SiouxRanger

I misstated my practices. If any vehicle fell behind for some reason, I slowed down until all caught up. Convoying as we practiced it was slower than a single vehicle driving at legal limits. Slowing for others to catch up, however, caused me some concern, as I am not comfortable driving below the speed of other traffic. More-a lot more. For over 24 years, I've attended every troop meeting (less 3 or 4), every campout, troop activity, and summer camp (less 3 or 4), attended Roundtables, held District and Council level positions, been Chair of cub summer camps, cub weekend campouts, and been heavily involved in monthly work days at the local camp, NCAP team member (and I read the entire binder of rules), Wood Badge, etc. AND UNTIL MY FIRST POST on this topic, I NEVER HEARD of a prohibition on convoying to scouting events. So, the first senior attorney partner I worked for, when some legal matter got into a "sticky wicket" would look at me and ask, "How did we get into this BOX?" Truly, yes. Why? And I ask that question on convoying. "Why have I, so heavily involved in Scouting, not only with my kids working through the program, but also being a unit leader for Cubs and Scouts, District Chairperson and chair of other District camping events, Council Board Member, NCAP team member, member of Council subcommittees with a number of currently serving scoutmasters, and having spent dozens of lunches with the scoutmaster members of the camp work crew…having taken all the training National suggests/requires me to take…WHY have I not heard of the prohibition on convoying?" So, I will canvass our troop leaders and ask if they have ever heard of such a prohibition and advise them that they are not to caravan. Additionally, that they should make sure that each vehicle has a list of cell phone numbers of all the other vehicles headed to the event, so that if a problem arises they can stay in contact and get help. Additionally, I think it prudent that all vehicles follow the same route. So, if a vehicle breaks down, it is somewhere ahead, or behind, and easy to get to. That a vehicle might be 20 miles off the route taken by other vehicles creates chaos.

That is the hard part. Never had that happen. I had to anticipate light changes and a green light in the distance, well, I'd slow down to make sure we all had to stop. I am not saying it was easy-it was not. Very stressful. Sometimes the light was so short that the whole convoy did not make it through and we'd pull onto the shoulder for the rest to catch up. I'd only do that if very low traffic, etc. If not, then I'd proceed at just at legal limit so folks could catch up.

Well, as to cost, it depends on just how far a scout moves through the program. Having 3 scouts who earned Eagle and a number of Philmont treks, and having helped numerous other scouts borrow or purchase gear over 20+ years, some truths have appeared: In a scout's early career, they usually get by with their existing clothes, heavy duty shoes, family camping type sleeping bags, blankets, rain coats, and such. It is already owned, heavy, bulky, adequate for troop car camping, cabin camping, or situations where in the event of really inclement weather, scouts can resort to the shelter of cabins or vehicles. They only need to be warm (or cool), dry, fed, etc. As the scout faces more challenging camping, where better equipment is necessary for comfort or safety, they become aware of the need for better gear: lighter, more durable, more water resistant/proof, more comfortable, warmer, more wicking, more UV resistant/proof, more wind-resistant, repairable in the field, and so on. This is where increasing cost comes in. And those costs can be phased in over a scout's career. Being in the northern half of the country winters are considerably colder than southern climes, there is a pattern of how folks have acquired gear. And the pattern is quite variable, but some general trends. First, they tend to purchase better sleeping bags for warmth, better boots, a warmer coat, or rain gear. In all likelihood, none of these will be suitable for a Philmont trek, but they are an improvement. Second, scouts look to buying a decent pack. In my experience, a decent pack is the one expense that needs be made only once if done right. (Warning, big digression:) I am an external frame person/advocate/fanatic. In my youth, that's all there were for packs of any size adequate to carry a winter's campout worth of gear. They had to be big volume because winter gear is bulky. Kelty was THE pack at the time. I currently carry a Dana Design K2 Loadmaster. (Dana Designs has other models of likely the same utility.) They are available on eBay from time to time-either well below initial retail or at or above initial retail. Mine was purchased at retail 20 years ago for $300. I easily carried 65 pounds at Philmont. (Why that much, is another seminar). Backpacker pack of the year in 2012±? I like external frame packs because: I can grab the frame to pick it up to put it on, it holds its shape empty, it leans against a tree neatly, and has better ventilation across the back when worn. I own 3, and folks in my troop have purchased another 4. Since all those years ago, internal frame packs have progressed a great deal. At the end of the day, I choosing a backpack, first, it has to fit the body of the Scout, that is, length of torso (and the more adjustable the pack is for the Scout's growth, the better). Second, it has to have the volume to carry the gear needed. Winter gear is BULKY-needs more volume. Third, it has to be comfortable. (Fourth, you'll need a rain cover for it. I do not rely on a "waterproof pack." I want a waterproof rain cover-which I can use to cover myself, if necessary.) Also, perhaps a tent, if the troop does not provide them. Third, senior scouts headed to Philmont or another high adventure experience may well replace a good deal of all their prior gear. Generally looking to reduce weight. As a scout progresses to more challenging adventures, they not only begin to recognize the limitations of their lower-grade gear, but also recognize the necessity of better gear. The good news is that by the time scouts get to that point, they are heavily involved in the program, the adventure, and it is clear that the expense is justified.

