BetterWithCheddar

I had a pretty traditional Scouting experience that culminated in earning the Eagle Scout award after I had a lot of fun and finally got around to the paperwork. One of my best my friends could be described as a "Paper Eagle." He made it through the program with very little camping and had everything wrapped up by high school so he could focus more on academics. Today, he's a professor at a prestigious university and travels the world to present his research. He is absolutely someone we'd want to represent the program. Scouting just means different things to different people and we all have to be OK with that for the BSA to survive.

Thank you. That was a nice video. I had to look up the membership numbers for myself: BLC membership has decreased from 22,600 in 2017 to 8,000 in 2023 (-65%). MCC membership has decreased from 57,000 in 2017 to 25,200 in 2023 (-56%). National membership has decreased from 2,167,800 in 2017 to 981,600 in 2023 (-65%). So while the MCC has lost fewer members on a relative basis, the BLC's situation appears no worse than what the rest of the country has experienced.

I LOVED Scouting as a youth and always figured I'd be a hands-on parent / leader - attending Roundtables, serving on committees, staffing district events, etc. I'm happy to be a Den Leader as long as my son and his friends are having fun. If he decides to continue with Scouts, I'll support the Troop, but don't have the enthusiasm I once had. I think the change comes down to three things: Scouting is in a death loop and I can feel it. Look no further than this message board. I used to lurk here 10 years ago and it felt like there was double the amount of activity (mods, can you confirm?). As a youth, I met a lot of neat people through Scouting. I always figured I'd see those people on the trail with their own kids, but many have either moved away from my mid-size city or don't have kids in the program. I'm terrified of liability and have no desire to attend overnight events with some of the poorly behaved kids in our Pack (even though most of the kids and families are great). My son loves basketball. Our town has recently won state championships in basketball, baseball, and hockey. These programs are pillars of our community. It's very different than when I was a kid and we played organized sports 1x per week at the YMCA. As for my local council, I know they have their challenges, but I've received sufficient support since re-joining as an adult. I even have a text chain with my DE. He's very responsive and makes me feel valued. I can only imagine how some of you feel when you're not getting ample support from your local professionals.

😬 I was terrified of the waterfront as a young scout because all of the counselors kept screaming at kids for simple things like switching seats in a rowboat or accidentally letting an old oar touch the ground. I'm surprised the BSA even allows motorboats - especially considering there are so many fun man-powered options that kids don't often get to experience (canoes, kayaks, row boats, pedal boats, inflatables, etc.).

I'm a Wolf Den Leader and recently held two successful den meetings: We completed the Air of the Wolf adventure by holding a "Paper Airplane Derby". I taped out a 40-foot "runway" in our meeting area for the kids to launch their planes. They each got 5 sheets of paper and 5 minutes to make some prototypes with their parents. After taking turns testing their planes, they got another 5 minutes to refine their prototypes. Following a second flight test, they got 2 minutes and 2 sheets of paper to make a final model and see who could throw their plane the furthest. It was inexpensive and all the boys seemed engaged. We also completed the Adventures in Coins adventure. I bought inexpensive coin folders off Amazon and gave the kids each 4 rolls of pennies. They had fun opening the coin rolls with their parents and filling up their coin folders with different years and mint marks. It's cold and dark on most weeknights during the school year, so we're often limited by activities that can be conducted at our meeting space in the public library. We also have a pair of boys whose behavior can present a challenge and impacts other kids' experiences. Running den meetings has always been hit or miss. Sometimes I'll put in a lot of effort and come up short; however, these meetings went great. I may repeat them next year once we've completed all of our required Bear adventures. I hope others are able to give them a try.

This is an odd one to me: As I understand it, the former Hiawathaland Council (Michigan's UP) asked to merge with the Bay Lakes Council because they felt they were more similar (culturally) to Northeast Wisconsin than Lower Michigan. So Bay Lakes accommodates, merges OA Lodges, and closes one of its camps. Then 10 years later, the UP says "Haha, just kidding. We're going to stick with Lower Michigan." Is that the gist? Am I missing something?

It was challenging enough to navigate the half-truths we saw in TV ads this cycle. My son also came home and informed me about the playground straw poll. This was probably the last Presidential election where we could avoid the subject. He'll be ready for some table talk in 4 years. I applaud your efforts to search for truth, but fear we may now be living in a "post-fact" America. It's rather difficult to win heated arguments on facts alone. Instead, we should challenge kids to be better persuaders by encouraging empathy, wit, humor, and concise writing

I was a Boy Scout in the late 90s and early 2000s and can only recall a single instance of politics coming up at a Scouting event. An older Scout referred to George W. as "King George" because he had not won the popular vote. It was in the Trading Post at summer camp and we all just went back to eating our ice cream. @skeptic, I think you're approaching the situation correctly by offering a thoughtful reply when prompted but not interjecting your personal views at every turn. I view my obligation as a leader to promote good dialogue, but not necessarily my opinion. My son is still Cub-age, but when the conversations become more nuanced, I plan to start with patience and humility.

