SiouxRanger

I agree with you. Public sentiment will likely be the controlling power which determines the future of Scouting. I was just trying to lay out the bare legal mechanism. If control of the intellectual proper ty is lost, the Movement has no handbooks, patches, training materials, etc... One cannot download a .pdf of the Guide to Safe Scouting if the "lay" owner does not make it available. All I am pointing out is that if control of the intellectual property escapes the Movement, things will get even more complicated. And I also agree that the public has little appreciation for the finer points of scouting in its many forms. If a scout shows up at the front door selling popcorn, well, scouting must be fine, and if no scout appears ever again, they may not be missed.

Well, intellectual property rights are no different in legal concept than owning a building or Philmont. In a Ch 7 liquidation, all would be sold, and the proceeds distributed to creditors Those assets will not simply pass down by some process to the LC's. The LC's are separate legal corporations. The LC's might pool their assets and purchase National's intellectual property rights, but it will not be a gift to them. The new owner could simply discontinue publication of the Scout Handbook. If I buy a car, I don't have to drive it. The inventory of Scout Handbooks already published and on the market would remain, until consumed, and then there would be no more. I don't know what the likelihood is that someone would buy those rights and do nothing with them, but my point is that control might be lost to an entity not holding the same beliefs as those in the Movement.

Understood and agreed.

A big consideration is whether National survives and controls its intellectual property. If National is liquidated, depending on who purchases National's intellectual property, there may be no Scout Handbooks published in the future until they come into the public domain. That could be a couple of decades. Someone seeking to continue a Scouting program in the absence of National will be purchasing Scout Handbooks from eBay. And rank patches and medals. And, whomever operates the unit will not have any insurance (they may not have any now). And they will need to make arrangements for meeting space. There will be no training provided unless volunteers continue to carry the torch, use training materials last available before National's collapse as supplemented by them. Ad hoc and grassroots. That is where all will be, unless whomever acquires National's intellectual property desires to continue on.

And how are actions taken by a Boy Scout Council and published in more than two dozen newspapers, inappropriate here? Particularly considering the subject matter herein discussed at length as the cause of National's bankruptcy.

Ever had an adult scouter, publicly thrown out of scouting for political reasons, (and later reinstated) come up to you at a camporee at a Council camp and say to you: "My son told me he plans to stay close to me this weekend so that no one from the Council will show up and throw me out of camp-my son thought that they wouldn't do that if he was nearby." I have heard that. So, you wield the pen-strike from my posts that which seems "over the top." Please let me know what is exaggeration.

Hardly hyperbole. For $100, I can ship a copy of the records. Ever been publicly accused as a child abuser in YOUR hometown by no less than that Beacon of Purity, the Boy Scouts of America? Because you raised the issue that the Council was bankrupt? A Council which attempted murder, but had to settle for rape, when the allegations were totally unfounded? My friends did. I know these things to be true. And perhaps, you might consider thinking before pouncing.

You likely do not know as much about this as me, and you have been spared. Nowhere near the level of trauma experienced by sexual abuse survivors, but I speak almost daily with one of my friends who experienced the "shunning" procedure of National.

Which raises the question: "Does National have any idea what 'principles' are?' Starting with, "Trustworthy..."

Hyperbolic, perhaps. But to those DAMNED by National it is not. Their reputations have been damaged in their hometowns, communities, churches... I know several scouters whose faithful longevity and recognition and awards far and away exceed those of any others I know, were so abused by National.

And so WHY would National drape itself in the American Flag, yet DENY the fundamental principles of which that Flag symbolizes?

I know that the Bill of Right does not apply. But that is not what BSA SELLS. "We are good and decent folks, Americans, God and Country, Flag, principles..." BUT if you do not play by OUR rules, WE WILL CRUSH YOU. And National will. I know these things to be true.

A Death Warrant by any other name... The BSA has a Death Warrant process.

Significant donors in my council have walked away from making any donations.