What would "restricted" merit badges be? Thanks.

And I will just have add: When things go really bad in the outback, and your life depends on it (the news has stories weekly of folks who have died), having MASTERY of a skill is potentially lifesaving. And if not saving your life, will make a stressful situation more comfortable. Louis Pasteur's quote "Chance favors the prepared mind" means that the better prepared and more knowledgeable you are, the more you'll be able to take advantage of any chance opportunities or observations. Once, headed into a federal wilderness in winter time, the rangers, after looking at our gear said we passed and could go in. Knowing the difficult decisions rescuers faced in crisis, I told him, if a crisis, come look for us last. We will be OK. (Well, and not knowing the future crisis, maybe that doomed us, but we were confident of our skills.) And, many times merely having confidence in one's ability, allows one emotionally to continue on to solve an unknown crisis, that without that confidence would have caused them to hesitate and be lost. THAT is what Scouting did for me.

Interesting comment, presents the question: is Scouting an "experience" or "learning (skills mastery)?" "Experience" implies: "Go through the steps, complete them in some measure of demonstrated competency of skills and you are done." (Whether you remember them tomorrow or not.) "Learning" implies: "You've made 8 failed attempts and now you've demonstrated the skill 3 times perfectly-you've learned. Come back tomorrow and if you can do it again, you've mastered it and passed." An anecdote: While on that camp staff in 1969, the waterfront director at an evening staff meeting, asked me if I could put bow lines on all of the 20 camp canoes down at the waterfront. He said, "I don't want rope just tied on, I want ropes eye-spliced on to the front, and end splices on the tag ends. Do you know how to do that?" "Yes, I do." I slipped out of the meeting, (I was a minor nobody), went to the commissary, cut a number of lengths of manila rope for the job, and went to the waterfront. My flashlight, attracting billions of mosquitos, I shut it off…hmmm…lovely…I eye-spliced 20 bow lines in the dark, by touch. I returned to the staff meeting saying nothing. The waterfront director came up to me at some point and asked when I thought I could get the bow lines put on the canoes. "It is done." That is mastery. I don't expect a scout to be quite that skilled, but they at least have to get it right once, and then once again after some interlude.

So, a few observations: Comment 1: Back in 1969 and 1970, I was under age 18, and counseled merit badges both years. About a year ago, I asked my camp director, me being curious how it was I could counsel merit badges being under age 18, said, "we knew that you knew what you were doing, so if you approved a scout's completion of a merit badge, we (adults) signed off on the approval." Hmmm. On the one hand, I did know my skills dead-bang-cold, and I did not approve anyone who had not demonstrated that they could actually do the skill. (And, being a naive kid who knew his skills, I had no concept of "approving the unskilled" to get them out the door.) Camping, pioneering, knife & ax, fire-building, etc…camp craft stuff. AND, I was hired for the summer camp staff position by a middle level Council Scout Professional who well-knew my age. So, I was definitely hired to counsel Scoutcraft merit badges being under age 18. Comment 2: Having attended summer camps with my sons for over 20 years, I have been impressed (appalled) by the lack of knowledge of the summer camp staff regarding their merit badge assignments. I volunteer at the local camp to mentor summer camp staff to do what can be done to give them a head start. Many are barely knowledgeable. We do what we can. Comment 3: Our local summer camp has moved from 6 weeks of summer camp to 4 weeks over the last 3 years. Attendance has dropped significantly. Maybe by 30%. Our Camp Directors over the last few years have had a difficult time finding staff. A 4 week paid stint at summer camp does not fill a summer, leaving about half a summer unemployed. Summer camp salaries, being what they are, really low, don't make up for half an unpaid summer. So, potential skilled staff go elsewhere. So, our Camp Directors have hired under age 18 staff so that the "show may go on." I've read the Leader and SPL summer camp evaluations, and the number two complaint is that the staff were not knowledgeable. Food issues was number one. Our Council SE's salary and benefits is about 10% of the Council Budget.

The thought here being that National is surreptitiously passing liability for injuries from the Council to volunteer adults with little or inadequate training without their knowledge of the shifting of risk?

