BetterWithCheddar

One of the surest signs of membership decline is the lack of Scouters coming to this forum to debate adult square knot insignia. I swear that used to be every other thread around here pre-COVID. 😛

Hello Fellow Scouters: Due mostly to my own lax planning, I'm pulling together plans for tomorrow's Bear den meeting. We'll be working on the "Roaring Laughter" elective adventure. Thankfully, it doesn't look like this one will require too much planning and it's a great activity for an indoor den meeting in the middle of winter. Requirements are as follows: Think about what makes you laugh. Discuss these with your den or family. Practice reading tongue twisters. Play charades with your den or family. Have a "funniest joke contest" with your den or family. Practice "run-ons" with your den or family. Has anyone successfully covered this elective with their den? Any tips for making this a memorable den meeting? - BwC

While I'd never push advancement hard, I think it's still a useful tool for attracting and retaining kids with a high need for achievement. Based on what the OP shared (Scout attends a very competitive high school, but hasn't advanced in 3 years), it sounds like the program might be failing him. Agreed, it doesn't make sense.

In keeping with the theme of the thread, we've had a good experience with youth basketball coaches. Some are great. Some are OK. None have been bad. Most of the youth coaches in the school district are just dads who played high school basketball. They're required to take a 2-hour coaching seminar in the Fall, but that mainly covers youth protection and first aid (not X's and O's). My son's coach this year is actually an Eagle Scout. He speaks fondly of his time in Scouting but hasn't enrolled his own son in Cubs. I guess that begs the question - why isn't Scouting able to sustain the program with former Scouts returning as adult volunteers?

@Eagle94-A1, I hope your experience with youth sports is the exception and not the norm. Anecdotally, I'll share ours has been mainly positive. There has been no directive to attend 100% of practices, games, camps, etc. Rather, it's pretty obvious (to me and to my 3rd grader) which kids puts in the work and which don't. His school team practices 2x per week from November through mid-March. The more-skilled kids also attend private small group training at a local for-profit facility, hit the YMCA with their dad on the weekend, and take an occasional private lesson. A kid's skill level at this age is highly correlated with the amount of extra work they put in outside of the normal practice schedule (and their parents' income 😛). Of my son's two main activities, he's observed that hard work in basketball comes with improved skill, admiration from peers, and cool looking gear, while hard work in Cub Scouts comes with virtually no added benefits because everyone gets the same awards anyway. You might occasionally see for-profit operators put undue pressure on kids and families to commit to a sport, but I bet most high school coaches in large suburban districts don't care because their talent pool is so rich. Any coach worth their salt is going to make reasonable exceptions for their players, but if a kid isn't putting in the work, it will eventually show in their performance. I'm still a big advocate of Scouting. The fact that it's so different from youth sports is (mostly) a good thing. I hope my son sticks with them both, but right now youth basketball is better at meeting his needs and interests.

So, despite a few strong programs in every area, unit programming seems to be lacking. I suggested more council / district events run by professionals and experienced volunteers, but everyone's experience there indicates those are also hit and miss. Is Scouting just not a great program anymore? 🤔 Since we're still in the Scouts vs. Sports thread: I was recently provided a list of possible summer camp dates for my 3rd grader, and I (as a Den Leader) couldn't commit to any of them until basketball camp schedules come out. My son is on the top team, but probably only the 6th or 7th best player in his grade. He risks being bumped to the B-Team next year if organizers don't think we take basketball seriously in the offseason. Would he probably be OK if he missed a week of basketball for Scout Camp? Yes. Is he good enough that he wants to risk it? No. There is a definite FOMO / scarcity element to youth sports.

Local councils and districts should host more events (like day camps or merit badge clinics) that are staffed by professionals and experienced volunteers. Strong units can continue with their existing program, but marginal units can piggy-back off these events to help deliver a more consistent, polished product to the youth they serve. The cost to participate should cover all expenses associated with that day's program (plus a small buffer). Most parents are willing to spend money on a good product. In approximate order of importance, factors influencing a family's participation in Scouting are: child's interest quality of the program family calendar / scare time cost

I think you've accurately captured the theme of the thread. Sure, cost is a factor in most decisions, but it's secondary to the child's interest and the family's limited time. At a primal level, many fathers want to see their sons succeed at sports in hopes of propagating their genetic line. Even when the odds aren't great, they press on. I say this tongue in cheek, but you know there is some truth to it. Agreed. This a big factor. The youth sports industry is motivated by profit to have a good product. Our family has had positive experiences with most camps, clinics, leagues, tournaments, etc.

