SiouxRanger

And these are just comments, Eagle, summer camp staff (2x), Philmont Ranger (4x), Philmont Trek Advisor (4x)… Scouts headed for Philmont treks needed NO training-they are just too resilient at that age. That being said, there might be a scout on the fringe of fit-that issue needs attention. "Loops" are by far the most logistically feasible. Do loops. Not efficient at all. Carefully plan food, carefully package food into 2 or 4 person portions, just like Philmont has done for decades. (On the Ranger Staff at Philmont some decades ago, I was told by the head of Philmont's camping commissary that Philmont was the second largest user of dehydrated food behind only the U.S. Army. And what works for the U.S. Army, and Philmont should at least be your starting point. And that is not to mention stoves, pots, pans, etc. Is every scout bringing a stove, fuel, pots and pans? Not clear from the post. At Philmont, a single stove, fuel bottle or two (be prepared), and a single set of pots serves a crew of 12, and drastically lowers the weight everyone carries. If you have not read "The Complete Walker" by Colin Fletcher, then you have No business planning anything backpacking. (I have all 4 versions and have read all of them.) Colin cut half the handle off his toothbrush, and the labels off his underwear. To save weight. ON TO OTHER RELEVANT COMMENTS: A "backpacking troop" has made a commitment to have minimal and lightweight gear. This is EXPENSIVE. My one person Big Agnes Copper Spur UL 1 tent cost $326. At a discount of about $100. Cut over a pound and a half off my prior tent, a North Face Canyonlands (which I loved). The Copper Spur about 1 lb 8 ounces. My Marmot down sleeping bag, 900 down, cut about a pound and a half off my prior bag, but cost about $400. All of my unit's stoves and fuel bottles I own. The unit uses them for free. I simply want to KNOW how those stoves have been used, and I can only do that if I own them, and maintain them. For two treks at Philmont, 2 MSR Dragonfly stoves, repair kits, fuel bottles, about $540. MSR stoves-I only use and recommend the Dragonfly model. Immeasurably more stable than all the other MSR models. More costly. So, you "blow up" dinner because you have an unstable stove, having saved $20 on the stove purchase. "Hello to Hunger." (In was given an MSR Whisperlite stove once-upon a brief test, I immediately put it on the trash heap.) There is some group, name escapes me, motto was something along the lines of "BE PREPARED." I own all the water purifier systems for my troop for the same reason. And water purifiers are much more susceptible to failure than stoves. BUT, a failed water purifier will make you and the whole crew sick, (maybe deathly so) whereas a failed stove only provides cold macaroni and cheese. And, at least for use at Philmont, the commercially available water purifier systems are highly deficient. I designed my own system and it worked fine. If you want further information on that, just post here asking. I guess, this is enough for now. If you have any other questions, just post.

Oh no! I wrote a whole book, "My Circling Hiking Life." Always ended up where I started…

So, there was this District Executive (male) who was rather "rough around the edges" who came to put on a "Boy Talk" at our Pack's and Troop's feeder school ( with a female District Executive who was, is, and remains (after 30 years) the most impressive professional scouter I have ever met. He always seemed a bit short on sincerity-a bit cocky-so I was not too impressed, but, for some reason, I attended the Boy Talk (now, "Everyone Talk?"). And he said: "Scouting is the only youth outdoor program (meaning "sports") 'Where everyone can play all of the time.'" And that struck me for its wisdom. Sports, driven by coaches seeking records (forgive my generalizing, as I have personal experience, twice, where coaches played every team member and still won championships), but, in my experience, "winning teams" are the one of a dozen or two teams in a league, meaning that the bulk of the participants experience the sense of loss. I sat many games on the bench, feeling pretty worthless, having endured all the "wind sprints," and training. Benched along with many others. (And, I SHOULD have been benched, as I was pretty lame, well really worthless.) But then again, no one spent a minute coaching me. (And some few years later, I set an endurance record that may still stand to this day, having been previously written off.) The point is that a youth can participate in the Scouting program-their "competition" is essentially their own drive. And some "select out" from the advancement regime, enjoying campouts and camaraderie, others drive through to Eagle. And so, the joy and memories of "winning teams" is well-earned, and well-deserved, the purpose of a youth-centered organization is to encourage and uplift the masses. One star quarterback does not uplift America. (OK, Tom Brady, but even he is a mere exciting spark in what needs to be a glacial move to change society.) 20,000 youth finding encouragement does move the needle. Two million moves the needle even more.