It appears that the Eagle Scout Service Project Fundraising Application and the Procedures And Limitations page are "self-contained," that is, comply with all the provisions of both and the Eagle Scout Candidate has fully complied with all rules. I note that the Application requires Council approval. The text in both the Application and the Procedures mention "donations," with little discussion on how much effort is expended to "fund raise." So, I'd treat the cash donation as being the result of "fund raising," complete the Application accordingly, submit it for Council approval. If approved, the Eagle Scout Candidate is done with the issue. The law has a main "bug-a-boo," (well, thousands…), and that is, it is impossible to craft rules that cover every possible contingency. Human activity always seems to present situations that were unanticipated. If the rules are well-crafted, the unanticipated situations are rare. In any event, unanticipated situations do present themselves and need to be dealt with appropriately. So what is "appropriately?" Our assumption is that we have a legitimate issue: An Eagle Service Project. So, there MUST be a way to accept donations and get the Project approved. First, you want to provide full information so that decision-maker has all the pertinent information that you have. In current jargon the word in use is "transparency." I do not like that word because the statement, "You're not being transparent," connotes intentional concealment with evil intent. Maybe the case in some government and political matters, but not so in many other things. @T2Eagle has great suggestions. It states the facts as they are: "Mr./Mrs./Ms. X is donating $900± which covers all costs. Unsolicited." You've done all that you can do and provided all the information that there is. Now the ball is in the Council's court. Let it approve, deny, or ask for clarification. The law is all about "pressure." So, the pressure is on the Council to deal with the Application as submitted. The immediate "pressure" is that the Council does not want to disappoint nor discourage an Eagle Candidate from continuing with their Project and WANTS to approve Eagle projects and increase its numbers of Eagle Scouts reported in its annual reports.

Today's scouts don't have 10% of the skills I have from my scout youth days of 60 years ago. And, granted, who NEEDS to know how to make fire, purify water, navigate in rugged backcountry, read a compass (what is that?), read a road map, build a shelter, signal for help, teach your cat to speak French (well, maybe not that), sharpen a knife, tie knots (and bends, splices, whipping (gee-a number of ways to do that (Clifford Ashley) and lashings)), pitch a tent… BUT, all those out-dated and antiquated skills have made me extremely confident that I can take care of myself and reason my way to good decisions. Can I build a fire in the pouring rain? Yes. Do I know WHY I can build a fire in the pouring rain? YES. And that is why Scouting is valuable.

convoy so that if a vehicle has a failure, we can still get the youth/adult to the train on time. And the wounded vehicle can sort out repairs later. 4. Things happen. Run out of gas. Bathroom stops. 5. Lead MUST know the number of vehicles following, and MUST have a good sense, well perfect, of what the last vehicle looks like headlight wise. 6. A written list of cell phone numbers distributed to all drivers, and if not, MUST exchange cell phone numbers to lead and tail drivers. 7. Tail driver NEVER, NEVER, NEVER, passes the second to last driver. The tail driver is always, ALWAYS the last driver. Some driver stops for any reason, the tail driver always remains the tail driver. The tail driver never passes any vehicle in the convoy. We have had times, rarely, where the convoy got quite spread out and the lead pulled onto the Interstate shoulder for folks to catch up. A questionable thing to do, but depending on circumstances, traffic load, sunshine, etc., not as risky as might be thought. It is a lot to ask of the lead, but if everyone is paying attention it does work. HOWEVER, in light of the information I've learned on this thread, I have to reexamine the wisdom of convoys. (On one convoy to summer camp, a dad, once hitting the interstate, disappeared at 80-85 mph., flying past everyone. Met up with him an hour later at the summer camp. Well beyond the speed limit.) My half cent's worth. (not pricing myself above that sage, the Remember guy…)

Very interesting thread. After 25 years of adult participation-never heard mention of the "no convoy" rule. As a lawyer, I've read a great deal of BSA documents on policy, 2 deep leadership, guide to safe scouting (no boomerangs, rats), stoves, liquid fuels. use of words with more than 7 syllables but less than 10 syllables, best practices to avoid plummeting space junk (NASA branded but ownership denied), bull roarers (OK-I think), coracles (nope), etc. A scouting professional once "corrected me" telling me that "scouting is not complicated." Compared to a soccer program where parent drops off child to race across field to the game and returns to the car? Parental involvement in soccer can be nil. Liability risk is less than nil. Scouting is very complicated. AND, if you get it wrong (somehow, and it is easy to do), you might end up a defendant for some abuse case and paying your own lawyer tens of thousands of dollars ultimately to be proven innocent. Try BANKRUPTCY. Seems to have worked for National. All of that sounds "simple" to me. Nope. Our troop has convoyed for my 25 years there. Though never had a vehicle incident, that is anecdotal and no basis to make policy. Much to my distress, I was always designated as the lead. Only got everyone lost once-BUT, I was following the directions precisely of someone who claimed to know what they were talking about. In our wanderings, we came across a local in the hinterland who gave us corrective directions and we made our way safely. (Sunday morning after the campout, we ran into the good smaritan in a grocery store who reminded us (M)E that "you are the lost guys I got on your way…" (Thanks.) So, if convoying, having been the lead, there are some pointers I have learned: 1. The lead is "driving for everyone." That is, my van is 5-10 vehicles long. Like driving a train. You can't run through a light nd leave the rest of the train hanging. You stop at the light. Let folks catch up. With luck all will make it through the next light. 2. Everyone needs to know where they are going in case they get separated from the convoy. It all becomes a massive flow chart, taking into account all the unlikely events and imponderables. (On one convoy, a van lost some electrical connection under the dash. We all stopped, the driver's brother who happened to work at an auto parts place in the town where the failure occurred, sent the right part and an hour later, the ENTIRE troop was on its way. 3. If a vehicle suffers some failure, if all are on their own-no convoy, then that vehicle is on its own. To get to the train taking our treks to Philmont, we ALWAYS