I detect a bit of satire here, but also some truth. In my region, it's cold and dark for much of the school year. The Pack calendar ramps up in the Fall, we get outside for maybe 2 glorious Saturdays, then we settle into our routine of meeting 2x per month in the school cafeteria. Even though our council camp is equipped with a few nice, winterized cabins, few parents want to accept the liability of organizing a weekend outing. My son's Wolf Den tripled in size this year due to an influx of "indoor kids." These 2nd graders have tried team sports, realized they were already behind their peers, and opted for a more inclusive activity. They have a limited desire to go outside, but their parents said they can't be on the iPad all the time, so here they are. Most of these kids and their families are kind and decent. I'm glad Scouting exists to keep them active, but it's an odd dynamic. I think the shift to more indoor programming is at least partially guided by member preferences,

I could not agree more. I have yet to attend an overnight event with my 8-year-old Cub Scout. I don't think we'll attend our council's 3-day summer Cub camp either. The thought of being saddled with someone else's kids is overwhelming to me. I struggle to maintain order at Den meetings. 10% of the boys cause 90% of the problems and I don't want to be there when something really bad happens. For my son to get the most out of the program, I know I'll need to take a different approach when he joins a Scout Troop, but as of now - it's not worth the trouble IMHO. I really hate to admit it, but it's true.

Thanks to all who have provided feedback and support over the past 2.5 years as I've returned to Scouting as my son's Den Leader. I really enjoy the comradery of this message board. Happy Thanksgiving!

The fact that there is virtually no recourse for a falsely accused Scouter contributes to the BSA's current doom loop. A person could: A: Accept the conclusions, resign, and hope that's the end of it (it might not be). B: Appeal to the BSA's kangaroo court to clear their good name (with limited success and all while calling more attention to the situation). C; Mount a vigorous (and expensive) legal defense with a slightly higher probability of success (again, while calling more attention to the situation). I'm glad to be a leader as long as my son and his friends are having fun; however, once he's done, I can't see myself continuing to support the program in any way that involves direct contact with youth. For every bad actor, there is probably an equal number of awful families who wouldn't hesitate to jeopardize a volunteer's reputation over a perceived slight. Granted, I believe the vast majority of people in this world are good and decent ... but it only takes one.

This was my first thought. My wife and I see a local attorney every few years to revise our will and POA docs. We do OK professionally, but I'm not sure how many couples our age (~40) could afford basic legal services, much less be able to vigorously defend their reputations in court. A prominent venture capitalist once remarked (I'm paraphrasing): "Single digit millionaires don't have access to the legal system." He funded Hulk Hogan's successful civil suit against a tabloid magazine because he and Hulk Hogan (a single digit millionaire) shared a common enemy in the tabloid. Hulk Hogan, whose net worth had been reduced to "only" a few million after a divorce and other legal issues, could not afford to sue a tabloid without the backing of a billionaire who also had an axe to grind against the same tabloid. Good luck, Mr. Falsely-Accused Scouter.

Although I was a Boy Scout myself, my son is still in Cubs and my perspective these days is more from a Cub parent. We're fortunate to have a good group of parents running our Pack; however, there are many instances where I would go about things differently than other leaders (but settle for good enough). I understand the calculus changes a bit with Scout Troops. For now, the work is getting done and the kids are having fun, getting outside, exercising, socializing, etc. I'm not going nitpick my fellow volunteers. I'm just thankful for the support we do receive.

Respectfully, I feel like that enough parents with average skills could still put on a good program. The biggest problems occur when a small number of average leaders are over-burdened by a high number of drop-off parents and/or poorly behaved kids. I would settle for a culture of Very Good. If you have enough leaders/parents willing to take kids outside or plan a fun unit meeting, there is a good chance that your program can be sustained.

This definitely ranks up there with the top problems, but what are you doing to do? As much as we claim Scouting is a youth-driven program, we all know it's parent-driven. A program is only going to go as far as volunteers are willing to take it. As a Den Leader, I spend lots of invisible hours and dollars (my own money) to help the Pack. And I'm just one guy - we're fortunate to have a good group of parents that help with our program (but it can be exhausting). One of the reasons why travel sports have grown in popularity vs. Scouting is that they are less work for most parents. Sure, they cost 4x as much as Scouting, but I get to just show up and be a dad.