"Fire me?" (The very, very short answer is YES, National can "FIRE YOU." And it has fired volunteers for non-sexual abuse reasons (political), fired units, and sanctioned councils.) I came across your post while looking for something else. But I have returned to respond-as I must. My conscience will not permit me to pass by your post without comment. Everyone should know the things that I know. "But what I do have are a very particular set of skills; skills I have acquired over a very long career." --Liam Neeson playing Bryan Mills in Taken. In my case, substitute "knowledge" for "skills." And then you have it. [What follows is from my personal knowledge of the treatment by National, Region, Area and local council of several of my long-term, highly distinguished in Scouting, friends. I know these things to be true.] [Seat belts, please, this ride is violent.] There is a document published by National entitled "Standards of Membership and Leadership." It is a restricted document-distribution being limited to National staff, council scout executives, and select senior council staff who have a "need-to-know." I believe, though could be wrong, that National concealed even the existence of this document for decades, though there is mention in the current bankruptcy of "standards of membership and leadership," I am not clear whether those references are to the particular publication of which I am aware, or some abstract concept of "standards." (Some time ago, when the need to have a copy of this document would be helpful, a copy appeared in the mail to me, anonymously. A volunteer who knew someone, who knew someone, etc. seems to be the source of the document being sent to me.) If one offends a Scout Executive, or Council President, ENOUGH, (and perhaps there other individuals in a council's hierarchy one can offend to trigger such a result), one may receive a letter (approved by National, as I understand it), stating, in effect: "Membership is a privilege and not a right." "The Boy Scouts Of America has determined that you do not meet its standards of membership and leadership, and is revoking your membership in the Boy Scouts Of America." "You have the right to appeal this decision within 30 days of the date of this letter. Send your appeal request and any pertinent documents to ...." You will receive a refund check in the amount of the dues you last paid. (Insult to injury.) No statement of the grounds for your dismissal will be provided. Ever. And thereby, you will be BRANDED as gay, atheist, or a child abuser in your own hometown, church, community, family. "What did Tom do???' Conversation in church pew: "Where's Tom (or Mary) they are always here with their kids?" "Oh, Tom (or Mary) was thrown out of Boy Scouting." "Why?" "No one knows. He (she) won't talk about it. He (she) have just fallen off the radar." "Gee, Scouting is such a wholesome program, how could Tom (Mary) debase it so-what horrible people he/she/they are-has a criminal case been filed against Tom (Mary)? Not taking my kids over there for our usual Friday's sleepover." (I have no problem with gays or atheists-everyone is just trying to get through the day. Those folks are not my life, but as I won't let anyone think for me, I ask not that anyone let me think for them.) But branded as a child abuser? People tend to think the worst of things, so get thrown out of Scouting, folks will think you are a child abuser. Even if you are a CPA questioning some accounting issue? Lovely. Does not "Trustworthy" apply to National? (Well, that it has filed bankruptcy on account of its decades of lies about child abuse-so, apparently not.) What is the point of the principles of an organization if not to be followed by not only its adherents, but also the organization? And expulsion all because you questioned a council budget item that embarrassed some pea-brained volunteer or Scout Executive. And because you volunteered as a scout leader to help your child. If you think that a long scouting career of distinguished, meritorious service will protect you. It won't. I know this to be true. The BSA is a Congressionally chartered corporation. That is rare. National titles itself as the "Boy Scouts of America." One would think that between "Congressionally" and "America," a banished scout volunteer would be accorded the rights accorded in the Bill of Rights: To know the charges against you. Nope To present evidence (You can, but as you have no idea of the charges, what evidence do you present to rebut unknown charges? Dutch oven recipes? A list of great restaurants in Gatlinburg? The phone directory of Lower Manhattan?) To appear at your hearing and confront witnesses? Nope. Can't do that. You won't even know when or where the hearing will be held. Or who constitutes the tribunal. Or even if they ever meet or read anything you submit. (Read Arthur Koestler's Darkness At Noon, where the accused are taken into a basement, but shot in the back of the head on their way down the steps to the basement. The accused don't even get the benefit of torture.) And scouting volunteers whose membership is revoked also won't get the right to speak a single word in their defense. To confront your accusers? Nope. You will never know who you offended, or why they were offended. There is NOTHING in National's "Standards of Membership and Leadership" which accords you any legal rights whatsoever. So, if you receive such a letter, get a copy of Franz Kafka's The Trial. Read it twice. I have. It accurately portrays just what you are up against. National has structured the "membership game" that, win, lose, or draw, National always WINS! "Let them hate, as long as they FEAR." (Some French King whose name escapes me.) "Work for free, send money, don't question." Compliant and complacent volunteers, donating money, are welcome. The troublesome, well, National has its ways. I expect that if the same group of National staffers now employed retain their jobs after the bankruptcy, there will be membership retribution against identifiable posters on this forum. It seems to be National's way. (As I write this, I am looking at two Banker's boxes of files pertaining to the membership revocation war in my council from some time ago which my spouse wants me to cull. Now they are all so relevant again.) And they will not be culled. It is a question of "finding one's backbone." Most folks avoid conflict and dissention-it is unpleasant-but for some, when their line is crossed, they stand up regardless of consequences, and thereby become the leaders National espouses to create but also crushes if their efforts are just too successful toward National. Can National FIRE ME? Yep. And it won't care a whit. All I can say: "Beware the Mother that eats her children." And so, National lays down another layer of "Scouting Tradition." Deceit.