We solved the "3x the work" cooking issue by camping next to the parking lot and ordering out-by patrols, of course. Separate patrol checks. Scouts can't cook, but at least "Thrifty" is a work-in-progress.

Nothing. Not a % of any fundraiser. Some FOS events were held at Pack and Troop events, but at least a decade ago. FOS is defunct in out council-has been for at least a decade.

Rockwell was a genius. Well quoted. He turned "pigment into principle."

On so many forums, the word "liberal" is used in a negative, derisive, derogatory sense. And the term for the opposite of "liberal" is…? That term does not seem to be used at all. I am not interested in starting an interminable political debate, just to obtain folks' definitions of "liberal" and whatever the antonym is ("conservative?")

What's a "liberal?"

I have to say, just how many binders of rules do we need? I drop my kid off at an open field to participate in a soccer game. In full view of hundreds of parents. The event lasts an hour or so. And I pick my kid up. And all is done. In full view of many adults. (Actually, I NEVER left my kid, but for argument's sake…) SCOUTING (activities), on the other hand, encompass a wide range of situations. Friday nights to Sunday mornings, in remote campsites. Plenty of opportunities for abuse situations. Quiet, dark, secluded… My point is that this whole situation needs to be examined and reduced to a simple set of rules that is memorable…so that all of us can instantly recognize violations. I'm a lawyer. 50 pounds of rules. Fine. I can do that. Three tons of rules. No problem. But for BSA volunteers, we need to simplify it down to something memorable. "Catchy."

Clipping corners off Totin Chip card for infractions was the practice in my troop as a youth 60+ years ago. Don't recall it happening, though. Inattention to sharps safety is rather self-regulating; I learned a lot nursing cuts due to X-acto knives.

Curia advisari vult or c.a.v., a Latin legal term meaning "the court wishes to be advised" In this situation, I think it means that the court is considering awaiting the Supreme Court ruling in Purdue Pharma, and thereby "be advised."

I wear my Eagle knot, and none others. (Not even sure what knots I might have earned, though, District Award of Merit, and Silver Beaver, are among them.) It is all about the youth. Not about me. I have at least 8 Eagle mentor pins. (Our troop has had the practice of only having an Eagle presenting a single Mentor Pin. Eagles one per I wear none of them. Those who need or want to know, they know.

Well, with a series of notice, that gives "fair warning." But as a plain old lawyer, my plain old clients pay just no attention…and things just "roll over."

Never let anyone auto renew. Ever. You lose control in that automatic charges will be incurred without notice, even if a scout has dropped out.

Nothing wrong with "Practice to Master," THEN test. The test should not be a practice session. Little is simple or obvious if one truly understands the skill-has mastered it. "Craftsmanship." Journeyman, not apprentice. "If I don't practice one day, I know it; two days, the critics know it; three days, the public knows it." --Jascha Heifetz (I thought Vladimir Horowitz said that. A Google search ALSO attributed it to Louis Armstrong-enough searching…it is the thought that counts.) As a BSA certified angling instructor, I STILL practice my fishing knots. They are inherently confusing and I don't use them enough to stay fresh. How many bowline style knots are there? (I can think of 6 offhand, not counting mirror images of them-that would push it to 12.)

The Ranger Marathon is a huge inspirational goal to many Philmont Rangers, though its course and times recorded for its passage seem to be obscured in fog. There are varied discussions of--course, route, times, and pack weights carried (more or less). The start point seems to be accepted by all as the camp Dan Beard, but the end point seems to vary over time from Kit Carson Museum, to Abreu (New Abreu), to Carson Meadows. Anyone who has first experiences running the Ranger Marathon, I encourage to post. Thanks.