Since this is a Catholic-specific thread, I think it's important to also acknowledge that participation in organized religion has also decreased during the same time period. The number of self-identifying Catholic adults peaked in the US around 2005 at ~81 million. While there has not been a steep decline (there were still ~73 million self-identifying Catholic adults in 2023), church membership has not kept pace with population growth. Since churches have historically been big supporters of Scouting, this may help explain a portion of the membership decline. Fewer families going to church ---> Fewer kids in Scouting Faith Survey | American Catholic Statistics (1965-2021)

My district held its annual Fall Cub Day Camp yesterday. We're fortunate to have a great group of volunteers that put this event together every year. Best I can tell, it's staffed mostly by older adults whose children have long since aged out of the program and whose ties to local units have dissolved. We're also fortunate to have a DE that was an Eagle Scout in this same district and who makes everyone feel like the most important volunteer in the council, even though he himself is the one working long, odd hours for what I'm sure amounts to ~$15/hour. The Fall day camp is a great way to get Cubs outside before the crummy winter weather in our region limits our options. I was even able to piggy-back our monthly Wolf Den meeting onto the event and complete an Orienteering Adventure. The only downside: several activity stations were closed on short notice due to what our DE cited as "recent changes to the national guidelines for the operations of range and target activities." I'm not too familiar with the G2SS, but we were unable to have archery, slingshots, or paper rockets ~ all of which had been offered in previous years and were popular among Cubs and parents. This will hardly be a surprise to many forum members, but it feels like the national organization is making Scouting marginally safer at great expense to the program. Honestly, I was more concerned about someone catching a hook in the eye at the fishing station yesterday than I would have been about launching a homemade paper rocket using an air compressor operated by an adult.

I don't disagree, but most kids get 40+ hours of mixed gender interaction each week through school. I'm not sure a 1-hour, single-gender Scout meeting each week leads to unacceptable social norms. In fact, I think it may be complimentary in that it gives them a reprieve from constant social pressures. I'm not looking to re-hash old arguments. I've been generally supportive of the membership changes from the past decade. Coed Scouting works fine for Cubs and the Senior Scout programs; however, we're denying kids a development opportunity if we don't at least offer them the OPTION of single-gender Scout Troops. Middle school is rough.

My son's Pack held its first Pack Meeting on Tuesday. Officially, we had a kick-off and informational meeting in September, but this was the first one with a true program. We elected to cover the Bobcat Adventure in its entirety since it's required for all grades. In hindsight, this was a terrible idea. It felt like night school. To compound the issue, we had two failing Packs rolled into our own healthy Pack - this brought our total Scout Count from 45 to 85 and our leader count from 8 to 9. My son's Wolf den, which had averaged 6-7 kids during Lions and Tigers, now stands at 20. Mercifully, one of the new parents offered to assist in an unofficial capacity.

Scouts: "We promote conservation." Also Scouts: 'If we sell this camp, we can put in new toilets at our other camp!"

"Cub Scout Pack" vs. "Scout Troop" is the cleanest delineator today, IMHO. When I'm talking with the Cubs, I may say something like "When you're a little older and join a Scout Troop, ..." I'll often refer to the BSA/SA as the "national organization."

Thanks, but I'm not sure that really helps. The BSA moniker is no more, yet we still brand our flagship program as "Scouts BSA?" (never mind the fact that "Scouts BSA" wasn't a particularly strong re-brand to begin with).

In defense of those parents, I don't think the BSA (SA?) has done a particularly good job of branding itself in the public sphere, considering those of us closer to the program still struggle. I still do not know how to refer to the classic Scouting program formerly for boys ages 11-18. We used to distinguish between "Cub Scouts" and "Boy Scouts." Then it was "Cub Scouts" and "Scouts BSA." Now, I guess it would be "Cub Scouts" and just "Scouts?" That's confusing because Cub Scouts are also Scouts, are they not?

If I could wave a magic wand, I would: Shorten the Cub Scout program by moving 5th graders to the traditional Scouting program. Webelos then becomes the transition / capstone year after Lions, Tigers, Wolves, and Bears. Yes, Kindergartners probably lack the maturity to fit with the rest of the Cubs, but SA will lose youth to other programs if they don't recruit kids when they begin elementary school. Keep it simple for the Lions and Tigers. Then layer-on more outdoor activities for the Wolves and Bears. Shorten the traditional Scouting program to grades 5-8. Middle school has traditionally served as the "core" Scouting experience anyway. This cuts down on repetitiveness and helps mitigate the YP issues associated with combining children of wide age ranges (or the expectation that older Scouts "babysit" the younger ones). Combine the resources of the OA and Venturing to create a new Senior Scout program that blends elements of cheerful service, comradery, and outdoor adventure. Each district would sponsor a Senior Scout unit (similar to an OA chapter). Senior Scouts who earned the Life Rank with their troops could continue to work on their Eagle rank until age 18. Create a limited set of Senior Scout awards to keep the youth with a high need for achievement engaged. Use this pool of Scouts to help staff council and district events (but not free manual labor).