ramanous

We agree the aim is to be Youth Led. In your opinion / experience, under what conditions is it appropriate for adults to step-in? When you step-in, what is the appropriate correction for a Youth Led troop? Certainly adults need to intercede when safety is a concern. I think I'm looking more for the grey areas. For example, do you let the troop meetings consistent of kickball games with occasional youth-led advancement sign-offs? If not, what is an appropriate correction for something of this sort without turning into an Adult Led troop? In the sprite of "mad libs," how would you complete something like "The [PL / SPL / Patrol / Troop / ASM / Parent] is expected to A)______________. If this does not occur, then B)________________" (OR your own version of the statement.) A) B)

Good idea. I guess the general belief is that age 16 or High School is the make or break moment. Sticking around is a good sign that the scouts are enjoying themselves. Making it to First Class is a measure of program success. Any rank after First Class is more about individual ambitions. So, What is the retention rate of 16+ scouts? How many of our Scouts made it to First Class?

To clarify, I am looking for measures of success of the youth from the perspective of a Scouter. For example, one of my least favorite measures is probably "How many Eagle Scouts did we produce during my tenure?" But, alternatively, one that I think might be good is "How many (percentage) of our Scouts made it to First Class?" I'm not really sure why I think that; its just a gut feeling at this point. I do get that the answers to my OP are likely subjective by most standards, though my intent is to figure-out if there are reasonable objective measures. Certainly, too @Skeptics point, the best measure is probably something like "How many of our former adults participate in Scouting as adults, or introduce their kids to Scouting?" But, that's hard to track I like @MattR's response, through its subjective or too general so I might ponder how that could be measurable. For example, retention of scouts after they make [First Class or Eagle or have been SPL]? Or, for that matter, age or rank at which a Scout becomes inactive? I see too many kids that take the "Get Eagle, Get Out" path. I'm just spitballing ideas.

If you we're trying to explain Scout-led to another person, are there specific examples you could point out? The main reason I'm asking is that I'd really like to drill down into objective measures of success (if possible.) If we get too far into the weeds on this subtopic, we might be going off on a tangent from the OP but I'm thinking something like: 1) Scout starts & runs the troop meeting without an adult needing to speak ✅ 2) I've seen that Ladder of Youth Leader poster, which I think would be a great survey for a troop. So one measure might be how far up the ladder the troop has made it based on a group survey

Of course, I doubt there is any perfect measure The tricky thing about "voting with your feet", I think, is that some significant number of scouts will stay in a troop because their friends are there. And, that's a circular issue. So, to some degree, I think that may give some false indications until its too late (multiple families leave at the same time.)

As a Scouter, what outcomes do feel are the best measure of success for a troop? What makes you feel good about the program? I don't mean JTE, but what personally do you strive for?

How does your Key3 address parental suggestions and concerns, especally those brought up at parent / TLC meetings, that are at odds with the Key3 methods? Will they take the time to discuss the matter(s) with parents? Or, are the parent meetings basically presentations?

TLC: Troop Leadership Committee - the adult committee that oversees the program consisting of the Chair, Treasurer, Secretary and various other positions. Or, the adults that sit around a table occasionally chatting about the scout program. I think when I was in scouts the TLC was the term used for the PLC now, but that was a long time ago. Who sets the PLC targets? JTE and/or troop specific targets, I assume.

I'm an Eagle from a troop that did practice the patrol method, so I get it but the other parents don't really understand. The involved parents see the problem, but so far I haven't been able to find a succinct, convincing way to explain why the patrol method is the solution; coupled with the fact that the SM & CC have the podium. The response from other parents is usually something like, "OK, but what if we did this other thing" I've pointed them to the aims & method; quoted Baden-Powell; tried to explain how a SPL learns to lead by being a PL. One thing I haven't gotten across is that the PL learns from practicing, especially at the outings. Maybe I need a patrol method brief... here what it is, and why it works (and other "methods" don't.) However, I don't think it matters even if the concerned parents demanded change. SM has dug his claws in & the CC supports him. Most of the parents aren't engaged, so I expect don't care & would probably get upset at the rabble-rousers. The primary reason we're in this troop is that my son's friends are in it. That's making in tough to leave, but I think we've got to go. "Patrols make a Troop" is a great line (in your other post).

Yes, that sounds much more like I would expect. Does the PLC send their "annual plan" directly to the TLC for review or does the SM intercede? Does the TLC follow a formal agenda?

Forking off this post about parent communications I've read the Troop Committee Guidebook, so I know whats supposed to happen... In practice... what methods and level of information detail does your SM and TLC / Scouter Reserves discuss? What responsibilities does your TLC have, especially in how it affects troop plans and implementation? For context in our particular case, the SM tells the TLC about the status of a few upcoming events, the treasure reports financial status, and the meeting is done. Several of the active, trained parents are frustrated they are basically sidelined at the TLC meetings, while the SM complains about lack of parental involvement. EDIT: TL;DNR: What signs should a parent look for that the troop has healthy culture? I realized after I hit submit that some of you might ask if this is about the youth or the parent. And, is this a case of parents trying to run the troop (rather than the youth.) There is more going on than described above. I am trying to understand a specific matter regarding troop culture. I've further edited to be more concise

So I think one suggestion you're making is to let the patrols self-organize naturally as much as possible? We actually have the opposite problem than you, which is our SM refuses to use the patrol method in favor of the SPL running the troop directly (the PLs have no responsibility.) He's been a scouter for a long time, including woodbadge, so its confounding to me (I asked him privately to explain it; that was big mistake.) I'm speculating the Key3 want the troop to be an Eagle Scout factory so they see PL, SPL, etc as just requirements for rank advancement.

That's great to hear and I appreciate your observations! Can my family join your troop😉? Do you have any advice regarding how to explain the patrol method and its benefits to both adults and scouts? I've actually found a reasonably close troop that does implement the patrol method. I hate the thought of transferring my boy to a new troop but we're basically a SM lead troop as the SPLs struggle to control the scouts. Unfortunately, I've come to the conclusion that the SM is fine with this (politically he is not in any danger of being replaced) so I really don't think it matters what I say at this point. But, I'd appreciate your thoughts anyway.

I'm sure thats true, though some councils are going to be more capable than others for various reasons

Glad to see such things, too bad its not virtual. BSA really needs to include neurodiverity in its adult training, especailly since scouts seems to draw ND. So many neurotypicals just don't get it.