SiouxRanger

Sorry. From now to October 15, printing 24/7, I figure 63.6 pages per SECOND to get the job done. So, 64 presses running at 1 page per second is more likely. And to have time to assemble, package, address, and add postage, probably 130 presses. This is a VERY BIG JOB. So, the solo practitioners who see 5,000, or 10,000 Plan packages show up at their door, to have to add a cover letter, repackage them, add postage and get them back in the mail...well, that is where some of the 40% fees are going. Gotta go, the mouse committee wants me to put a bell on the cat.

Apparently, the exceptions are hidden in the footnotes to the principles. It would be easier to follow if all the footnotes were to be revealed at once. "And, as he gradually realized that Watergate was a criminal conspiracy: 'The cliche about the other shoe dropping is no longer used or useable. We are dealing with a centipede. Shoes will continue to drop.'" -The Voice Of Reason: Eric Sevareid's CBS Commentaries, by T. Harrell Allen, p. viii.

I was doing the print job math when it was mentioned that the Plan was over a thousand pages. Whew! 165,000 reams of paper. (I worked in a print shop decades ago.)

There is no defense for National in how it handled all this. And to conceal information from an expert acting on National's behalf, where that information, if provided, would clearly have changed the expert's testimony-that is a lie by concealment. A lie nonetheless.

Leave No Trace compliant?

Hallelujah. And very complex. About 14 levels of rank the cub and boy scout programs. (Arrow of Light might be 15) Many requirements for achieving each rank. Merit badges: required, elective, alternate required merit badges. Many merit badge requirements. (Some requirements for required merit badges have 90 time requirements-DO NOT MISS THOSE!) All manner of non-rank awards, achievements, certificates, training. (BSA lifeguard, kayaking, OA, etc.) Lots of advancement record keeping. Scout account and unit financial record keeping. A single program where the adults have to have the skills to deal with scouts of kindergarten age through seniors in high school. And many age groups attend the same meetings, events, etc., requiring adults with likely little training in recognizing and interacting with scouts at different age and maturity levels, sometimes having to shift gears many times in a single evening or scouting event. Youth Protection rules, Guide to Safe Scouting rules, boating event rules, all the various training-weather, wilderness first aid, CPR training, National Camp School, recommended/required training for each unit position--retraining as various training certifications expire... High Adventure bases-a whole other level of complexity: adult leader required training, minimum age requirements, medical forms, body weight to height requirements, physical training.... Reminds me of a Robert Heinlein quote, the last line of which is: "Specialization is for insects."

Aren't attorneys entitled to several days to review documents prior to a hearing? That they get notice of a hearing and a list of the matters to be heard? Holding a hearing on documents filed just minutes previously sets a horrible precedent.

And what penalty if an attorney violates an ethics rule? If the attorney gets to keep the 40% fee, the attorney likely does not need a law license any longer, huh?

"Oh To Be A Child Again." -Jimmy Rogers. "One and one make $7 billion dollars..." At some point we will have to go back to being adults and to divvy up $7 billion dollars. (At least in our own minds.)

Gives me whiplash and all the other baboons look down on me when I try to teach them shorthand..

HEY! I've spent a lifetime with raw knuckles and still can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.

Sounds like the Judge did lose control of her courtroom. Lots of things are going on in this courtroom that are very strange. A word or two of negative feedback from the Judge after an attorney has had their say could do wonders to reign in further argument (and pleadings) along the same lines. With so much at stake, maybe not. No matter the outcome at trial level, attorneys MUST get their pleadings and argument into the Court Record to preserve it for use on appeal. Just because a Judge listens patiently, does not mean that the Judge accepts what they are hearing. At some point, all of the motion hearings will come to an end and the Judge will start to make rulings. And there could be a number of them in rapid succession, and have significant impact. Any error that arguably changes the outcome is "reversible error." And, perhaps a basis that an appeals court reverses the trial court's ruling(s) and sends the case back to the bankruptcy (trial level) court, to pick up the bankruptcy process where the appellate court indicates reversible error was made. That National thought its Ch 11 would be wound up by the end of August (was it?) is ludicrous. National will be lucky to see this done by August 2022. "I love it when a plan comes together." -Hannibal, The A Team

Well, I'd give him an Honorary Notary Public, and for the appropriate fee, status as a "Member in Good Standing of the National Geographic Society."

That makes perfect sense. A lawyer "not being prepared to speak" who reads from a script...Hmmmmm... Who does he think he is fooling?

Law is like a game of chess-except that the number and power of the pieces change constantly. I remember a M.A.S.H. episode where Hawkeye and Trapper were playing a game with cards, some chess pieces, and some checkers. Somebody asked, "What are you playing?" "Double Cranko." "How do you play?" "There are no rules."

We're 7 days into more bankruptcy drama-you had your chance to get into the EIN mud wrestle tussle-it ended days ago.

So, the Coalition attorneys want to wrap it up and get their % fees because they realize that they truly can "get by" in America on 40% of $1.88 billion-so why wait?

