when they begin elementary school. Keep it simple for the Lions and Tigers. Then layer-on more outdoor activities for the Wolves and Bears. Shorten the traditional Scouting program to grades 5-8. Middle school has traditionally served as the "core" Scouting experience anyway. This cuts down on repetitiveness and helps mitigate the YP issues associated with combining children of wide age ranges (or the expectation that older Scouts "babysit" the younger ones). Combine the resources of the OA and Venturing to create a new Senior Scout program that blends elements of cheerful service, comradery, and outdoor adventure. Each district would sponsor a Senior Scout unit (similar to an OA chapter). Senior Scouts who earned the Life Rank with their troops could continue to work on their Eagle rank until age 18. Create a limited set of Senior Scout awards to keep the youth with a high need for achievement engaged. Use this pool of Scouts to help staff council and district events (but not free manual labor).

Growing up, there was always a canoe, kayak, and pedal boat at my parents' cabin. Kids were allowed to use them as they pleased. There were no concerns about buddies or life jackets (you had to be a good swimmer, but we used an honor system). When I attended my first Boy Scout summer camp, I was perturbed by the amount of restrictions placed on rowboat and canoes usage. Today, it still seems like a little much (but from a liability standpoint, I get it). That said, I'm shocked the BSA allows motorized watercrafts on property today. The "bronze gods" on the waterfront staff will scream at kids for not kneeling in canoes and yet those same staffers are allowed to pilot torpedoes.

The numbers get worse when you consider how the US population has grown over time. BSA is currently at ~20% of its 1980 membership, but adjusting for the change in population over the last 45 years, it's really about ~14% of its 1980 membership. 1980: Membership = 4.3 million US Population = 223 million % of Population in BSA = 1.9% 1990 Membership = 4.0 million US Population = 248 million % of Population in BSA = 1.6% 2000: Membership = 3.4 million US Population = 282 million % of Population in BSA = 1.2% 2010: Membership = 2.7 million US Population = 311 million % of Population in BSA = 0.9% 2019: Membership = 2.0 million US Population = 334 million % of Population in BSA = 0.6% 2023: Membership = 0.9 million US Population = 339 million % of Population in BSA = 0.3%

I read this twice and I'm still not really sure what it means.

I struggle mightily with the broader inclusion topic. And please, let me clarify, I've been supportive of the membership changes of the past decade. Further, I value decency above all else. Yet we try so hard to not offend and accommodate everyone (particularly a small number of boys with behavioral issues) that it weakens the program for the boys that have traditionally benefited from it. Then we wonder why membership has dropped from 3 million to 1 million over the last 20 years and we resolve to be even more inclusive.

I've recently been doing some planning for my son's Wolf Den and am finding that I appreciate the streamlined requirements. It will make our Den meetings a little more open-ended and allow me to tailor them to the kids' interests and the activities available in our region. Further, since there is overlap year-over-year, we may dedicate some Pack meetings to addressing requirements for all grades. This should help weaker Packs who lack suitable Den Leaders - now they can lean more heavily on the leaders who have been keeping the program alive. My only gripe (and it's a big one): The program is just too long. 6 years of Cubs is a lot. They should have used the re-vamp to push 5th graders to Scouts BSA and make the 4th Grade Webelos program the capstone / transition year. The kids like identifying with an animal and color every year, but we lose a little branding polish when we switch to "Webelos" and then "AOL."

Speaking of legal issues, this story popped up in multiple news feeds this past week. The boy was on a jet ski and was struck by another jet ski owned by the local scout council and operated by a camp staffer. Very sad. Tennessee parents sue Boy Scouts after death of 10-year-old son (usatoday.com)

We need to re-think the current council camp model and that process should extend beyond "well, we really need to sell this camp so we can put in new flush toilets and a welcome center at our other camp." Since my son joined Cubs a few years ago, I've started to favor the idea of smaller camps that are close to each council's population center(s). They wouldn't require major facilities - just a single multi-purpose office / health lodge / storm shelter. Kids' don't need a lot to be happy. Get them outside and let their imaginations take over. It will be much easier to recruit volunteers to staff weekend programs when they don't have to drive 2 hours to get to camp. Youth participation would likely increase if a mother could drop off her child at Scouts on her way to Target.

Are we really talking about trading a 1,300-acre camp for 8 shower houses?