Not sure where this fits, if anywhere, in this topic. In my day, just post the last glaciation, patrol leaders and assistant patrol leaders would routinely sign off on skill requirements from Tenderfoot to First Class. Adults also signed off, but at that usually on campouts. And the patrols in my troop had weekly patrol meetings at the patrol leader's house. We practiced scout skills. None of that now happens in my sons' troop. Troop meetings only, no, that is, NO patrol meetings. Hmmm. And having attended nearly every troop meeting and entire campout weekends with my several kids, over 20+ years, in my day, the patrol leaders and assistant patrol leaders actually knew their skills and were competent to make the decision that a scout had mastered (or at least learned the skill to an acceptable degree) a skill and the patrol leader/assistant patrol leader were knowledgeable enough in that skill themselves to be trusted to sign off on a skill for a younger scout. And in my day, long before the mammoths had vanished, we had folding, pocket-sized cards for each rank. Printed on heavy white card stock. A card for each rank, with all that rank's requirements, with a little line where an authorized person could initial that we had completed that requirement. These little white cards were similar in size to the current merit badge "blue card." Some folded in half, some in three parts for the more senior ranks, having more requirements. I never went anywhere without my white card for the next rank I was working on. The beauty of it was that if I came a across a situation where I could demonstrate a needed skill, I had the card-the record- where I could get someone's attention, demonstrate that skill, get signed off, immediately and move on. (There are the concepts, "praise in public-criticize in private," and "reward immediately upon performance.") The advancement white cards did that. And for years, when my sons joined their troop, I laboriously re-created those white cards for them and for all the scouts in the troop. Printed them, cut them to size, creased the fold lines, and wondered "Just why aren't these now available?" (Handbooks, where advancement is now recorded-more profitable???) Scouts, in my observational experience, just don't bother to take their handbooks anywhere-even to troop meetings. And the handbooks just seem to fall apart in short order.

But I wonder of the participants, sports or Philmont Trek, which 12 days are remembered more, 30 years on?

"Succeeds" not "replaces." An important distinction. When Thomas Jefferson succeeded Franklin in 1785, French Foreign Minister Vergennes asked: “It is you who replace Dr. Franklin?” Jefferson replied, “No one can replace him, Sir; I am only his successor.”

Back in my day the Philmont Ranger Marathon was from "the northern most camp to the southern most camp," being Dan Beard to the Kit Carson Museum at Rayado. Carson Meadows camp did not exist. A little over 42 miles. Carrying a 30 pound pack, more or less (water load varies during the run as consumed and refilled). Pretty much meaning carrying a "Ranger Pack," which is what a Ranger would carry taking a crew onto the trail for two days. It's lighter than the pack a scout or adult would carry. (Insider info: It's why Rangers always look so relaxed on the trail-don't get short-winded or sweat even in Class A's-they aren't carrying quite that much, well, and of course, they are 20 or so and acclimatized to the altitude.) To my knowledge, the record is under 12 hours.

The of history of Eagle merit badge requirements is rather vague my memory, having earned Eagle about 1965. At my time there were Eagle required merit badges. The 3 Citizenships, Swimming, Life Saving, Camping, First Aid, Personal Fitness, maybe Safety, Pioneering, and Soil And Water Conservation (I earned Soil…and NEVER would have if it weren't required.) I earned all of those. And I earned Bird Study. There was no formal Eagle Project in my day, but apparently that was instituted a few short years thereafter. We did have a service requirement, but I cannot remember what I did. The recent merit badge requirement focus, last 10 or 20 years, or so, on paper-work intensive merit badges, or adventure focused merit badges with what seems like ever increasing paper work requirements, appears to me to me to stifle the adventure side of things. As a Scouting fossil, I find it unfathomable that one can earn Eagle and not earn Swimming and Life Saving merit badges. Camping, cooking, pioneering, first aid, perhaps safety should also be required. I have been the lead on a number of Cub Scout weekends sponsored by the District, and I recruited Eagle Scouts as "Den Leaders" for the Cub Scout patrols. Maybe 8 cub patrols camping for one night, with their parents. Not a single Eagle Scout could build a fire. In my day, as Second Class scouts, we could set up heavy canvas tents in the dark, tying all the knots in the dark-by feel. (Flashlights back then were garbage; batteries no better fading quickly in the cold.) We made our own tent pegs with a hatchet. These are much less "life skills" as confidence builders. Granted, I think in my Scouting youth days, there was more focus on scouting skills, than interpersonal relationship issues. And the shift in Scouting toward greater awareness of interpersonal relationship issues is all for the good in my opinion, to a degree. The balance, in my humble opinion has shifted too far from outdoor skills (and that means outdoor activities are much less emphasized and the "adventure" of Scouting is being lost). Scouting needs to teach its principles and instill its lessons in the amphitheater of Nature and not in a classroom.

This whole topic is an Elbonian Bog. I doubt that there will ever be any clear or satisfactory answers to anyone on either side of the discussion.