Considering the focus brought to the CH 11, Act 5, thread today by a mere court ruling or two, were the judge to so oblige...daily...the problem would be solved. (Sorry-not even worth 2 cents.)

Knowledgeable folks in my council, for over 20 years, have discussed how we could run the council with only a Registrar, and save about $3 million in payroll. Our SE earns is paid out about 10% of the entire annual budget. The rest of the council staff is paid about another 10%. Think of that ratio. Our SE is paid to supervise a minimum wage person that the minimum wage person is paid to do their entire job. And to whom is the SE beholden? National. National determines whether the SE is "offered" to a particular council for employment (big council means better salary-not play ball with National and you'll be sent to a smaller council-and financially punished). National determines the amount of salary (I understand that National sets that, or perhaps "suggests" to the volunteer senior officers). National sends its "commissioned" SE's to councils where they have no family ties, history, or inherent loyalty. SE's go where they are sent. This ensures the SE is beholden to National for the SE's professional life. Behave, and you are sent to a beautiful location, sound finances...fall out of favor and you are sent to Illinois or Iowa (sorry, Illinois and Iowa-but it is just corn). And thereby, National maintains control of the "independent" LC's.

I draw distinction between Scouting (the Movement of Baden-Powell and Hillcourt), and the "commissioned," senior administration of National (running a business franchise operation out of Irving). Many of us are deeply committed to Scouting. And hope it does survive. I have nothing but contempt and disgust for those at National who have brought Scouting to its current plight. I have little doubt that were National's business conducted more like a typical business, instead of the secretive, low transparency organization that it is and has been historically, things would be different. But it is clear now, that senior National staff have failed to carry their responsibilities to the near destruction of not only National, the business, but Scouting itself (as there is only a remote possibility that Scouting, as we know it, will survive post National's bankruptcy). As to the specifics of your post, all of the registered trademarks, service marks, copyrights, etc, National's intellectual property rights are assets of National, and if a Ch 7 is the final outcome, those intellectual property rights will be sold to raise funds for distribution to creditors. One would have to purchase the rights to "Scouts USA" to be able to use that phrase. So, what can the buyer of National's intellectual property do with it? Well, considering the practice of "catch and kill" in the news recently, the buyer might just put all of it in a file cabinet, never to be used again. Or, some of it might be used by a group espousing the joy of RV'ing by creating local RV clubs under the banner of: "Travel the roads with Scouts USA." And so, handing it back to senior National staff? The same folks who, by inadvertence, negligence, or willful and wanton conduct lost it all ONCE? Why? What duty do those of us who love Scouting have to entrust its life to those who have nearly killed it? (And, not by a single idiot act, but by generations of senior staff over decades implementing a policy that has brought us all to this.) Why? Because they have learned their lesson and will get it right next time? J'Accuse. National's senior staff need to be ushered into the night with their pensions and just go away. The Second World War, Vol. 6 Triumph and Tragedy Theme of the Volume How the Great Democracies Triumphed, and so Were able to Resume The Follies Which Had so Nearly Cost Them Their Life --Winston S. Churchill How much more Folly can Scouting withstand?

This is just a d*mning analysis. And, upon the move to Irving, someone had to point to a set of plans and say, "This is where the IV files go." And was that room a key-card access only room? "We have to make this a secure area." "Why?" "Can't tell you." "Oh the tangled web we weave, when we first practice to deceive."

Methodists: 3,670 cases. At the top of the list. I guess the question is whether there were only 3 Methodist cases in the last 10 years, as was stated in the article.

Back a few pages in this thread, I recall the Methodists were at the top of the list of number of cases.