Thanks for the reply, @MattR. I'll definitely consider that route if this winds up being his last year in Cubs. I started Scouts as a Tiger Cub in the early 90s and don't remember it being such a slog. The extra year doesn't help. I wish they would have considered making 4th grade the transition year during the recent program revamp. Instead, we have Lion, Tiger, Wolf, Bear, Webelos, and AOLs - 4 cool animals followed by 2 made-up-sounding words. 😒 If you asked my son to name his two favorite activities, he'd probably tell you 1) playing basketball, and 2) watching YouTube. I'm inclined to indulge him in the one that doesn't involve a digital lobotomy. There are 50 boys in his grade who come out for basketball every year. In 5th grade, they begin sorting by ability into A-, B-, C-, and D-Teams. Talent wise, he's upper middle class, but seems willing to put in the work. If he doesn't make the A-Team in a few years, I'd really like for Scouting to still be there for him.

My son's interest in Cub Scouts in waning. He still likes it, but a few unruly kids in his Den have dampened his enthusiasm. He'll be a Wolf this year and doing the same Pack activities for the 3rd time. He's not even halfway to Boy Scouts (Scouts? ... sorry, I don't know what to call things anymore). I'm going to take a radically different approach to scheduling Den meetings this year and try to line-up field trips to points of interest like our local college basketball team and minor league baseball stadium. Basketball has started ramping up for my son. This was the first year he's participated in summer camps. My wife brought him to a day camp at an athletic training facility and mentioned they kicked out an unruly boy within the first 20 minutes. He apparently got one warning and then was gone. They have a waitlist for their programs, so they didn't need his parents' money. I'm beginning to see the upside to youth sports. 🙂

I'm all for safety, but I fear the BSA is going to start receiving diminishing returns on their efforts. I work at a local bank that has a strong presence in my region. My employer has made some major investments in cybersecurity over the last 10 years, but they rarely discuss their efforts publicly. If our customers knew how much we spent on cybersecurity, they might question whether it's safe to invest their money with us. If you owned a small business (a bar, for example), and 20% of your advertising was "we promise you won't be abused here," who in their right mind would patronize that establishment?

I no longer view Scouting as "inexpensive," but when assessing the program, I consider cost a strength because it still fits in most family budgets. Cub Scouts can be done well for $50/mo. Scouts can be done well for $100/mo. Sure, it adds up fast, but those are reasonable numbers for 2024.

The Eagle Scout brand is still very strong.

^^^ If I could upvote this twice, I would. It's probably the most concise explanation for why families choose youth sports over Scouting. Rather than try to compete with youth sports, Scouting just needs to acknowledge it's fundamentally different and position itself as a compliment or alternative. We might consider making the program more inviting by offering additional day camps or 1-night camping options. I find this preferable to an indoor program (or no program).

@skeptic, I'm pro-Scouting. I'm just trying to provide an objective account of why Scouting seems to be losing the "Battle for Bodies" to youth sports. The YP concerns you mentioned are valid, but if we're being honest, youth sports doesn't carry the same baggage as Scouting. I'm not suggesting Scouting allow alcohol - rather, the youth sports scene is just more conducive to fraternization. Some parents enjoy ordering a drink with dinner or a nightcap at the team hotel. Further, the youth-to-adult ratio is often 1:1. Everyone is responsible for their own child unless special arrangements are made. This simply doesn't work in the woods. A smaller number of adults shouldn't take a group of scouts camping AND consume alcohol. My son is still a Cub, but the thought of taking him and his friends camping for a full weekend sounds exhausting. I'll still do it because I know how valuable that experience can be, but a hotel room sounds like a nice alternative. I still get to spend time outdoors with my son, but I can also hit the gym, log-in to work, and eat properly-cooked food. Can you really blame parents for leaning into that experience? And no, the sportsmanship concerns don't go completely away because coaches have some leeway to make cuts - but it can be an effective tool for reducing distractions. There will always be talented jerks who escape accountability because they are high performers or well-connected. Most club teams will serve as many youths as possible, provided they have enough volunteers, your child is well-behaved, and your check clears. 🙂 I see a lot of value in both programs.