So, the significance of this is that the BSA admitted that its valuation of all of the claims is $24± billion, and that BSA admits it is offering $1.88 billion? 7.8±%

Yes. I think you are right. It ain't over until we've come to the end of forever.

Disturbing that the Judge would ask such a question because it cannot be answered with finality IF, after the answer is given, other conditions are allowed to change. Negotiation is an iterative process. Demand, response, amended demand, amended response... If it is interpreted as the Judge's solicitation for an amended response, fine, but if interpreted in the sense of, "You insurance folks just can't be pleased, no matter what." Well, that is where I see a problem.

I agree with you entirely. The model (reasoning and justification) for contingency fees does not fit National's bankruptcy. It seems to me that an attorney could file 500 claims and then do nothing-just let the big players duke it out and wait for a paycheck at the end.

You need not apologize to anyone. You have concerns, you are expressing them, and others understand your concerns or just don't get it and pounce on you. This is a hideously complicated situation. I doubt than anyone truly understands it.

You have my confidence. And your loyalty to Scouting Movement is clear to me. We are all passengers on a crashing plane hoping for a soft landing. Illegitimi non carborundum. A saying quoted to General Joe Stilwell.

I once saw a guy sued by a bank for over $2 million. His defense fees to his attorney approached $50,000. The bank agreed to pay the him $5,000 and to drop the case against him. The client was ecstatic. "They admitted that they were wrong." (Having spent a net of $45,000 to get the bank to make that admission.) The human element of the law trumps legal argument all of the time. People change their minds, and then the entire legal outcome of a case turns on a dime. Some poster previously noted that the Harvard attorneys had no appreciation of the human element in this case. And that is their weakness of an Ivory Tower education: they do not understand people. National's bankruptcy is incredibly complex. The 30 or 40 national legal bankruptcy super experts certainly find it complex. Just consider the range of the debate and objections over just about every aspect of the procedure. And so, there are many posters here, and guests just listening in, hoping to learn about National's bankruptcy and how it might affect their unit, their district, or council. In all likelihood, they have Zero knowledge of bankruptcy, little knowledge of abuse claims or their history, and probably marginal knowledge of the Scouting program. They can be commended for making the effort to stay informed. And so, I have strived in my posts to explain the legal issues, the applicable legal principles and rules. So the folks can understand and assess how this whole situation affects their situation in Scouting.. Personal attacks on this forum toward posters who have personal concerns, and even emotional ones, are totally unwarranted. They may not understand how the process works, and need explanation. And clearly, if YOU are the person responsible for explaining, if your audience does not understand you, it is YOUR failure, not your audience's failure.

It can be a huge amount of money, no doubt. But in the strange math world of the law, it makes sense. (Not that I agree with it entirely, but there is a logic to it.) In contingency cases, the lawyer evaluates a contingency case based on the amount of time the lawyer anticipates will be expended, AND the costs that the lawyer will advance to handle the case. ("Advancing costs" means that the lawyer is paying for the costs of court filing fees, service of summons fees, deposition fees, copying costs, experts witness fees, travel expenses of expert witnesses, office staff payroll, office rent, on-line legal research fees, and everything else related to handing the case and moving it forward. In my community, the typical costs advanced by an attorney handling a medical malpractice claim is $150,000. And though the fee agreement between the attorney and the client provides that the client is responsible for all those fees, clients never (a strong word in the law-so perhaps a few have) reimburse the attorney for this fees and expenses. It is a big decision for an attorney to accept representation of a medical malpractice case. Not quite as risky taking on a personal injury case (auto accident). But the costs there can still hit $25,000. Normally, contingent fee cases are taken at 33.33% contingent fee, and if an appeal is filed, the fee goes to 40%. It appears that the abuse claims started at 40% for fees-that is high. If that includes handling all appeals (and I expect there will be many), then maybe it is on par with the typical contingent fees charged. And there are many times lawyers get it wrong. The invest hundreds of hours in handling a contingent fee case, expend tens of thousands of dollars for expenses and costs, and recover nothing. So, if attorneys handling contingent fee cases make big money today, they could well lost partially big money tomorrow. There is one other very important aspect of the legal system in our country. Anyone can go to virtually any lawyer, even a solo practitioner, and file a lawsuit against any entity, including the largest corporations in the country, and COMPEL them to appear in court and respond to your legal claim. Think about that for a few minutes. Got a claim against Putin. You get a radioactive cocktail. And die. Got a claim against National, it has to appear in court and answer up to your claim. If your attorney has $750,00 or $2-$10 million in the bank from prior contingent fee cases won, to fund litigation against National, you have a lawyer with financial clout to hold National to account. Clearly, lawyers with a successful contingent fee practice, end their career very well off, but without them, most injured folks won't ever have legal representation to pursue a claim against the powerful and wealthy because they won't be able to find an attorney who has has huge money from prior cases won to finance their case. I have seen attorneys reduce their 1/3rd fee when a case settles quickly without a huge expenditure of costs to fund the case. Doesn't look like that is going to happen here.