Who cares? Go to the local bait shop, get a dozen nightcrawlers, take them to "training." Make the night crawlers sit through the entire training program. CAUTION: open the lid so they can hear. (No bathroom breaks.) Present them to the untrained adults at the next troop meeting(s) advising the untrained adults present that their contribution to the education of their children is equivalent to that of the "trained" nightcrawlers. There is an anecdote of President Lincoln, in the presence of some Senator, was "blacking (polishing his boots.) The Senator, watching Lincoln polishing his own boots, remarked, "President Lincoln, you polish your own boots?" (Thinking, how demeaning for the President of the United States to have to polish his own boots. (Has he not a servant?)) Lincoln replied, "Yes, Senator, I polish my own boots. Whose boots do you polish?" Translation: If parent does not parent their own child, someone else will do it-and just who will that be? (And why would a responsible parent leave such an important task to CHANCE?) Ask parents if they have the wits of a nightcrawler…and if not, do they have any nightcrawlers they'd recommend to take over care of their children… Leadership is not about shaming parents regarding their responsibilities. But about drawing parents' attention to the good they can do to raise, educate, their children. Somewhere, in my personal notes, as my last child attained age and moved out, I wrote, "My time of pouring me into you is over." And it has been so. The window for a parent to inculcate the parent's knowledge, ethics, principles, ethos, traditions, family history, etc…, ends much more quickly than one can imagine. I've never let my unit pay for anything relating to my participation as an adult. I am there for my children and as an adult leader for all the other Scouts. It is my contribution for my community. I purchased top quality gear for our Philmont Treks all at my expense, and I own it, and most importantly, I have custody of it-I wanted to KNOW the status of that gear at all times. A gear failure on the trail is a huge issue. Even at that, $400 total, our crews had no gear issues. There is this concept, some make it their religion, Be Prepared.

The SE is a paid employee. Yep. And paid well. The COR's care not a whit. COR's are entitled to attend the Council ANNUAL meeting, but not the regular board meetings, which years ago, were held monthly, but now, apparently now only held quarterly (all to the dimunituon of the COR's level of control. Attacks on the SE, like getting the SE fired, well, that triggers HUGE pushback. Area and Region level folks rise up. SE's are paid huge amounts. And those at Area and Region levels,. who are paid even more, stand up and protect. I know these things. And so, to amalgamate a voting winning body of COR's to unseat a SE? Good luck .(You will be hated,…) Yet, I have done these things. And, the price of doing so, is dear. And I am- Cincinnatus

What does the community know of the Philmont Ranger Marathon, Dan Beard Camp to Kit Carson Museum at Rayado (earlier, 1970's), (well, and shorter routes} to Abreu or Kit Carson Meadows.

I think that there is some reference in the congressional charter prohibiting military marching, or some such.

Absolutely. I'm just a kid at 70, but you are absolutely right. The principles of Scouting have been no hindrance but only benefit in my life.

All the upvotes should be attributed to @RememberShiff. For me, at least, and from your upvotes, I recognize that he/she? has clearly spent many hours "behind the scenes" ferreting out really interesting and useful (not to mention uplifting insights in times not always so uplifting), all to my (and perhaps your) enlightenment of really neat things carrying the movement forward. Maybe even arcane. Where does @RememberSchifffind this stuff? A magician never reveals his/her secrets.

Maybe just a moment to take a break in the discussion and upvote or downvote @RememberSchiff for his diligent and faithful monitoring of this site, and all the delightful and informative Scouting news and insights he brings to us. "Diligent" is how I think of his effort. (AND, moderators, all upvotes should be attributed to @RememberSchiffand downvotes attributed to me.) Thanks all.

I do not understand the concept that "the premise plays in both directions." National lost the Oregon case. Filed bankruptcy anticipating 8,000± claims. >80,000+ claims were filed. (Now I don't for a moment believe that 80,000+ claims is anywhere close to an accurate measure of the actual claims as the bankruptcy claims process appears to me to horribly bungled.) But, National believes 8,000+ and the bankruptcy proceeding is 80,000+. So, nowhere do either of those figures reduce to zero. That is, even National agrees that there are valid outstanding claims. That is not zero.