Has Steven Scheid's April 28, 2021 article in United Methodist Insight been noted or discussed here? https://um-insight.net/in-the-church/local-church/sexual-abuse-in-um-scout-troops-is-nearly-non-existent-let-s/ One paragraph particularly caught my attention: The fact that one in six males have been sexually abused increases the perception that there must be thousands of incidents of sexual abuse within Scout units. However, the cumulative rate of reported sexual abuse within United Methodist sponsored units over the past ten years is 0.001 percent. With more than 300,000 youth involved annually, there were only three claims. Of course, even one incident is too many. Is this correct?

I don't like the weight of Nalgenes either, nor the wide mouth as it is too easy to spill too much if bumped over, however, some have noted that they are easier to work with in winter if water becomes frozen or slushy.

In the case of the time barred claims, they not only ripened, but expired. The purpose of bankruptcy is to discharge valid, enforceable debts. For individual debtors, virtually all their claims are known as of the date they file bankruptcy. These are claims known as of the date of filing. For corporate debtors, such as a manufacturer of trucks, there is a greater likelihood of claims arising in the future based on facts existing prior to the date of filing of the bankruptcy. I think these would be based on warranties extended, or a tort theory, like negligence or products liability. The buyer of a debtor's manufactured truck before the bankruptcy filing, cannot know as of the date of the bankruptcy filing that the axle will fail a year after the filing causing an accident, can hardly be expected to make its claim a year in advance of the accident. Some provision for those claims must be made in the bankruptcy proceeding but I do not know how that is handled. These are a class of claims likely to arise post-filing, and though the identity of the claimants and amount of the claims is unknown as of the filing of the bankruptcy, the liability is statistically known and reserves are carried on the debtor's books. Time barred Claimants in National's bankruptcy are a whole other type. These claims arose from facts occurring prior to the filing, and those Claimants' rights were barred by Statues of Limitation prior to the filing. Apparently, these Claimants are included on the chance, or in the expectation, that some day, the statues of limitation applicable to some or all of them will be reopened. I think that happening is extremely remote-but yet it happened in some states. I cannot recall a situation where a statute of limitations was reopened for potential claimants. There may be cases others here are aware of, but I am not. I think it is rare. National's strategy may be that "if we include the time barred claims in the bankruptcy and they recover something, the likelihood of statutes of limitation being reopened is even more remote, and the Discharge Order will bar their claims." There is some merit in this argument. And it even serves as a rationale for insurers to contribute to a procedure that compensates time barred claimants. But it only goes so far. Insurers are the keepers of the country's statistics. Their interest will stop when the cost exceeds their projected cost of fighting tooth and nail. To the extent that time barred Claimants are afforded a vote, it should be a weighted vote. Claimants with legally enforceable claims against wealthy LC's, and CO's should receive a proportionately greater number votes relative to time barred Claimants. At least that would afford a balance between their differences in position.

I am not familiar with that case having come late to this forum, but it sounds like the court held that the statute of limitations was tolled for the period of concealment. This is a common doctrine, applicable in cases of those out of the country, in military service, minors, and where a cause of action is concealed. I doubt the court held that the the statute of limitations was no longer applicable. If you recall the citation, I'll check it out. So, consider the case of a scout abused in one state, whose council's office is in another, in 1955. Perhaps 3 potentially different statutes of limitation are applicable: 1. the scout's home state SOL to the abuser and CO, the LC's home state's SOL to the LC, and, New Jersey's SOL to National. That is exactly what should be done because that approach follows the actual law in effect as applicable to each scout. There is no justice in denying an Abuse Victim the benefit of a favorable SOL relative to him because National managed to find itself charged by so many that it is too troublesome and cumbersome to figure out the actual applicable law and accord that Abuse Victim the benefit of that law. The other problem is that we have a court just making up a rule. Every Supreme Court nominee faces the gauntlet of questions about whether the judiciary "makes law" or "finds the law." Those hearings are intense. The problem with that procedure is that it is post vote, and if applying the applicable SOL at that point results in no recovery for that Claimant Voter, it will not undo their vote, the die already having been cast. This would not be such a concerning issue were the suspected number of Claimants with potentially time-barred claims some small percentage of the total. But some posters have expressed/speculated perhaps as many as 40,000 or more. That's about 50% and likely will drive the election. And further, they will be voting based on their hopes of turning a phantom recovery into cash.