These are all fair points, @yknot. I do think scarcity of time is still a factor in the scouts vs. sports debate, but I may be overestimating its impact for the reasons you mentioned. My son is pretty keen on basketball, but if he gets dropped from the top team, I think he'll pivot to football where he can at least be on the team and be "one of the guys." I do hope he sticks with Scouting, even if it always takes a backseat to sports, but it's up to him. He's already given it a good try. What would factor into his decision? I assume some combination of: Which carries greater prestige in the school / community? Probably Football. Which increases his chance of getting dates in high school? Probably Football Which looks better on a scholarship application? Probably Scouting (but it's closer than most will admit) Teenage Whims / Randomness

I wouldn't discount the impact youth sports has had on Scouting's decline. There are only so many nights each week a family can devote to kids' activities. I agree there are other issues for Scouting to address, but this is a Scouts vs. Sports thread. You're correct - it's a mistake to conflate making a varsity roster with success just the same as it is to only consider Scouts who earn Eagle a success. However, IF you're in a large suburban school district AND your son desires to play a varsity team sport (besides football), they pretty much have to lock-in around 5th or 6th grade (which can crowd out other activities, including Scouting). This is unusual in my region. A junior playing JV would take a roster spot and playing time from a freshmen or sophomore who is still developing. Coaches use this option sparingly (like when they have a talented senior class and don't want to cut all of the juniors). In my region, lacrosse is still a club sport while hockey usually operates as a co-op (several schools combine to outfit one team). Football is the great equalizer with an unlimited roster, but participation comes with greater health risks. I don't think my wife and I would mind if our son played high school football, but we'd rather first see how far he can go with basketball.

I think you need to account for the fact that BOTH juniors and seniors compete for varsity spots (along with some promising underclassmen). If the roster size for baseball, basketball, and soccer is 25 (that's being generous for baseball and basketball), and the distribution by class is roughly 40% seniors, 40% juniors, and 20% underclassmen, that works out to roughly 10 kids per grade among the upper classes. In our example of 200 boys, assume maybe 1/4 fall into the "hopeful demographic" (this is consistent with what I've seen in youth basketball where about 50 boys come out every year). That works out to only 10 of 50 "hopefuls" (20%) who are able to play a varsity sport. My son only does two activities - Basketball and Cub Scouts. I think he's relieved to go to Cub Scouts sometimes because he doesn't have to worry about competing. And sure, a family can still spend A LOT on Scouting if they desire, but there's no "arm's race" like you see in youth sports. A scout doesn't need to participate in every activity or risk being outpaced by peers.

On the same day you shared this link, I received an email from my local council advertising a spot on its 2026 Philmont contingent for $2,400. 😛 I wonder how much the decline in high school football participation (where roster size is unlimited) has led to parents funneling their kids to other team sports (where roster sizes are limited)? If you Google this, I think you'll find participation hasn't dropped but rather remained stagnant even as the US population has increased. I still think the biggest issue is scarcity, which drives an "arm's race" for parents to get their kid on a high school team. Take a large suburban high school with 1,600 kids - that's 400 kids per class (or roughly 200 of each gender). When they become upperclassmen, how many kids in each class can actually play varsity soccer, basketball, or baseball/softball? 10? That might even be generous, depending on the number of underclassmen pushing for a roster spot. Even an inclusive sport like cross country caps varsity rosters at 7 or 8. You can have 50 boys or girls go out for cross country every year, but most of them will just be participating in a glorified workout club (not that there's anything wrong with kids getting exercise after school).

You hit the nail on the head again. Our unit send some poorly written emails and it drives my wife nuts. But the senders are willing to do the work and they do it pretty well, so you'll never hear me gripe about their communication style. Their efforts have made the Pack's program much stronger, but some people can't get past the amateur emails because they're used to a higher standard at work or through other kids' activities run by a for-profit operator.

A few more suggestions: take responsibility for portions of a family reunion (differentiated from immediate family) assist with a local parks and rec event (doesn't require an ongoing commitment) participate in a school service project (again, doesn't have to be an ongoing commitment) contribute to an online discussion (with parent supervision) write a letter to the editor of the local paper (civic engagement) I hope this Scout is able to earn Eagle, if he desires, but I would think improving his grades should take priority over a merit badge. Not every Scout needs to aim for straight A's, but passing all classes is a fair expectation.

This thread is really hitting the nail on the head. I wish someone with influence would take note. Many of the other youth programs we've been exposed to either have 1) an affiliation with the school district that allows families to get access to facilities and quality instructors at a greatly subsided rate or 2) a for-profit operator that is highly motivated to provide a quality program. My wife (an IT project manager) is appalled by the way our Pack operates (even though it's probably one of the better units in the area). My response is always the same - "We're just a handful of parents doing our best. No one else will step up."