Thanks for the reference to "IF." Some professional from Milwaukee, I believe, unknown by name to me, in the early 1970's would send a box of Scout Mirrors to Philmont to be distributed to the Philmont Rangers (at least, and maybe other groups and classes of staff-I was a Ranger) which had a copy of The Man In the Glass (now Mirror, apparently) on the back. A remarkable contribution and a treasured possession. The Scout Motto: "Be Prepared." What more concise summary of life can be made? If you are "caught off-guard" you were not "Prepared." End of discussion. An "F." Essentially, it is a zero defect standard. And that is a harsh standard. Most of the world does not attempt to meet that standard. Buy a car-99% work fine, 1% recalled. Not so, Be Prepared. There are no recalls. But, if one shoots for an "A," you might get an A, shoot for an A+ of A++ and an A will likely be. Shoot for a B, expect a C and shoot to pass, a C, expect a D or F. The result of failing to exert maximum effort is usually mediocre. Against the Be Prepared's zero defect standard, one has to take measure of the typical human's failure to be perfect. We all make mistakes. Large or small. Serious or trivial. Time passes, and one has to reconcile one's reaction to their mistakes. Learning from one's mistakes is a huge step in maturing. However, some never learn. "Experience is a hard teacher, but a fool will learn from no other." And, there is this other notion that one does not learn from successes. "Gee, that went great, I''ll put that in my pocket." (Nothing learned.) But when things went poorly. Us humans tend to study those. "Why did that go wrong?" "What do I need to change?" (in modern parlance, "tweak.") And we learn, tweak the plan, and get better results the next time around. These lessons need to passed on to scouts, so they feel comfortable with their shortcomings and learn that all is not lost, that every life has another inning to improve.

There is some merit to the sentiment that, “All’s well that ends well.” A scout whose effort on a particular requirement was not as hearty as they could have done or should have done, and that they have recognized their shortcoming, and used that as a springboard to improve or perfect their future efforts, toward their future scout advancement or later as an adult scout mentor… Well, the Scouting program thereby produced a responsible adult. Meeting the program’s goal. And, everyone follows a Scouting Trail personal to themselves. Unit leadership, summer camp staff, merit badge counselors, are all of variable quality, intensity, knowledge, interest, and incompetence, indifference… Some youth tread a near perfect path (I’ve known many brilliant scouts), others struggle and falter but get there (I’ve known many of those also-I’m in that class). Those who intentionally made a weak effort, and revel in having “gotten away with it,” well, the real world tends to let them know it in one fashion or another. And then there are the early short-comers who flourished. I class myself among them. It all gets back to the poem, “The Man In The Mirror.”

PLEASE POST COPIES OF LETTERS FROM THE BSA IV FILES DIRECTING ANYONE TO CONTACT LAW ENFORCEMENT. Or admit you are just an apologist for a failed program that damaged children.

I AM NEVER DISINGENOUS. I am an Eagle and a Philmont Ranger. And those two status' are more important to me than any other accomplishments (but one which would identify me.). And in my world, my veracity is unquestioned. But you, and the forum here are at liberty to form their own opinions. The IV files I have read, about 40 of 7,000 or so DO contain newspaper articles about perpetrators and police reports. And conviction reports. BUT NOT A SINGLE LETTER FROM BSA NATIONAL OR LOCAL COUNCIL, not one, to any law enforcement agency reporting suspected abuse. Not one. Nor a single letter from National BSA or a council to anyone advising them to contact local law enforcement. (All which says, let's just ride low below the radar-it may all go away."} And if you know of any… POST THEM. Perhaps you've read other IV files than I have.

Not sure I understand the significance of "being a mandatory reporter." I see Tom smack Bill with a baseball bat, I'd report it, even if not a "mandatory reporter." I hear/see AAA abuse ccc, I'd report that too, mandatory reporter or not. Are we standing on technicalities in the protection of children??? When in doubt, REPORT. Raise the alarm. Raising a false alarm, you are "The Boy Who Cried Wolf." Fail to raise the alarm, well, abuse.

Well, from National's BSA files, the council would receive an incident report, send it to National (now what we'd call "snail mail,") get a reply, AND THEN the volunteer's registration would be revoked, (or perhaps suspended pending further information). But this all begs the question, just what level of confidentiality did you hold in the hierarchy? Were you even privy to this level of mess? Well, from National's BSA files, the council would receive an incident report, send it to National (now what we'd call "snail mail,") get a reply, AND THEN the volunteer's registration would be revoked, (or perhaps suspended pending further information). But this all begs the question, just what level of confidentiality did you hold in the hierarchy? Were you even privy to this level of mess?

Well, from National's BSA files, the council would receive an incident report, send it to National (now what we'd call "snail mail,") get a reply, AND THEN the volunteer's registration would be revoked, (or perhaps suspended pending further information). But this all begs the question, just what level of confidentiality did yen ou hold in the hierarchy? Were you even privy to this level of mess? Well, from National's BSA files, the council would receive an incident report, send it to National (now what we'd call "snail mail,") get a reply, AND THEN the volunteer's registration would be revoked, (or perhaps suspended pending further information). But this all begs the question, just what level of confidentiality did yen ou hold in the hierarchy? Were you even privy to this level of mess?

Haven' read any indication of law enforcement notification of abuse incidents by local councils or NATIONAL BSA in National's Illegible Volunteer files I've read. Please post all such records from National's Ineligible Volunteer files of which you are aware. Thanks so much.