While there are a few delusional folks out there, I think the vast majority of parents sign their kids up for club teams simply because their kids enjoy playing sports. Parents don't mind the added expense and time commitment as long as their child is having fun, making friends, and getting exercise. In many large suburban school districts, kids need to play their primary sport during the club season in order to make their high school varsity team. This is most common with soccer, basketball, and baseball / softball. A kid's skill level is unlikely to keep up with peers if they sit out the club season. That's an extra 2-3 months of practice for the club participants (compounded over 10 years). Usually, the high school coach doesn't require club participation. Rather, when it's time to make the varsity roster, it's obvious who has been putting in the work and who hasn't. I love Scouting. It was the best experience of my youth; however, I can tell my son prefers basketball. I will try to thread the needle as long as we can. However, if you're looking for legitimate reasons why families might prefer travel sports to Scouting, I've got a few: Civic Pride - Today, there is more pride associated with high school sports teams than Scouting. Two years ago, our local high school won a state championship in basketball. The town threw a parade and we still have signage up marking the achievement. My son wants to have an Eagle Court of Honor like his dad, but I think he'd really prefer to ride a fire truck through downtown. Socialization - Youth sports have effectively replaced a lot of bowing and softball leagues for adults. Parents make friends while traveling for youth sports. Unlike Scouting, you can pack a cooler to most events. A colleague of mine did the youth hockey grind for many years, but now that his son is in the Navy, he misses it. Exclusivity - I applaud Scouting for its inclusivity; however, I can tell my son is getting frustrated by the behavior issues of a few Packmates (so much so that it's souring his experience). Club sports try and serve as many youth as possible, but they won't hesitate to cut the trouble-makers loose. Competition - My son is frustrated that everyone gets the badges in Cub Scouts, even though some kids only show up to half the events and others are poorly behaved. Sports force kids out of their comfort zones. We can joke about kids being soft, but I watch my son guard peers who are better than him and it both humbles him and strengthens his resolve. Some competition is good, even at a young age. No Fundraising - Sometimes it's nice just to be able to write a check. Few YP Concerns - Self explanatory.

We are just now gearing up for travel (or "club") basketball in my household, which starts in 3rd grade. I assure you, I'm not delusional. My son will never play pro basketball or receive an athletic scholarship. My only hope for him is that he's able to play varsity basketball in high school. We live in a large suburban school district. There are currently ~50 boys in his grade participating in the high school's youth program. Only 8 will ever get to play varsity basketball. Beginning in 5th grade, the school sorts the kids by ability through the formation of "A", "B", "C", and "D" teams. The boys who make the A-team in 5th grade will be at a huge advantage because they are likely to receive better coaching, face better competition, and play more games than their B thru D-team peers. In order to make the A-team in 5th grade, most kids need to play extra basketball outside of the traditional school season. Our family's participation in off-season basketball teams and camps is entirely driven by my son's interest. If it stops being enjoyable, he's been instructed to let me know so we can find a different activity. This is not the path I would have chosen, but I'm happy to indulge him because he's exercising and making friends.

Your camps have a McDonald's nearby !?!? 😛 I'm jealous. Our favorite council camp is way the heck out there. It's delightful ... until you need something.

Apologies, @AwakeEnergyScouter - I see were referring to internalized suffering that was mentioned in another post, which I have no problem believing is real (I think we can all relate to some degree). I initially read your post to mean suffering by society from the outward projection of masculinity (also real, but debatable IMHO). I tagged you simply because I thought you've added a lot of thoughtful replies and I've enjoyed engaging with you in this thread.

I wonder if work culture has also had an impact on membership declines. Both of my parents had good, steady jobs with the same employer for 30+ years, but they rarely worked over 40 hours per week. Today, my wife and are always within 20 feet of our laptops. We log-in during off hours to get caught up or work ahead. At times, I wonder if this is really necessary since our jobs aren't that great; however, they are good enough where we don't want to lose them. I'm sorry to say the thought of taking kids camping for a full weekend sounds exhausting.

@AwakeEnergyScouter, do you really see a lot of damage and suffering caused by men who cling to traditional gender roles? Can you provide an example? I do believe there is such thing as "toxic masculinity" (where one's narrow focus on perceived masculine attributes becomes a net negative on society or their personal relationships), but men embracing the traditional "provider" role is still largely a good thing. Think of how many of today's problems could be solved by a present father who ensured his children were housed, clothed, and fed. I view the lack of masculinity as the greater pitfall. ** And to be clear, my wife and I have a lot of strengths and interests that follow traditional gender roles and some that don't. Every couple is different and that's OK. This isn't some weird flex on my part. I'm not particularly handy, I drive an old Camry, and would take a margarita over a beer. I do, however, earn enough to pay our bills, save a little for retirement, and occasionally buy a sweet Lego set. 🙂

It's more of the former - I look back fondly on that experience now. During those formative years, I didn't spend much time contemplating the role of Scouting in my life. I just enjoyed being a Boy Scout. My closest friends in middle school and high school were all boys. Around 8th grade, we started mingling with a group of girls at our school, but there was always a separate "boy clique" and "girl clique." I developed a better sense of self-awareness over time. One of the biggest challenges of those early teen years is that our bodies are becoming adult-like, yet we lack the emotional maturity of an adult.